Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 15 - Official Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Watched it this morning. Not the best Daima episode by any means, but good lord are some of these reactions overblown.

Hybis trading the third eye for a stupid looking hat is great. He's still easily the best new character in the series, and his scene here feels appropriately DB in that it comically shows the protagonists' worst enemy is arguably themselves, not who they're fighting. Also liked Dabura's scheme. Just about everything that referenced the episode's title was good stuff, to say the least.

As for why they didn't immediately go Super Saiyan, contextually it's been pretty damn clear from the start that they're conserving strength for what they presume to be the next Tamagami, or whatever big threat lies in wait. It's also explicitly stated that their base forms as kids aren't strong enough to just effortlessly wipe out an army of Gendarmerie wielding a whole artillery of stun guns both large and small, so the implication is that they're trying to do what they can without relying on more taxing forms. In business terms, we call this a cost-benefit analysis.

That being said, I have my issues with it. Fighting Gendarmerie goons has its place, but it's safe to say we should be transitioning to the real threats at this point. Also, the fighting itself did seem overly straightforward compared to what the show previously had on offer. Whenever Goku et al. fought in prior episodes, it was interspersed with something more subversive or substantive to make it fun. What this reminds me of, and perhaps what it's inspired by, are the final areas in JRPGs where there's waves of enemies before that last string of boss fights. I'm not sure why they didn't at least encounter the Gendarmerie Force this week.

There have been better episodes in the show, and I'm hoping for a greater sense of payoff in the coming weeks, but I liked it. Although with five episodes left, it remains to be seen if the landing will be properly stuck.

[Hugo Boss]

As for why they didn't immediately go Super Saiyan, contextually it's been pretty damn clear from the start that they're conserving strength for what they presume to be the next Tamagami, or whatever big threat lies in wait. It's also explicitly stated that their base forms as kids aren't strong enough to just effortlessly wipe out an army of Gendarmerie wielding a whole artillery of stun guns both large and small, so the implication is that they're trying to do what they can without relying on more taxing forms. In business terms, we call this a cost-benefit analysis.

While conserving energy makes sense strategically, it seems inconsistent given the immediate threats they faced. If their base forms weren’t enough to handle the Gendarmerie army, it raises the question of why they wouldn’t escalate earlier, especially with the stakes being so high (Vegeta asking for a Revive Bug and such). Plus, the decision to hold back doesn’t seem like a proper ‘cost-benefit analysis’ when relying on stronger forms could have saved them time and effort against overwhelming opposition. The in-universe logic here feels a bit thin.

Anyway, I agree with your point about Hybis, his characterization continues to be a highlight of Daima. And I thought Dabra’s scheme tied into the episode’s title in a clever way. However, I still feel that the logic behind conserving strength doesn’t hold up well when considering the immediate threats they were facing in the episode.

[Mr Baggins]

While conserving energy makes sense strategically, it seems inconsistent given the immediate threats they faced. If their base forms weren’t enough to handle the Gendarmerie army, it raises the question of why they wouldn’t escalate earlier, especially with the stakes being so high (Vegeta asking for a Revive Bug and such).

Vegeta only needed a Revive Bug because he rushed in and got careless. The episode is very clear that with the strength and teamwork they had, they were largely successful against the Gendarmerie army in just their base forms. It's questionable that Goku even needed Super Saiyan at the end, though I suppose he wanted to quickly mop up the few remaining mooks there.

I don't dispute that it's somewhat manufactured tension, but I think there are actually other problems with it than what's been relentlessly argued in this thread. Not series-breaking ones, but certainly ones that diminish what the episode could've been.

[Yuji]

Super Saiyan consumes minimal energy. It's not SS2 or 3. I'm sure the 1% energy drain it comes with is worth wiping out the entire army at once, especially if they were just going to transform anyway. It's forced tension as others pointed out.

[IntangibleFancy]

I just rewatched the episode again. I think this is the first time I didn’t find an episode more enjoyable on the second or third rewatch. The final fight was still good and so was Hyubis’ scene, but it wasn’t any cooler and funnier seeing it again.

I think the only thing I could re-appreciate was seeing the silhouettes in that third eye flashback, because without that, the entire scene would have nothing cool or interesting about it. But it was a bad move making them silhouettes. Rymus wasn’t a silhouette, and neither were the two demon kings, and unless these guys all become important later on, hiding their full designs seems weird. This isn’t One Piece.

