Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

As long as Gohan is weaker than his child SS2 self, it doesn't matter if he has sparks or not.

Cell =< Dabra =< SS Gohan(Dabra fight) < SS2 Gohan(Cell Games) >=< Full Power hypothetical SS2 Gohan.

Everything checks out. No need to complicate it with introducing ridiculous notions of "Goku only meant a specific form of Cell that fall in line with my headcanon!!!"

I think you’re simplifying things a bit. SS2 Kid Gohan was clearly stronger than SS2 Teen Gohan, and SS Kid Gohan was weaker than Perfect Cell at his full power. Perfect Cell was then surpassed by Super Perfect Cell, who pushed SS2 Kid Gohan to his limits. If Dabra struggled against SS Teen Gohan, that suggests Dabra wasn’t way stronger than him. SS Teen Gohan’s performance wouldn’t make sense if Dabra and Super Perfect Cell were close in strength.

If Teen Gohan were a SS2 against Dabra, Gohan’s performance would better justify Dabra being close in strength to Super Perfect Cell, as the gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and SS2 Teen Gohan would still leave room for Dabra or Cell to appear stronger. However, it would still seem inconsistent for Dabra to struggle so significantly against SS2 Teen Gohan, or even SS2 Kid Gohan, if Dabra were told to be way stronger than Super Perfect Cell, especially given Goku’s encouragement to draw out Gohan’s full power.

[dbgtFO]

I think you’re simplifying things a bit. SS2 Kid Gohan was clearly stronger than SS2 Teen Gohan, and SS Kid Gohan was weaker than Perfect Cell at his full power. Perfect Cell was then surpassed by Super Perfect Cell, who pushed SS2 Kid Gohan to his limits. If Dabra struggled against SS Teen Gohan, that suggests Dabra wasn’t way stronger than him. SS Teen Gohan’s performance wouldn’t make sense if Dabra and Super Perfect Cell were close in strength.

If Teen Gohan were a SS2 against Dabra, Gohan’s performance would better justify Dabra being close in strength to Super Perfect Cell, as the gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and SS2 Teen Gohan would still leave room for Dabra or Cell to appear stronger. However, it would still seem inconsistent for Dabra to struggle so significantly against SS2 Teen Gohan, or even SS2 Kid Gohan, if Dabra were told to be way stronger than Super Perfect Cell, especially given Goku’s encouragement to draw out Gohan’s full power.

Yes, I don't see the need to complicate it and add stuff that isn't there.
If inconsistencies abound then so be it. Toriyama is not some perfect god of consistency and I have no problems with that.

I just follow the narrative as it's given and at this point consider the debate of SS2 or not an interesting peculiarity of his whims as a creator, not something that fundamentally reshapes the narrative he gave us.
What I can see is Cell's strength mentioned once and then never brought up again later as any point of contention.
I conclude thusly that it wasn't relevant anymore to him and his story and that falls in line with Goku saying Dabra's way stronger than he thought.
Same with Gohan's SS2 at the tournament. Not any of the Saiyans bring it up again and when Kaioshin speaks to Kibito in private, he hypes up Gohan even more.
If that strength had any relevance, it would have been prudent to bring it up, but it wasn't.
Super Saiyan 2 or not has no bearing on that. If anything that just means SS Gohan is somehow just written as that strong for whatever reason.

Not that "in this Super Saiyan form, he was this strong and that MUST mean for this Super Saiyan form, he MUST be this strong!!"
Frankly Toriyama doesn't show in the narrative that's given that he cared about all those little details. It has always been headcanon logic in overdrive.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s far more reasonable to assume Toriyama forgot how strong Cell was than to dismiss all the other implications suggesting Gohan and Dabra were fighting at a level below SS2. Gohan was only hyped by Shin because he overheard Goku and Vegeta discussing his potential if he got angry, not his current level. The narrative doesn’t support Dabra or Gohan being anywhere near Super Perfect Cell if Gohan was still holding back so much untapped potential.

