Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 17 - Official Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

I can't help but feel like...this may be awesome on a vacuum, but context is seriously pushing it down to me.

Goku vs Duu has fun choreography. But it should have lasted longer and we should have seen Goku struggle more. Honestly, I would be way more invested on this fight than anything regarding Gomah, simply because Arinsu is a better villain than "I spent 15 episodes as comic relief".

The second half, similarly, is pretty awesome on its own. It has actually made me hyped to when they finally animate the fight of everyone jumping on Moro-73. We don't usually see this kind of fights in Dragonball, and even Bulma points out how weird it is for Goku to want others to fight. The problem is...you are trying to sell me how powerful and big of a deal Gomah is it now, but out of nowhere. There is no real buildup here. It went from 0 to 100 very quickly, despite Goku not struggling enough to use SS3 until the very end. Which also brings me to another thing- hard to make it a big deal when Vegeta has already used the form. I would understand it if they still kept their power levels from the Buu saga. But now, it really just seems like GT-levels of "everyone had their turn at being fodderized despite not going at full power, now it's Goku time". Just imagine how much more hype this would be if Piccolo, Kuu or even Duu had done more fighting or Goku and Vegeta had struggled more with other enemies...there is no sense of escalation here.

Hybris is still hilarious. Please Toyotaro I don't care how, bring him back after Daima.

That, however, leads me to my biggest issue...What. The. Fuck. Is Arinsu's deal? Why would she ever, under any circunstance, even suggest betting on the Dragonballs, no matter how confident she is in Duu!? She already has them all! Just have Glorio give them to you! What the hell was even you two's agreement, then? The fact that scene would play literally the exact same if we had never been shown Glorio is working with her means this is a writing disaster. Did the writers not think of any other way she would not be able to get all the Dragonballs? It would have also been way more effective if there was more buildup about Gomah being really so strong she would need the Majins to help, but I have already mentioned that...

It really does seem like Gomah is going to be the climatic battle, which is such a bizarre choice on itself...This was modern Toriyama, I'm sure there will be some kind of twist at the end (hopefully not just what Sparking Zero already apparently spoiled about Glorio), but literally almost everyone else would have made for a cooler and more intersting final battle than Gomah. Probably doesn't help his design seems like Jiren's body with another face glued on it, but still...

Nice that Shin jumped into the fight so soon tho.

[MisteryOne]

But if there is something there, then there could be a connection between Gomah, the chibi Pride Trooper, and I dare to say the demon that killed Jiren's master.

I think it's just a matter of Toriyama having reoccurring design motifs, rather than hints of some deeper connection.

It's definetly this. The design was obviously done first with the white cape, while the transformed one is literally him just buffed up and with the Third Eye.

I have a hard time thinking Toriyama thought at any moment "wait I can't do this, looks too similar to Jiren" because I doubt he designed the transformation at all, other than throwing some vague idea on the drafts like 'Gomah buffs up and gets veey strong with the Eye'. Let's not pretend now that Jiren's clothing is some type of extremely complex designs, it's the total opposite. Not a bad thing at all, but it's also easy to end up with the same thing if you have a character with black and red groves.

Cool animation, but Gomah's design is so lame =_=
Why did they approve of this, smh.

Nice to see SSJ3 Goku back, much to my surprise he did appear in this series! Now Vegeta should do it too so they tag team him, seems he's gonna be having difficulty with one SS3 so two would definitely take him out - until he transforms further that is.

Hoping he isn't the final boss, we still got time for someone else.

You seriously thought Goku was not going to use SS3 at all in Daima? Forget basic narrative structure to hype up the villain, it's such an easy fanservice thing to do. This is literally Goku using his strongest transformation and this is Dragonball. There is no timeline where it would have not happened.

[IntangibleFancy]

I can't help but feel like...this may be awesome on a vacuum, but context is seriously pushing it down to me.

Goku vs Duu has fun choreography. But it should have lasted longer and we should have seen Goku struggle more. Honestly, I would be way more invested on this fight than anything regarding Gomah, simply because Arinsu is a better villain than "I spent 15 episodes as comic relief".

