Dragon Ball Daima will be 20 episodes long

[AliTheZombie13]

The writer hardly matters when they're just doing what they're told to by everyone above them. Different projects have different restraints that keep their staff forced to write in certain ways to match the whims of people other than them. It's not like a writer is being hired to do whatever they want by a producer and a director, especially at a big company like Toei Animation that is handling a project like Dragon Ball where there are multiple invested partners.

True enough, but the point remains.
Dragon Ball needs to take risks, but I reckon that's probably not going to happen because of some higher-up's decision.
So, it's gonna remain this boring, generic drivel for the foreseeable future.

[JulieYBM]

The writer hardly matters when they're just doing what they're told to by everyone above them. Different projects have different restraints that keep their staff forced to write in certain ways to match the whims of people other than them. It's not like a writer is being hired to do whatever they want by a producer and a director, especially at a big company like Toei Animation that is handling a project like Dragon Ball where there are multiple invested partners.

True enough, but the point remains.
Dragon Ball needs to take risks, but I reckon that's probably not going to happen because of some higher-up's decision.
So, it's gonna remain this boring, generic drivel for the foreseeable future.

You're preaching to the choir, dear. I've worn through a dozen soapboxes on this very forum about how they should just let their creative people be creative and not rely so much on sticking close to what Toriyama might have done, while pointing out how all the most fun elements of modern Dragon Ball have all been from people other than him.

[Jord]

With how big DB now is, there is little chance that the status quo will be altered by new shows. GT had the "fortune" that DB was winding down, allowing them to take risks with characters, even killing some off permanently.

Super introduced new characters didn't do anything interesting with the existing characters. Instead they filled up the space with meaningless recolors and nostalgia.
Daima is stuck in the same "Z"-void, where the most exciting thing is a temporary change into child forms, which GT handled a lot better. If everyone is changed back to children, it is a lot less interesting, character wise.

In a way, DB Heroes was the most exciting of the new shows, since it was of the wall crazy and unpredictable and gave us new forms that were more than just recolors. They had a lot of freedom on that show. It may have been too crazy for it's own good but at least it did something new.

[YamiGoku]

At this point i wish it was already over..

I dont want to start a fight with the Fans of Daima, but I dont know how anyone can defend this series, Naruto filler was more entertaining than this, and the filler is why I stopped watching Naruto.

[Chuquita]

I kind of knew it already, but Daima supports, at least for me, that if I have to choose between having stronger story or stronger animation, that I definitely pick the former. Daima is beautiful, visually, but I feel like that's wasted with how bland the story is. Super was a roller coaster of highs and lows--but I at least had a lot more fun with Super than Daima. Daima's more like a merry-go-round and I feel like I'm only watching because it's the final Toriyama-involved DB thing.

I wish I had more info on why Daima turned out, plot-wise, the way it is. I get it's a Pilaf and RR mash-up, but if they were gonna go for nostalgia, and had the animation talent, and time, then why not do a send-up of the Tenkaichi Budoukai instead? Those arcs were way more popular than Pilaf and RR, right?

[SupremeKai25]

I kind of knew it already, but Daima supports, at least for me, that if I have to choose between having stronger story or stronger animation, that I definitely pick the former. Daima is beautiful, visually, but I feel like that's wasted with how bland the story is. Super was a roller coaster of highs and lows--but I at least had a lot more fun with Super than Daima. Daima's more like a merry-go-round and I feel like I'm only watching because it's the final Toriyama-involved DB thing.

I wish I had more info on why Daima turned out, plot-wise, the way it is. I get it's a Pilaf and RR mash-up, but if they were gonna go for nostalgia, and had the animation talent, and time, then why not do a send-up of the Tenkaichi Budoukai instead? Those arcs were way more popular than Pilaf and RR, right?

And you don't always have to sacrifice one or the other. You can have both a good story and good animation and art.

Super is proof of this. Good story, good animation, and nice art.

[Jord]

I wonder if this project was pitched as an actual 20 episode series or perhaps as a movie or shorter series that got stretched out for commercial purposes.