How much time do you guys think the next episode is going to devote to the rest of the soldiers? Because if that Degusu part is at the very end, then we’re looking at TWO more weeks until the plot gets where it needs to be.

Assuming 16 is mostly soldier-focused and 17 is where things get interesting then that’d leave 3 episodes left for everything to be resolved. Glorio’s betrayal, the fusion bugs, Anrisu’s plan, whatever’s happening with Degusu, Kuu and Duu fighting the gang, the dragon balls, Gomah, am i missing anything else?

[mecha3000]

So, there's something else I wanted to bring up. I'm casually into physics and when Goku (I think it was him) said it was hot, Glorio said it was because of their proximity to the sun and that getting closer to the surface would cool them down. Uh, I don't think that's how physics works? I admit I always used to think that since heat rises, that means the closer you are to the sun, the hotter it is. But I'm pretty sure that a planet's surface (Earth at least) absorbs most of the heat from the sun. Kind of like in Iron Man 1 how when Tony flew higher, his suit froze because it was colder at higher attitudes. I know Dragon Ball is not something I should be overthinking when it comes to this stuff, but it still bothered me.

My bad for that little nitpick, but like I said, I'm interested in physics and I think Glorio had it backwards. Correct me if I'm wrong. Other than that, I think right now Daima has the Star Wars prequel effect of some people blindly loving it. I don't think people will critically assess it fairly until after it wraps up. Same goes for me. I'll need to wait and see how it ends before I give a final opinion of it. But right now, it's mostly negative save for Majin Kuu and Duu, the Tamagami fights and SSJ3 Vegeta.

[StaticMania]

I'm pretty sure if you're closer to the sun...you would be hotter than if you were on Mercury's surface.

[mecha3000]

I'm pretty sure if you're closer to the sun...you would be hotter than if you were on Mercury's surface.

Well, this is Google's AI overview explanation: "The surface is generally hotter than the air because the sun's radiation directly heats the Earth's surface first, causing it to absorb more heat than the air above it, which then warms up through contact with the heated surface; essentially, the ground acts as a heat source transferring its warmth to the surrounding air."

So, that kind of confirms what I said (at least when it comes to Earth) unless the AI misread my question. Again, I know this isn't directly related to Dragon Ball (sorry, mods), but it still relates to in-universe info from Daima. So, I figured it was worth questioning in relation to real-life physics.

[nineko]

It's like putting your hand in an oven. If you keep it in the middle, you feel hot, but you can stay for a while; touching a metal element would instantly burn you instead. However, going too close to the heating element would also increase the perceived temperature. Sure the ground reflects, as your AI said, but the Sun is still the primary source. Since it's implied that the Sun is right there, I guess they were going with that interpretation.

[mecha3000]

It's like putting your hand in an oven. If you keep it in the middle, you feel hot, but you can stay for a while; touching a metal element would instantly burn you instead. However, going too close to the heating element would also increase the perceived temperature. Sure the ground reflects, as your AI said, but the Sun is still the primary source. Since it's implied that the Sun is right there, I guess they were going with that interpretation.

I guess I get what you mean, but I'm still not sure. The sun being closer to the planet would change things, but literally I just asked WHAT IF THE SUN WAS CLOSER TO EARTH, and the answer is it would be even hotter on the planet. So, I don't think that changes my point. And I'm not sure if you guys are bringing your own interpretations to this or citing real sources. Again, we're talking Dragon Ball here so I know I should chill on this, but I'm just genuinely curious.

[jjbgood]