The second half, similarly, is pretty awesome on its own. It has actually made me hyped to when they finally animate the fight of everyone jumping on Moro-73. We don't usually see this kind of fights in Dragonball, and even Bulma points out how weird it is for Goku to want others to fight. The problem is...you are trying to sell me how powerful and big of a deal Gomah is it now, but out of nowhere. There is no real buildup here. It went from 0 to 100 very quickly, despite Goku not struggling enough to use SS3 until the very end. Which also brings me to another thing- hard to make it a big deal when Vegeta has already used the form. I would understand it if they still kept their power levels from the Buu saga. But now, it really just seems like GT-levels of "everyone had their turn at being fodderized despite not going at full power, now it's Goku time". Just imagine how much more hype this would be if Piccolo, Kuu or even Duu had done more fighting or Goku and Vegeta had struggled more with other enemies...there is no sense of escalation here.

Hybris is still hilarious. Please Toyotaro I don't care how, bring him back after Daima.

That, however, leads me to my biggest issue...What. The. Fuck. Is Arinsu's deal? Why would she ever, under any circunstance, even suggest betting on the Dragonballs, no matter how confident she is in Duu!? She already has them all! Just have Glorio give them to you! What the hell was even you two's agreement, then? The fact that scene would play literally the exact same if we had never been shown Glorio is working with her means this is a writing disaster. Did the writers not think of any other way she would not be able to get all the Dragonballs? It would have also been way more effective if there was more buildup about Gomah being really so strong she would need the Majins to help, but I have already mentioned that...

It really does seem like Gomah is going to be the climatic battle, which is such a bizarre choice on itself...This was modern Toriyama, I'm sure there will be some kind of twist at the end (hopefully not just what Sparking Zero already apparently spoiled about Glorio), but literally almost everyone else would have made for a cooler and more intersting final battle than Gomah. Probably doesn't help his design seems like Jiren's body with another face glued on it, but still...

Nice that Shin jumped into the fight so soon tho.

I’d like to know more about that.

[ZombieVito]

I can't help but feel like...this may be awesome on a vacuum, but context is seriously pushing it down to me.

Goku vs Duu has fun choreography. But it should have lasted longer and we should have seen Goku struggle more. Honestly, I would be way more invested on this fight than anything regarding Gomah, simply because Arinsu is a better villain than "I spent 15 episodes as comic relief".

The second half, similarly, is pretty awesome on its own. It has actually made me hyped to when they finally animate the fight of everyone jumping on Moro-73. We don't usually see this kind of fights in Dragonball, and even Bulma points out how weird it is for Goku to want others to fight. The problem is...you are trying to sell me how powerful and big of a deal Gomah is it now, but out of nowhere. There is no real buildup here. It went from 0 to 100 very quickly, despite Goku not struggling enough to use SS3 until the very end. Which also brings me to another thing- hard to make it a big deal when Vegeta has already used the form. I would understand it if they still kept their power levels from the Buu saga. But now, it really just seems like GT-levels of "everyone had their turn at being fodderized despite not going at full power, now it's Goku time". Just imagine how much more hype this would be if Piccolo, Kuu or even Duu had done more fighting or Goku and Vegeta had struggled more with other enemies...there is no sense of escalation here.

Hybris is still hilarious. Please Toyotaro I don't care how, bring him back after Daima.

That, however, leads me to my biggest issue...What. The. Fuck. Is Arinsu's deal? Why would she ever, under any circunstance, even suggest betting on the Dragonballs, no matter how confident she is in Duu!? She already has them all! Just have Glorio give them to you! What the hell was even you two's agreement, then? The fact that scene would play literally the exact same if we had never been shown Glorio is working with her means this is a writing disaster. Did the writers not think of any other way she would not be able to get all the Dragonballs? It would have also been way more effective if there was more buildup about Gomah being really so strong she would need the Majins to help, but I have already mentioned that...