[TechExpert2021]

I wonder if this project was pitched as an actual 20 episode series or perhaps as a movie or shorter series that got stretched out for commercial purposes.

Months before Daima premiered, I believed that Daima was rumored to be a web series like SDBH.

[Zephyr]

I wish I had more info on why Daima turned out, plot-wise, the way it is. I get it's a Pilaf and RR mash-up, but if they were gonna go for nostalgia, and had the animation talent, and time, then why not do a send-up of the Tenkaichi Budoukai instead? Those arcs were way more popular than Pilaf and RR, right?

While it's not exactly the same, Super already did a couple of tournaments, so I assume they wanted to try pulling from different wells this time around.

[shadd21]

Odd that there's supposedly only 4 episodes left yet there hasn't been any official that the series is ending. Are we sure Daima is only 20 episodes?

How close to Super's final episode did they first announced that it was ending?

[kemuri07]

I kind of knew it already, but Daima supports, at least for me, that if I have to choose between having stronger story or stronger animation, that I definitely pick the former. Daima is beautiful, visually, but I feel like that's wasted with how bland the story is. Super was a roller coaster of highs and lows--but I at least had a lot more fun with Super than Daima. Daima's more like a merry-go-round and I feel like I'm only watching because it's the final Toriyama-involved DB thing.

I wish I had more info on why Daima turned out, plot-wise, the way it is. I get it's a Pilaf and RR mash-up, but if they were gonna go for nostalgia, and had the animation talent, and time, then why not do a send-up of the Tenkaichi Budoukai instead? Those arcs were way more popular than Pilaf and RR, right?

And you don't always have to sacrifice one or the other. You can have both a good story and good animation and art.

Super is proof of this. Good story, good animation, and nice art.

*snicker*

With how big DB now is, there is little chance that the status quo will be altered by new shows. GT had the "fortune" that DB was winding down, allowing them to take risks with characters, even killing some off permanently.

I really do think time has been very, very kind to GT as people sorta forget GT's reputation, an anime that had to do a 180 from its initial premise because the response to its first arc was so vitriolic that it had to peddle back and try to be more like DBZ. And I'd argue that Daima is a direct reaction to that and an attempt to avoid that same fate.

But yes, DBGT began and ended shortly before Dragon Ball as a franchise became a global phenomenon, and so it was likely able to pivot to being the "Final arc of DBZ." I don't think they'll ever do that again because of merchandising, but also is likely the reason why they'll never cross EoZ.

[VegettoEX]

an anime that had to do a 180 from its initial premise because the response to its first arc was so vitriolic that it had to peddle back and try to be more like DBZ. And I'd argue that Daima is a direct reaction to that and an attempt to avoid that same fate.

A little off-track here, but:

This isn't exactly true. The feedback timing and structure wouldn't have been in place for them to so drastically and wildly change course based on fan feedback.

Instead, it was an internal decision... and early enough (around the script for episode 3), that stuff would have still been in pre-airing production before any of it was seen by fans:

Initially we made about 26 episodes worth of rough plot outlines. But around when the final script for episode 3 was finished, we thought “these travel episodes aren’t going to be interesting no matter how long we keep doing them, are they?” and so we stopped (laughs).

OK, and then separately and back on track:

Odd that there's supposedly only 4 episodes left yet there hasn't been any official that the series is ending. Are we sure Daima is only 20 episodes?

How close to Super's final episode did they first announced that it was ending?

In January that year, listings for the new GeGeGe no Kitaro series showed up with its taking Super's timeslot. Around this time, packaging details for the 11th DVD/Blu-ray set and its episode count started showing up. Those were our initial hints. Official comments started then coming out around that time.

It's worth noting there was a whole kerfuffle in November 2017 with rumors of it ending, but that ended up being coincidental: answers were incorrectly translated and extrapolated, but that ended up being the case.

[AliTheZombie13]

I still want to see a series that respects GT's initial premise while giving it good execution.
Daima is, unfortunately, not that. Actually, I don't think we'll ever have that, at least not from Dragon Ball.

