Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

I was thinking about the BoG 6-10-15 scale and while of course it is incredibly outdated now, I think in Toriyama's original vision, it probably still works.

Here's what we know from Toriyama's words:

• Goku and Vegeta working together in SSB can give Beerus a good fight;
• Merged Zamasu was originally supposed to be defeated by the two working together;
• Jiren is only a bit stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta;
• Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction;
• Broly may be stronger than Beerus

I think if we follow the movies alone and the tidbits from interviews, we get something like:

SSB: 7
Merged Zamasu: 8

Broly: around 10
Jiren: around 10
Cell Max: 9
UI Goku/Beast Gohan: around 10

Manga and anime obviously threw all this out of the window but I wouldn't doubt it if Toriyama wrote all the following scripts with this scale still in mind.

[Koitsukai]

I agree that the most logical in-universe interpretation would be to assume Shin was unaware of Freeza's transformation abilities, he had no crystal ball to keep up with the news nor can he properly read ki, otherwise he would not have been panicking just at the sight of fucking Pui Pui.

But, I doubt the authorial intent was to say Kaioshin can oneshot a 500k level person, Vegeta's reaction imply it's a big deal what he's saying, the context of the scene is to hype him up. Also, he did survive an encounter with Buu, which he shouldn't have if he was just as strong as Namek Goku. To be fair, some SS2 tier fighters failed to survive Majin Buu, so Shin might have higher endurance than others.
In any case, I don't think it's such a big deal, he could oneshot Freeza with magic while not being physically stronger. And even if he were, then being as strong as Android 16 could still get the job done.

--

About the BoG scale, obviously, it's not linear, maybe it was when it was said, but by now we can work around it.
6: SSG level.
7: SSB level.
8: Above SSB (Zamasu, CSSB, KKSSB, SSBE)
9: Jiren, Moro, Granola, Gas.
9,5: UI, UE, Broly, Beast.
9,8: Black Freeza
10: Beerus.

Below 6, I'd say:
5: Z SS fusion.
4: Buuhan, Buutenks, Buff Buu.
3: Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, SS3, Majin Buu.
2: Freeza, Super Saiyans, Cell, Dabura.
1: Ginyu Force, saiyans, namekians, cerelians, Heatas, Galactic Patrol, etc.

[Yuji]

Option #1:

Base Saiyans > Shin > Piccolo > Freeza

Takes statements at face value and stays true to bloated power scaling, has to ignore Beerus' statement.

Option #2:

Shin > Piccolo > Base Saiyans >/< Freeza

What most people thought prior to Daima. For whatever reason, Shin became weaker than everyone else, or is just reluctant to fight.

Option #3:

Shin (w/magic) > Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans > Shin

Adds more nuance with the magic variable to explain away Shin's seemingly conflicting portrayals.

Option #4:

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans > Shin > 1st form Freeza

Based on what would logically make sense in-universe for the knowledge the characters had at each time.


Which one are we going with?

[Hugo Boss]

Options #3 and #4 are not conflicting though. Shin and Babidi’s magic are powerful enough to keep them somewhat relevant that they can respectively contain a SS2-tier fighter and control a SS1.5-tier fighter, although they aren’t powerful enough to fight them head on. Super and Daima reinforced this by portraying Shin as weaker than Base Goku in pure combat ability. Interestingly enough, Zamasu is the only Glind that can compete with Super Saiyans in raw power.

[Yuji]

Options #3 and #4 are not conflicting though. Shin and Babidi’s magic are powerful enough to keep them somewhat relevant that they can respectively contain a SS2-tier fighter and control a SS1.5-tier fighter, although they aren’t powerful enough to fight them head on. Super and Daima reinforced this by portraying Shin as weaker than Base Goku in pure combat ability. Interestingly enough, Zamasu is the only Glind that can compete with Super Saiyans in raw power.

The South and Grand Kaioshin of U7 should be physically strong themselves.

[Koitsukai]

I'm between O2 and O3.

O4 would mean Shin and Toriyama are boasting about defeating easily somebody that by now can be defeated by Tenshinhan(that Shin Kiko ho should destroy Freeza), Krilin (said to be the strongest human), and I want to say Yamcha but probably shouldn't. And on top of that, Vegeta is surprised of this as well, when his own son should oneshot 1st form Freeza.
O1 doesn't work, Vegeta wouldn't be surprised with such a silly feat. Freeza needs still be above him in someway (base).

I just can't get myself to not interpret Shin' introduction as the presentation of a big deal of a character instead of a new power level in town that is here to re-write the whole scaling. Because he was not, after all he was just I'm god, listen to me, I'm god, I need your help. It was never about how strong I am.
This doesn't mean Shin cannot be stronger than Piccolo, only that said scene was not created with that in mind nor the reason for the abandonment was due to power.

Also, yes, Glinds apparently vary in power. You have DKS being as strong as Moro, the South one as strong as Kid Buu, Zamasu strong as SS2, Shin clearly weaker than them, and Degesu weaker than Chibi Piccolo. And it's not even a matter of age, Zamasu is the youngest of them all.