It really does seem like Gomah is going to be the climatic battle, which is such a bizarre choice on itself...This was modern Toriyama, I'm sure there will be some kind of twist at the end (hopefully not just what Sparking Zero already apparently spoiled about Glorio), but literally almost everyone else would have made for a cooler and more intersting final battle than Gomah. Probably doesn't help his design seems like Jiren's body with another face glued on it, but still...

Nice that Shin jumped into the fight so soon tho.

What did Sparking Zero spoiled about Glorio?

Can you spoil me?

[Mr Baggins]

I can't help but feel like...this may be awesome on a vacuum, but context is seriously pushing it down to me.

I don't know if I'd say it's outright pushing it down just yet (it's hard to say without having the full picture) but yeah, this sums up my main issue with Daima's second half. It's still as entertaining as the first as far as the action and character interactivity are concerned, but I'm growing increasingly worried it's missing out on the context of the first half. No idea how they're going to finish all these throughlines they started with Arinsu, Glorio, etc.

[MisteryOne]

I’d like to know more about that.

What did Sparking Zero spoiled about Glorio?

Can you spoil me?

It isn't completely spelled put, but given the timing of the game's release and Daima, I would argue it isn't hard to put two and two together.

Spoiler:

The "Girl's talk" has them wonder if Dabura ever had any sons that could suceed him as Demon King. Given what Daima is about...I think it's pretty obvious Glorio is that implied son, and she wanted to defeat Gomah because of that.

Of course, that is assuming he wants to be King at all, but as early as the game released, people were talking about this, and I theorized back then if it would be Glorio or Pantzy- but the later's origins were revealed inmediatly, and her dad is even there now. So it obviously isn't her.

For what is worth, I would rather it not be true- I'm all for crosspromotion and stuff, but I would hate to have been spoiled on that potentially cool final twist by an unrelated videogame. But the timing is too much of a coincidence and it's too much of an specific thing if you ask me. It really seems like it was some kind of easter egg, but if that was the case, I would say it wasn't hidden at all...

I can't help but feel like...this may be awesome on a vacuum, but context is seriously pushing it down to me.

I don't know if I'd say it's outright pushing it down just yet (it's hard to say without having the full picture) but yeah, this sums up my main issue with Daima's second half. It's still as entertaining as the first as far as the action and character interactivity are concerned, but I'm growing increasingly worried it's missing out on the context of the first half. No idea how they're going to finish all these throughlines they started with Arinsu, Glorio, etc.

Hard agreed. For what is worth, there is still three episodes left. That's an entire hour of runtime. Lots of things could happen. But at the same time, it doesn't feel like it is enough for them to cover everything in a satisfying way while also having the insect fusion or Goku/Vegeta fighting together too (yes I'm just assuming those two things will happen, but I mean...I would be very surprised if they don't).

Kinda ironic because I praised the hell lot put of Daima for having a more satisfying pace, but now it seems like they didn't use those 20 episodes to the fullest.

Then again I have no idea why we are getting 20 episodes instead of the 24/26 that two usual cours would give, but I don't know enough of the production to understand if that has to do with it originally being a web anime or something like that.

Do not get me wrong. I have enjoyed Daima a thousand more times that I thought I would ever do. It's just that I feel like everything was going alright then someone panicked necause there was not enough time left, and pushed an emergency button to throw at my face "this is the big climax! Be hyped!". But maybe I'm just disappointed at the posibility of Gomah being truly the big villain. And you can completely blame that on my own expectations, I won't deny that. I just don't think it's a very cool call, because even the show itself seemed to agree Gomah was not worth it until now.

Hopefully these concerns age terrible, but just in case I'm nlt holding my breath anymore.

[ZeroNeonix]

I thought this episode was okay, but I have a few complaints:

1. After the slow pacing of this series up until this point, why is it the Goku vs Duu fight that gets rushed? Could we not focus the episode on them, then have Goma show up at the end?

2. Goma shows up, and Goku sees him as such a big threat that he has everyone jump in to help. So why is it Goku didn't go all out with SS3 until the end? Why didn't Vegeta use it all all? The preview for the next episode makes it seem like they just forgot that Vegeta could do that.