I really want to like Daima more and I wouldnt say its bad... but ....
yeah, you know, it looks fantastic, has some nice locations and some fresh ideas... BUT...
The writing... man... its just... all over the place... It's only 20 episodes and it feels like you could cut it down to 10! So much exposition, so much wandering around in the same looking areas, every now and then a nice looking fight for a few minutes and then the same again. But with these weird filler episodes, and I don't just mean episode 13, which could be cut completely without offering anything (yes, I know Ajay likes this episode, but for me even a side adventure filler should have some character development or something to continue the story and not just be a boring break), I also mean episodes 14 and 15, which have so much filler... not story filler, but just time filler. Goku falling for 10 minutes, nobody caring about him, people staring out of windows... or, well, 20 minutes of fighting an army that could be resolved in 10 seconds if the characters weren't so terribly written. This episode was so GT in its "let's nerf the characters and make them idiots so the plot can happen" - it was painful! The last few seconds with Goku going SSJ and bombing all the soldiers away... HE COULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT ALL THE TIME! And Vegeta too. Piccolo too. There was no effort. It was just painful to watch. I really hope Daima finds its way in the last few episodes, because right now I am pissed off that they are offering me a new series with no serious villain, no obstacle to overcome, no tension whatsoever. Just a run-through for overpowered characters who have been magically wished into children to make them less powerful without making them less powerful unless the story needs them to be.
Also, Goku and Vegeta defeated the Tamagamis easily, so they are much stronger than them. But Gomah's weapons can defeat Goku and Vegeta? With that knowledge, Gomah could have defeated the Tamagamis himself and won their Dragon Balls. Such a plot hole, because it is terribly written...
If the last episodes do not get better, this series will be seen as nothing more than a DLC to the Buu saga. Just an epilogue. Nothing really important, just a few more pages in a big book. But maybe that is what Toriyama wanted. I do not know.

P.S.: The interruption for the exposition about the third eye was terrible. So out of place. So poorly woven into the story. The author completely failed there.

[JulieYBM]

I'm still wondering why Ootsuka Akio did the narration for the Third Eye flashback. Normally, Tatsuta Naoki would provide the narration. I wonder if Ootsuka is going to come back as the voice of Abra in a flashback or something?

[mecha3000]

I really want to like Daima more and I wouldnt say its bad... but ....
yeah, you know, it looks fantastic, has some nice locations and some fresh ideas... BUT...
The writing... man... its just... all over the place... It's only 20 episodes and it feels like you could cut it down to 10! So much exposition, so much wandering around in the same looking areas, every now and then a nice looking fight for a few minutes and then the same again. But with these weird filler episodes, and I don't just mean episode 13, which could be cut completely without offering anything (yes, I know Ajay likes this episode, but for me even a side adventure filler should have some character development or something to continue the story and not just be a boring break), I also mean episodes 14 and 15, which have so much filler... not story filler, but just time filler. Goku falling for 10 minutes, nobody caring about him, people staring out of windows... or, well, 20 minutes of fighting an army that could be resolved in 10 seconds if the characters weren't so terribly written. This episode was so GT in its "let's nerf the characters and make them idiots so the plot can happen" - it was painful! The last few seconds with Goku going SSJ and bombing all the soldiers away... HE COULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT ALL THE TIME! And Vegeta too. Piccolo too. There was no effort. It was just painful to watch. I really hope Daima finds its way in the last few episodes, because right now I am pissed off that they are offering me a new series with no serious villain, no obstacle to overcome, no tension whatsoever. Just a run-through for overpowered characters who have been magically wished into children to make them less powerful without making them less powerful unless the story needs them to be.
Also, Goku and Vegeta defeated the Tamagamis easily, so they are much stronger than them. But Gomah's weapons can defeat Goku and Vegeta? With that knowledge, Gomah could have defeated the Tamagamis himself and won their Dragon Balls. Such a plot hole, because it is terribly written...
If the last episodes do not get better, this series will be seen as nothing more than a DLC to the Buu saga. Just an epilogue. Nothing really important, just a few more pages in a big book. But maybe that is what Toriyama wanted. I do not know.

P.S.: The interruption for the exposition about the third eye was terrible. So out of place. So poorly woven into the story. The author completely failed there.

I agree with EVERYTHING you're saying, honestly. And yeah, the "Let's give backstory to the Third Eye" moment was a bad writing moment. Even StruckbyBelz (a reaction channel on YouTube) kind of poked fun at that moment in their episode reaction. But yeah, all-in-all, it's looking like Daima will end up being a somewhat fun side quest, but nothing more than that. Too early to say and I'll give my final thoughts after the finale, but I really just want Super 2.0 or whatever to come at this point. The Demon Realm was fun to explore for a few episodes, but it's worn out of its welcome and I'm just ready for the series to end.

The best thing I can say about Daima is what I told my brother, it feels like Dragon Ball's answer to Scooby-Doo and the Ghoul School, if that makes sense. In that movie, Shaggy and Scooby go to a supernatural school as teachers or whatever, meet the students, the day is saved and they leave the school. That's how Daima feels to me. Goku and the gang will save the Demon Realm and leave and that place will never have relevance to the series again.