[Thani]

I don't think you're gonna find too much internal consistency here.

Also, for what it's worth, Shin does call Gohan's SS2 in the Tournament just "Super Saiyan" and wonders if he was even at full strength at the time, then goes on to tell Kibito that Gohan was even stronger than they thought (since he fought Buu).

If you compare that with Toriyama's statement that he forgot SS2 was a thing and thought that SS3 was what he would call SS2... it seems that, when inside Babidi's ship, there were only "Super Saiyan" and the "broke the super saiyan wall" level that Toriyama was still calling just Super Saiyan.

Does that make sense? Because "power levels" were all over the place at that point in time.

ALSO also, at least in the manga, Shin had no idea who Pui Pui (or Pocus) was, he was just urging caution and to not underestimate their enemies... which does appear to show that he had no fine ability to measure ki. Which is really weird.

[QuakingStar]

Shins comments on Gohans strength and on PuiPui came before he knew how strong Goku and Vegeta were. I think Shin only ever knew about 1st Form Freeza's power, while Beerus knew about his FP since Beerus likely MADE Frieza show it to him. You also gotta remember that in U7 Frieza was considered the strongest after Beerus and Buu as far as Shin and everyone else knew. So this means 530,000 was a big deal for mortals in U7 for a long long time. Shin being a God would hold pride in being above that, and of course he would assume the Saiyans on Earth had to be above that to beat Frieza. Also Toriyama didn't name it Super Saiyan 2 until Goku showed it to Buu, which came after the Majin Vegeta fight.

[picc]

We can come up with all kinds of explanations for things in universe, but none of them pass the smell test for a writer who is just writing things.

And there's little rationale to Akira Toriyama presenting Shin in the Buu saga with the intention of him only being aware of Freeza's first form and basing surrounding statements on that.

If that was his intention, he would have had one of the senshi mention something about Freeza transforming and Shin being confused or surprised. It would have been easy to do. But wasn't because he didn't think that kind of analysis would be done on the statement.

[picc]

Speaking to narrative again. The narrative thread was Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers all together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first.

1) His shock at base vegeta's power, 2) the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the saiyans' reactions to them, 3) Vegeta mocking his strength, etc.

AT did a great job of selling us a magic bean at the tournament, and then using that magic bean to illustrate how far everyone else has come.

His reaction to the base saiyans power doesn't mean he's weaker than them. But it is indicative that his power level is not a big deal in the buu saga meta, in general. And that he's weaker than the readers (and Shin himself) believed him to be, relative to how he was introduced at the Budokai. Which IMO was an intentional misdirect from AT to first build suspense, and then later illustrate how insanely powerful the z-senshi have become.

No part of his involvement in the Buu saga requires him to be stronger than Trunks when we first saw him. That doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Piccolo. But we're told repeatedly that he's weaker than we think rather than stronger than we think. And shown. That makes me lean toward the floor side of his power range. And him fainting from Rumshhi's roar while TOP base Goku stays upright doesn't make me less confident in that assessment.

[Hugo Boss]

Options #3 and #4 are not conflicting though. Shin and Babidi’s magic are powerful enough to keep them somewhat relevant that they can respectively contain a SS2-tier fighter and control a SS1.5-tier fighter, although they aren’t powerful enough to fight them head on. Super and Daima reinforced this by portraying Shin as weaker than Base Goku in pure combat ability. Interestingly enough, Zamasu is the only Glind that can compete with Super Saiyans in raw power.

The South and Grand Kaioshin of U7 should be physically strong themselves.

It's possible that Dai and South Kaioshin were both physically strong, but their exact level is unclear. The idea that South Kaioshin was as strong as Kid Buu comes from the fact that Buu absorbed him and gained muscle mass, but that doesn't prove a complete equivalence. Also Dai Kaioshin being compared to young Moro is based more on the fact that he sealed Moro’s magic away than a comparison of strength. There’s little concrete evidence that they can rival post-RoSaT Super Saiyans. Dabra was considered the strongest in the Demon Realm after the Tamagami, so perhaps he was superior to them in direct combat.

[TobyS]

Old moro was around ssgod vegeta though so to not have been speedblitzed by moro in the flash back they have to be ss3 tier or above minimum

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Below 6, I'd say:
5: Z SS fusion.
4: Buuhan, Buutenks, Buff Buu.
3: Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, SS3, Majin Buu.
2: Freeza, Super Saiyans, Cell, Dabura.
1: Ginyu Force, saiyans, namekians, cerelians, Heatas, Galactic Patrol, etc.

Buuhan and Gohan are different tiers but Freeza and Dabra fall in the same tier?

Option #1:

Base Saiyans > Shin > Piccolo > Freeza

Takes statements at face value and stays true to bloated power scaling, has to ignore Beerus' statement.