At least, I still have Digimon Adventure 98, which shows how you can have an adventure story for kids with overpowered destructive monsters and universal-ending stakes and not be boring as hell.

[Jord]

But yes, DBGT began and ended shortly before Dragon Ball as a franchise became a global phenomenon, and so it was likely able to pivot to being the "Final arc of DBZ." I don't think they'll ever do that again because of merchandising, but also is likely the reason why they'll never cross EoZ.

Even if they would go past EoZ...what would be the point? In it's current state they won't take risks and retire characters or let them die. They would just look older/less marketable, get new forms and meet new characters. Which is exactly what Super did. EoZ isn't a cure for the stagnation of the franchise. The character arcs were done a long time ago. I would say that GT reflected the characters arc without forcing new arcs in. We see Vegeta as someone mostly adjusted to human life, Goku act like the experienced veteran. Perhaps you could argue that Goten got a bit of development with his dating life and Pan grew a bit as well.

Super regressed characters so they could grow again, which is pretty backwards from a story telling perspective. I can see why. These characters are "done" and the hoops the Super writers had to go to in order to try and fake stakes were ridiculous.

-We got a magic remote that kills one of the main bad guys, basically a summon. Said bad guy was a mix of previous villains.
-Freeza training for a few months to go from SSJ level to SSG level.
-A tournament which lasted a year from which we already knew how it would end, taking away all the tension from the premise.
-Weird nostalgia grabs like villains coming back, even recreating the Gohan SSJ scene as the climax to a new movie.

It was terrible writing and it's honestly no wonder the anime got cancelled so quickly. For all the crap GT gets for only having 64 episodes, coming right after DB and DBZ, Super barely got more than double the amount, and that's after a 20 year drought of Dragon Ball anime. That is pretty bad.

I think the premise of Daima, depowering the heroes, would be the way to go. GT used it pretty effectively with basically a weaker Goku and average fighters in Trunks and Pan. Daima however doesn't seem to have a grasp on how strong it's cast is. Not to mention, there is way too much exposition for a 20 hour series. There have been a ton of suggestions on this forum, from having it star Goten and Trunks to making it as a movie, that would do it so much more good. In its current state though...it's divisive to say the least. A waste of gorgeous animation.

[AliTheZombie13]

For all the crap GT gets for only having 64 episodes, coming right after DB and DBZ, Super barely got more than double the amount, and that's after a 20 year drought of Dragon Ball anime. That is pretty bad.

GT getting crap for being "only" 64 episodes never made any real sense to me.
Daima is "only" 20 episodes, and I still feel like that's too much for what it promises.

I'm pretty sure if Dragon Ball Z was remade and properly paced (Kai doesn't count), the entire show from Saiyan to Boo would fit nicely into 64 episodes without losing anything of importance. I was pretty shocked rereading the manga and seeing how fast the story was going. Many people forget the reason why Z was so long was not because of any artistic choice, but to not outpace the manga. Though I'm sure Toei was hardly complaining about it given how much money it made them in the long run.

Once again, Chekhov's Gun. If it's not important for the story, remove it.
Short and sweet is better than long and dragged-out.

[SupremeKai25]

It was terrible writing and it's honestly no wonder the anime got cancelled so quickly. For all the crap GT gets for only having 64 episodes, coming right after DB and DBZ, Super barely got more than double the amount, and that's after a 20 year drought of Dragon Ball anime. That is pretty bad.

No it's not. That's literally only your opinion. For many others, Super had way too many episodes and could do with significant trimming in certain areas.

[Jord]

For all the crap GT gets for only having 64 episodes, coming right after DB and DBZ, Super barely got more than double the amount, and that's after a 20 year drought of Dragon Ball anime. That is pretty bad.

GT getting crap for being "only" 64 episodes never made any real sense to me.
Daima is "only" 20 episodes, and I still feel like that's too much for what it promises.

I'm pretty sure if Dragon Ball Z was remade and properly paced (Kai doesn't count), the entire show from Saiyan to Boo would fit nicely into 64 episodes without losing anything of importance. I was pretty shocked rereading the manga and seeing how fast the story was going. Many people forget the reason why Z was so long was not because of any artistic choice, but to not outpace the manga. Though I'm sure Toei was hardly complaining about it given how much money it made them in the long run.