[The Monkey King]

If we want to stir things up even more, there's also the plot point that SPC was killed by a Gohan who wasn't even at half strength

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

[ZombieVito]

Gohan is without a doubt SSJ1 against Dabra and Majin Boo.
It's drawn right in the paper. You need to prove that what everyone else sees with their eyes is wrong.

Honestly everyone is going beyond to try to explain something that's quite literally in front of everyone faces.

We literally have the manga and official guidebooks saying Dabura is equal to Cell and Gohan wasn't one shotted by him so he is SS2.

SP Cell did one shot Gohan (sort of), so via feats we can conclude SPC > Dabra.

Because he was off guard trying to save Vegeta.

At the end of the day Goku says Dabura >= Cell, so he is SS2 tier.

[Hugo Boss]

At the end of the day Goku says Dabura >= Cell, so he is SS2 tier.

It’s clear from multiple contexts that Gohan and Dabra’s fight wasn’t on SS2 level.

The DBZ Dragon Books specifically state Dabra was weaker than Gohan but kept up due to his superior skill and Gohan’s lack of training. Gohan likely believed SS1 was sufficient to win, only to struggle because of his own rustiness. Even if SS2 could’ve guaranteed victory, he couldn’t easily access it without external aid (as seen with Kibito).

Goku’s comparison of Dabra to Cell is vague and doesn’t necessarily place him on Super Perfect Cell’s level. If anything, Dabra aligns more with mid-tier Perfect Cell. This is supported by how dismissive Goku and Vegeta were about Dabra, who they never treated as a real threat. Additionally, Buu’s meter barely rose during their fight, unlike the quick charge from Goku and Vegeta’s SS2 battle, further proving they weren’t fighting on a level above SS1.

Lastly, Dabra doesn’t show signs of being powered up by Babidi, unlike Spopovich or Majin Vegeta. His base power seems natural, and Dragon Ball Daima even places him below fighters who can rival SS1 Goku. Overall, the evidence consistently undermines the claim that Dabra is SS2 tier, making it far more reasonable to attribute Goku’s statement to a generalization rather than a literal power scaling.

[Yuji]

Regarding the Dabra debate, it's worth pointing out in the anime he's stated to be over 4.000 Kili. SS Goku is at 3k, so naturally SS Gohan would be lower, perhaps 2.5 -2.8k. The SS2s would be that 5-6k mark. It's clearer that if Gohan was in SS1, that Dabra was toying with him, since Dabra would be almost twice as strong.

[Thani]

Regarding the Dabra debate, it's worth pointing out in the anime he's stated to be over 4.000 Kili. SS Goku is at 3k, so naturally SS Gohan would be lower, perhaps 2.5 -2.8k. The SS2s would be that 5-6k mark. It's clearer that if Gohan was in SS1, that Dabra was toying with him, since Dabra would be almost twice as strong.

Adding to this, I've reread the fight in the manga. While extremely short, Dabra held the upper hand throughout. Gohan was the only one panting by the end and the only time Dabra exerted any effort was when Gohan blocked his sword - and even then, afterwards Dabra was standing with a smile while Gohan was panting furiously.

I get that Dabra wasn't hurting Gohan enough, but that fight does justify his belief that Gohan was "trash" to him. He was also just as confident about fighting a fighter with 3000 kili, urging them to gang up on him.

Ngl, the way it went, it made sense that Gohan was using just SS and that Dabra was more or less toying with him.

[ZombieVito]

I guess I can accept Gohan being SS (In the manga, he was definitely a SS2 in the anime) and Dabura was just toying with him.

There's just no scenario where Dabura is not SS2 tier for me. Both Goku and official guidebooks puts him on Cell's level. There's no discussion to be had on that matter.

[shadd21]

I light of today's episode, i'm going to echo this leak from one of Geekdom's streams..

Spoiler:

Third-Eye Gomah > SSJ3 Goku/Vegeta

[Hugo Boss]

Regarding the Dabra debate, it's worth pointing out in the anime he's stated to be over 4.000 Kili. SS Goku is at 3k, so naturally SS Gohan would be lower, perhaps 2.5 -2.8k. The SS2s would be that 5-6k mark. It's clearer that if Gohan was in SS1, that Dabra was toying with him, since Dabra would be almost twice as strong.