Also, was it ever confirmed if Arinsu and Degusu are Makaioshin?

[Thani]

Eh, I liked it. It sure frustrated me that Goku didn't go Super Saiyan from the get go to wipe the floor with the army. Or Vegeta. Or even Piccolo, for that matter.

But the moment I saw King Kadan arriving on the battle ship, it dawned on me: oh, it's a Dragon Quest story, just with some DB characters. So yeah, I'm okay with it.

[Cipher]

One of my least favorites in a while. The scene with Hybis getting the hat is incredibly funny, and the lore was an interesting interlude, but the rest of the episode felt dedicated to filling time around that--this close to the climax, a fight against mooks that could be solved in seconds (impossible to ignore, and at the end of the episode they do that anyway) really takes the wind out of the pacing's sails, and is the kind of thing the Dragon Ball manga would always avoid.

In fact we have something similar, at the end of the Red Ribbon Army arc when Goku storms the base. There is no pretending anything is a threat to him at that point, and instead the excitement comes from anticipating the final confrontation just around the corner and seeing the army panic in reaction to him. Even trying to spend 20 minutes here without progressing the episode too far (and that transparently felt like the goal), there were more fun and natural directions to take for the start of a raid on the castle.

Don't get me wrong--none of the above is from the perspective of "Oh, the characters should be such-and-such strong; this and that shouldn't affect them." But from the perspective of Daima's own pacing, and even its own established relationship between Goku and co. and Goma's army (non-threatening), this felt like a weak and transparent ploy for time.

Conversely, I really enjoyed the prior two episodes.

I've seen people (I think KaiserNeko unless I read wrong) say Daima is a good entry point for new and young fans. And I kind of get it with the whole "reintroducing classic Dragon Ball and kid Goku in the context of modern DB" and adding a fresh new twist on the "Hunt for Dragon Balls" arc. In that sense, I do feel that's where Daima shines the best.

Heavy, heavy, heavy disagree.
Daima is the First Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc, if you remove all the fun characters, all interpersonal conflict, the good pacing, the good comedy, the good soundtrack, the stakes, the tension, the diverse colorful locations, the organic and engaging world-building and replace them all with a generic brown wasteland, poop jokes and exposition dumps that just won't stop vomiting irrelevant trivia facts.

Trust me when I say this: Daima so far has been no better than a generic run-of-the-mill anime. It might entertain the kids for 2 seconds, but they'll all grow up and forget Dragon Ball exists.

Sadly, agreed. Daima is lacking both the snappy pacing and character-writing of the first two Dragon Ball hunts in the manga.

It has its moments for longtime fans, but "It's like the earlier arcs if you sucked out the fun" is...not an un-apt description of it, in execution. Maybe if it were all just condensed a bit more.

The Toriyama charm is there in the ideas and a lot of the jokes, but this is not a Toriyama-scripted projected and definitely not a Toriyama-paced one. I don't think I'd put it above...any...of his similar one-volume team-adventure manga. The pacing is the biggest issue, but a major secondary one is that the returning cast from Dragon Ball being both its biggest strength (fun existing characters and lore to build on) and weakness (we don't really get them being established or growing on their own journey as key members of a small team-adventure plot since it assumes you know them, which is is a problem).

Super (at least the manga) I feel could get by with Goku and Vegeta being relatively static characters (although it does find things to do with them, especially ToP through Granolah) because of the action-heavy format, tension built into scenearios, and key guest characters to focus on in that space instead. But it doesn't work well when they're back bones of an RPG-style adventure plot, and especially not one this long.

(Sorry for the somewhat negative post; just responding to the one above, and starting to think about the series holistically heading into the climax.)

[mecha3000]

Sadly, agreed. Daima is lacking both the snappy pacing and character-writing of the first two Dragon Ball hunts in the manga.

It has its moments for longtime fans, but "It's like the earlier arcs if you sucked out the fun" is...not an un-apt description of it, in execution. Maybe if it were all just condensed a bit more.