Once again, Chekhov's Gun. If it's not important for the story, remove it.
Short and sweet is better than long and dragged-out.

I agree. I like the DBZ story but 291 episodes is not something you easily rewatch. I am currently watching Kai for the first time and it's pace is refreshing. There are some parts of the original that just drag, like the Frieza fight. I don't know if I agree that DBZ could be cut down to 64 episodes but I do like the faster pacing and feel that there is more that could be cut.

Your example of Daima is striking. When you look at Daima's episodes and see what has happened thus far it's frankly baffling. To compare other 20 episodes from the other shows.:

In DB, after 20 episodes, we've already been through the entire Pilaf saga and start the preliminaries of the tournament
In DBZ, after 20 episodes, we're in the middle of training for the Saiyans
In DBZK after 20 episodes, we're already on Namek with Vegeta killing Kui
In GT, after 20 episodes we're already in the Baby saga, with the fight against Rildo
In Super, after 20 episodes, we already passed the Beerus saga and started the Golden Freeza saga

Pacing varies between above shows but even in the worst paced shows a lot at least happened.

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't know if I agree that DBZ could be cut down to 64 episodes but I do like the faster pacing and feel that there is more that could be cut.

The early parts of the original DB anime used to adapt 2-3 chapters into one 22min episode without compromising the storytelling.
The DBZ portion, specifically, has 324 chapters. Apply the same pacing from the original DB anime and it would turn out around 100-150 episodes. And that's not even counting parts of the manga itself that could be cut, like Freeza's "5 minutes" or the numerous cutaways to other characters discussing the fight and adding "obvious" commentary that really doesn't add anything (which to my shock and horror, were actually present in the manga and weren't an invention of the anime to pad out the runtime).

I really don't think DBZ's story, with everything considered, is worth more than 100 episodes.

[JulieYBM]

324/64 = 5.0625 chapters an episode.

Obviously, I wouldn't suggest doing something cleanly like, that, but I also definitely think that with some story tweaks you can easily adapt Dragon Ball (1984) and its 519 chapters into a solid, tight number of episodes. It really just depends on what one wants to do. I'm not obssessed with showing every single panel and I'm not above just straight up removing stuff to make the plot either more brisk or more creatively fulfilling.

Hell, I often suggest that the Hunt for the Dragon Balls and the Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai arc would make a very clean 13 episode cour. The Red Ribbon Army arc and the Fortuneteller arc also fit comfortably into a 13 episode cour. The Twenty-Second Tenka'ichi Budoukai and the Piccolo Daimaou arc would also fit into only 10 episodes, unless you wanted to maybe alter the plot to make it more brisk or flesh it out. Personally, I'd want to redo the Chi-Chi stuff in the Twenty-Third Tenka'ichi Budoukai so that she's cooler and not such a stereotype. The Twenty-Third Tenka'ichi Budoukai is 32 chapters long, but that's way too few chapters for a single cour. I'd suggest looking at the plot in broad strokes and then deciding how to have it unfold from them, rather than trying to cram every scene in.

Honestly, adapting the Twenty-Third Tenka'ichi Budoukai as six episodes and the Saiyan arc as seven episodes would probably make the most sense.

This could really go on forever, so I'll cut it off here, because I have other stuff to do, but at the end of the day, proper writing and directing can do anything when it comes to adapting a work.

[Zinnia]

Is there even any chance Daima can regain it's crowd back? I think all the flashy stuff will be kept for the last 4 episodes, but the series will be basically over by then. And even if these 4 episodes are miraculously super awesome, it'll just be a talk how people wish the rest of the series was as good as these, with the occasional mention of SSJ3 Vegeta.

I really don't think DBZ's story, with everything considered, is worth more than 100 episodes.

I am happy that DBZ is as long as it is, because traditional 90s animation is the best and the fact we have so much of it is net positive for the world. Wouldn't cut a single episode, as I'm already annoyed enough by the bad Kai cuts and redraws.