Adding to this, I've reread the fight in the manga. While extremely short, Dabra held the upper hand throughout. Gohan was the only one panting by the end and the only time Dabra exerted any effort was when Gohan blocked his sword - and even then, afterwards Dabra was standing with a smile while Gohan was panting furiously.

I get that Dabra wasn't hurting Gohan enough, but that fight does justify his belief that Gohan was "trash" to him. He was also just as confident about fighting a fighter with 3000 kili, urging them to gang up on him.

Ngl, the way it went, it made sense that Gohan was using just SS and that Dabra was more or less toying with him.

The 4,000 Kili statement from the anime isn’t necessarily reliable since there’s no direct 4,000 statement in the manga, but Dabra dismissed Goku’s power likely because of his own reputation as the Supreme King of the Demon Realm rather than an actual non-subjective assertion.

Plus, if Dabra were nearly twice as strong as SS Gohan, the fight should have been much more one-sided. Instead, despite Gohan being rusty, Dabra never decisively dominated, and his strongest attack barely harmed Gohan.

Besides, in Dragon Ball Super, we see that while Dabra gave SS Trunks trouble, he couldn’t track SS2 Trunks’ movements, implying he wasn’t SS2-tier. Despite that, Dabra was still in denial about how outmatched he was.

Additionally, Goku easily dominates his mental image of Cell in SS1, reinforcing that he wasn’t picturing a SS2-tier Cell when making his comparison. Given the context, Dabra seems closer to a strong SS1 than a true SS2-tier fighter.

[Hellspawn28]

Third-Eye Gomah is probably stronger than Buu, but still lose to Freeza in ROF.

[ZombieVito]

Third-Eye Gomah is probably stronger than Buu, but still lose to Freeza in ROF.

1st form Freeza was stronger than SS Gohan so yeah. Final Form Freeza is beyond anything Daima has shown so far.

[Hugo Boss]

Seal Wafers “Super Obsession with Victory” brand-new stickers sneak peek.

I’m curious for their reasoning behind Android edition numbers. It does seem they only slammed old collections into this one without adapting all but one obvious discrepancy (Cell Jr., I’m looking at you).

[Yuji]

A powered-up Tamagami 1 and Majin Doo aren't able to hold a blast from Gomah that SS3 Goku can easily deflect with his aura alone.

It seems Doo is probably Mr. Boo level at best.

[DBZ Macky]

It's amazing how Goku got hundreds of times stronger in just around 5 episodes since he needed Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Tamagami 3 but can hold his own against Duu in his base form now. That's totally how it works, right?

[Saiyan007]

Goku being able to contend for some time with majin duu in his base and could hold him off as a SSJ before being interrupted is interesting

[ankokudaishogun]

Seal Wafers “Super Obsession with Victory” brand-new stickers sneak peek.

The DAIMA characters more or less fit my opinion:

• Super Saiyan V&G(whose MINI version is about 10% weaker than their adult version, which again fits though I place them at 20% weaker)
• the Tamagami in base, just enough stronger than Super Saiyan to require SS2.
• Their powered up forms most likely do in fact match about SS2(note: not in the wafer cards)
• The Majin Bros
• SS2 V&G: how they rank compared to the Majin Bros is unclear(note: not in the cards)
• SS3 V&G(only V in the cards)

[Koitsukai]

We don't know how much weaker the gang has become nor how close to their real power they are getting since they might be gradually getting back to their full power, but how do you think their Z versions would fare against the Tamagamis, Kuu and Duu?

[DBZ Macky]

We don't know how much weaker the gang has become nor how close to their real power they are getting since they might be gradually getting back to their full power, but how do you think their Z versions would fare against the Tamagamis, Kuu and Duu?

There isn't a single thing that the adult Z versions of the characters can do that the kid Daima versions can't. I think they're at the same level of strength for all intents and purposes. Maybe they are like 10% weaker or something at best.
They didn't even do anything interesting with the concept power scaling wise. I thought it'd be cool if Vegeta would be stronger than Goku now since he's a slightly older and taller kid now and has always been strong as a kid to the point where he surpassed his dad but nada.