Option #2:

Shin > Piccolo > Base Saiyans >/< Freeza

What most people thought prior to Daima. For whatever reason, Shin became weaker than everyone else, or is just reluctant to fight.

Option #3:

Shin (w/magic) > Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans > Shin

Adds more nuance with the magic variable to explain away Shin's seemingly conflicting portrayals.

Option #4:

Piccolo > Freeza > Base Saiyans > Shin > 1st form Freeza

Based on what would logically make sense in-universe for the knowledge the characters had at each time.


Which one are we going with?

Option 3 feels really off to me. If Shin can operate on SSJ/2 levels with his magic, then he's not weaker than Base Saiyans. This is just trying to have and eat the cake.

[Hugo Boss]

Having powerful magic doesn’t necessarily equate to being physically strong. Shin can momentarily hold down Super Saiyans, but that doesn’t mean he can trade blows with them. Babidi could control Dabra, yet he’s far weaker than him. Daima and Super have consistently shown Shin falling short against even Base Saiyans, reinforcing that his magic is his main asset in combat rather than raw strength. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

[Koitsukai]

Below 6, I'd say:
5: Z SS fusion.
4: Buuhan, Buutenks, Buff Buu.
3: Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, SS3, Majin Buu.
2: Freeza, Super Saiyans, Cell, Dabura.
1: Ginyu Force, saiyans, namekians, cerelians, Heatas, Galactic Patrol, etc.

Buuhan and Gohan are different tiers but Freeza and Dabra fall in the same tier?

Yeah, I know, I wasn't satisfied either. Maybe an intermediate level between 2 and 3: a "2,5", would be better so the SS2 tier(or closer to SS2) people can fall into. If we cannot create an intermediate tier, then I guess Dabura and Cell are closer to Majin Buu than to Freeza.
Now that I look at it, Buff Buu probably belongs to a lesser tier.

[Yuji]

Apparently Toyotaro confirmed Granolah and Gas pre-wish were stronger than the Ginyu Force but not quite as strong as (Namek) Freeza, which puts them at the level of "Abo and Kado."

So, a few questions.

1. How strong are Abo and Kado then?
2. How strong are Gas and Bardock in the flashback?
3. Would this Freeza reference point be 1st form or 100%?

[Koitsukai]

Apparently Toyotaro confirmed Granolah and Gas pre-wish were stronger than the Ginyu Force but not quite as strong as (Namek) Freeza, which puts them at the level of "Abo and Kado."

So, a few questions.

1. How strong are Abo and Kado then?
2. How strong are Gas and Bardock in the flashback?
3. Would this Freeza reference point be 1st form or 100%?

Is this a new revelation or the original one? if it's the latter, then there was a consensus reached I believe.

1- Their movie sorta helps clarify that. I think they were meant to be +500k, but not breaking the 1M mark.

2- In the flashback, they were both below Nappa and Goku, below the 10k. There is no need for them to surpass that mark. Gas sees saiyans as weaklings, so he should be 3-5k (otherwise, Bardock dies), and above that when he powers up. And he will grow up in 40, 50 years to be not that much stronger than that, 10x, 20x stronger.
And Bardock remains a low-class saiyan, even after the saiya-boost. Nappa, a much stronger saiyan went from like 4k to 8k with that type of boost. Bardock, at most, reached that level, but in no way I think he surpassed that.

3- I assume his 1st form if it's an in-universe reference. Granola wasn't even aware Freeza was killed by saiyans, IIRC. Toyo would've used SS Goku if that had been the case, instead of using the Ginyu Force as reference.

[Hugo Boss]

From what we know, Abo and Kado were stated to be around the level of Freeza in the JSAT special, but the Freeza being referenced there was his 1st form, not his final one. Given that Toyotaro’s statement refers to Freeza’s final form, that means he’s placing pre-wish Granolah and Gas well below that level, likely around 1st form Freeza tier instead. So, I’d say Abo and Kado are roughly on par with 1st form Freeza rather than his full power.

As for Gas in the flashback, he was likely comparable to an elite Saiyan at the time. Bardock, on the other hand, managed to surpass him temporarily, but it wasn’t a drastic difference. It was more of a battle of endurance and sheer determination rather than a massive gap in power.

[Galan007]

Question:
If indeed we get an actual SS3 fusion(or hell, maybe even a SS4 fusion at this rate) in Daima, would that retroactively give SSG Goku even more of a verifiable buff, given his statement in BoG that not even fusion would be enough to contend with Beerus(which potentially scales SSG above whatever Saiyan fusion we are likely to see in Daima)... Or am I missing something?

[QuakingStar]

No it wouldn't because Goku needs his tail for SS4, Neva's magic forcefully recreated the Tail and his magic forced Goku's body to dive deep into it's genetics to awaken SS4. SS4 was never considered in any shape way or form for DBS pre-Daima, and we don't even know what multiplier it has to begin with since it's the weakened Chibi versions of the characters in Daima who are only about 6 months ahead of the Buu Saga.