The Toriyama charm is there in the ideas and a lot of the jokes, but this is not a Toriyama-scripted projected and definitely not a Toriyama-paced one. I don't think I'd put it above...any...of his similar one-volume team-adventure manga. The pacing is the biggest issue, but a major secondary one is that the returning cast from Dragon Ball being both its biggest strength (fun existing characters and lore to build on) and weakness (we don't really get them being established or growing on their own journey as key members of a small team-adventure plot since it assumes you know them, which is is a problem).

Super (at least the manga) I feel could get by with Goku and Vegeta being relatively static characters (although it does find things to do with them, especially ToP through Granolah) because of the action-heavy format, tension built into scenearios, and key guest characters to focus on in that space instead. But it doesn't work well when they're back bones of an RPG-style adventure plot, and especially not one this long.

(Sorry for the somewhat negative post; just responding to the one above, and starting to think about the series holistically heading into the climax.)

I agree. I actually followed up with another post that stated I was mostly trying to find SOMETHING to like about Daima, but yeah, I was never trying to to say it's better than the Hunt for Dragon Balls Arc. I just feel that the addition of the Tamagami aspect of hunting the Dragon Balls and going to different demon worlds to do so IS a fresh idea for hunting the Dragon Balls.

And I've always been a GT fan and between criticism of Super and Daima, I'm loving to see people appreciate GT even more now. I saw you post about preferring GT's first arc to Daima and again, I agree. Even the music and score is better to me in GT.

[IntangibleFancy]

Do you guys think those fusion bugs are going to be used on Goku and Vegeta?

Glorio or Shin fusing with Goku was my first thought when those things debuted, but Glorio doesn’t seem to be that strong, and Shin cowering behind a rock this episode tells me he’s not going to get much cooler than he was in episode 7.

Besides that, the only other three uses I could think of is either the enemy (Kuu and Duu most likely) swiping them last second, it being used to fuse a powered up enemy with someone weak, or it just being used as a punchline for a gag - like Shin and Kibito accidentally eating it and becoming Kibito Kai again.

I know people are sick of Goku and Vegeta fusions but I wouldn’t mind a third one.

[JulieYBM]

I finally had the chance to sit down and re-watch the episode with subs and, like...yeah. I mean...come on. Just have Gokuu say, "Gettin' hit with these guns is makin' my ki all funky! I can't even transform!" It's the easiest piece of dialogue to slip into the script in the world.

[Cipher]

Do you guys think those fusion bugs are going to be used on Goku and Vegeta?

Glorio or Shin fusing with Goku was my first thought when those things debuted, but Glorio doesn’t seem to be that strong, and Shin cowering behind a rock this episode tells me he’s not going to get much cooler than he was in episode 7.

Besides that, the only other three uses I could think of is either the enemy (Kuu and Duu most likely) swiping them last second, it being used to fuse a powered up enemy with someone weak, or it just being used as a punchline for a gag - like Shin and Kibito accidentally eating it and becoming Kibito Kai again.

I know people are sick of Goku and Vegeta fusions but I wouldn’t mind a third one.

My current prediction is that, given this episode had Vegeta requesting another bug to restore his energy, he'll mistakenly go for a third and eat the fusion bug, merging with some unintended character (maybe even Hybis) as a joke.

Kuu and Duu feels like the next most likely thing.

[IntangibleFancy]

Do you guys think those fusion bugs are going to be used on Goku and Vegeta?

Glorio or Shin fusing with Goku was my first thought when those things debuted, but Glorio doesn’t seem to be that strong, and Shin cowering behind a rock this episode tells me he’s not going to get much cooler than he was in episode 7.

Besides that, the only other three uses I could think of is either the enemy (Kuu and Duu most likely) swiping them last second, it being used to fuse a powered up enemy with someone weak, or it just being used as a punchline for a gag - like Shin and Kibito accidentally eating it and becoming Kibito Kai again.

I know people are sick of Goku and Vegeta fusions but I wouldn’t mind a third one.

My current prediction is that, given this episode had Vegeta requesting another bug to restore his energy, he'll mistakenly go for a third and eat the fusion bug, merging with some unintended character (maybe even Hybis) as a joke.

Kuu and Duu feels like the next most likely thing.

I'm really glad Goku put two in his pocket. They (hopefully) won’t use both of them on a gag.

As for the Kuu and Duu thing, I’m expecting that too, and I actually want it but I also don’t want a bug to be used on that. I’d rather see one of them absorb the other, or them merge assuming they’ve both got Buu’s properties.