3. We still haven't seen what Goma is like in his normal state. While I'm sure he's massively more powerful than he was before, we have no baseline for where he started.

Wondering what happened to the bugs too. Surely, they weren't just a big red herring to make us thing they'd do a new fusion, right? They'll probably find the bugs later, but... I don't know.

[fadeddreams5]

If the pacing of this show wasn't trash, Goku's battle with Duu could have been a major one, with him being pushed to SSJ3. Gomah should have arrived at the conclusion and killed Duu. As he attempts to kill Arinsu for defying him, Kuu protects her and also dies. This would stamped him as a true threat and unjustifiable evil the viewers would root against.

Also, Glorio should have given Arinsu the dragon balls prior to these clashes. Otherwise, wtf has been the point of their alliance?

[tonysoprano300]

I feel like this show started off so strong, but idk. Now i find myself a little bored, its not bad I guess but I just don't think this is very memorable or impactful and the new characters don't actually have any identifiable character arcs/journeys. Like panzy was really cool, but she got shafted.

Still more enjoyable than most of modern DB, and I can appreciate the attempt at trying to be more than the same old formula(At least somewhat). Maybe on a full binge it will digest better.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

But if there is something there, then there could be a connection between Gomah, the chibi Pride Trooper, and I dare to say the demon that killed Jiren's master.

I think it's just a matter of Toriyama having reoccurring design motifs, rather than hints of some deeper connection.

The clothing thing with Vegeta was kinda inconsistent. The only reason he wore a leotard without his armor in the Boo arc was because the tournament didn't allow protective gear. It's probably why he wears a tank top and sweatpants for the tournament in the final comic chapter/Z episode.

[perucho1990]

I thought this episode was okay, but I have a few complaints:

1. After the slow pacing of this series up until this point, why is it the Goku vs Duu fight that gets rushed? Could we not focus the episode on them, then have Goma show up at the end?

2. Goma shows up, and Goku sees him as such a big threat that he has everyone jump in to help. So why is it Goku didn't go all out with SS3 until the end? Why didn't Vegeta use it all all? The preview for the next episode makes it seem like they just forgot that Vegeta could do that.

3. We still haven't seen what Goma is like in his normal state. While I'm sure he's massively more powerful than he was before, we have no baseline for where he started.

Wondering what happened to the bugs too. Surely, they weren't just a big red herring to make us thing they'd do a new fusion, right? They'll probably find the bugs later, but... I don't know.

Gut feeling they will redo the Goku vs Baby Vegeta fight from GT when Goku used SSJ3 but could only keep the form for a short amount of time due to his kid body.

[The Monkey King]

Great animation wasted on the worst character designs in Dragon Ball history and a boring story to boot.

A shame.

[FiReFTW]

I think this forum, the people overall in this discussion for Daima just might be the most toxic, ungrateful and unsatiable people I ever saw on any forum discussion ever.

You people are not happy with ANYTHING, the episode is slow -I HATE IT, the episode has action - I DIDN'T LIKE IT, the episode has no depth - IT HAD NOTHING DEEP, the episode is deep and has lore - I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR THING

Holy smokes, I swear to god I never ever saw something like that.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but based on such unreasonable hate and comments that I am reading it seems like some people are not happy WITH ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

From some of the comments here it would appear as if OG Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT and Dragonball Super are absolute masterpieces in every shape and form with a flawless story, animation, character design, character development, fight coreography, everything is flawless and perfect, meanwhile in Daima everything is absolute trash, horrible, bad, disgusting.

Newsflash, all of the Dragonball series have some MAJOR flaws and some MAJOR issues in case everyone here forgot already, its not like they are amazing and perfect and Daima is 10 times bellow that level and trash.

I don't see Daima as the worst in the franchise neither the best, but certainly its not an outliner like everyone here is making it out to be.

Even Dragonball Z which is probably the most solid and complete from the franchise has a TON of quite major flaws and problems.

But seems like all of that is irrelevant for everyone here since that is the past and it seems like it has some sort of protection now as a treasure of dragonball meanwhile daima is new and its trash and crap.

Its just funny honestly. Completely delusional to be honest.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm pretty sure the average opinion here, at least as far as I've seen from this forum, is that Daima is superior to Super. Ultimately it seems that people value art and animation very highly, and as much as I hate to admit this, Daima completely trashes all over Super in terms of art and animation.

Super looks very ugly compared to Daima, even I will not lie on this. (And no wonder, Super only had a few months of production while Daima had YEARS)

People here are also very critical of Super's pacing. I mean I see at least one weekly post in these threads reminding everyone that the pacing of the Tournament of Power was garbage.

It's just that Super's highs (of which it has many) make it stand out compared to Daima. Regardless this is just the first part of the final fight, so it would be best to wait until at least episode 19 to make any final judgement. That's certainly what I'm going to do.

[Luso Saiyan]

I think this forum, the people overall in this discussion for Daima just might be the most toxic, ungrateful and unsatiable people I ever saw on any forum discussion ever.

(...)

The strawmanning is strong with this one.

[SupremeKai25]

Lol, surely the artists and writers must have noticed this, right? I don't believe in coincidences.



He's quite literally just Jiren with a different head. Even the design/motif on the shirt is identical.

At this point I'm awaiting a final twist that Gomah or a demon like him somehow killed Jiren's parents and Jiren adopted the demon design because it terrified him (like Batman).

I mean, since this series clearly exists in the Super continuity, might as well go all in with these references.

[nineko]

I'm pretty sure the average opinion here, at least as far as I've seen from this forum, is that Daima is superior to Super.

Huh, no.

There is an informal poll running right now on this very forum, and Super has more than twice the votes Daima has, you should know about it, because you voted for Super in it:

Super: 15 (Zephyr, Extreme_kai, Mister_Popo, SupremeKai25, Chuquita, Yuji, YamiGoku, JulieYBM, FortuneSSJ, Thani, Nanatsu88, M16U3L2015, Saiyan007, DBFanGuy, Koitsukai)
Daima: 7 (PrinceVegetto, AliTheZombie13, Dragon Ball Ireland, Mr Baggins, BootyCheeksJohnson, super michael, kemuri07)

(and it could have been 16, but I abstained from voting for fairness. I'll wait for Daima to finish, and then I'll vote for Super, unless something improbably magical happens in the last three episodes)

[SupremeKai25]

I'm pretty sure the average opinion here, at least as far as I've seen from this forum, is that Daima is superior to Super.

Huh, no.

There is an informal poll running right now on this very forum, and Super has more than twice the votes Daima has, you should know about it, because you voted for Super in it:

Super: 15 (Zephyr, Extreme_kai, Mister_Popo, SupremeKai25, Chuquita, Yuji, YamiGoku, JulieYBM, FortuneSSJ, Thani, Nanatsu88, M16U3L2015, Saiyan007, DBFanGuy, Koitsukai)
Daima: 7 (PrinceVegetto, AliTheZombie13, Dragon Ball Ireland, Mr Baggins, BootyCheeksJohnson, super michael, kemuri07)

(and it could have been 16, but I abstained from voting for fairness. I'll wait for Daima to finish, and then I'll vote for Super, unless something improbably magical happens in the last three episodes)

Oh right, I forgot that thread was even a poll. I participate in so many polls online that's easy to forget.

[Mr Baggins]

There is an informal poll running right now on this very forum, and Super has more than twice the votes Daima has

Not that I care for popularity contests, but be careful with this extrapolation. I've noticed a fair share of users here that clearly prefer Daima haven't posted in that thread, and the poll itself hasn't even fully tallied all of its responses.

If we look outside of Kanzenshuu, I'd say the show is pretty evenly divisive among those actually tuning in, though there seems to be less viewership in general compared to Super. None of this should be surprising, however, given that Daima avoids so many of the same nostalgic pulls that Super brazenly went for.

[Jord]

I think this forum, the people overall in this discussion for Daima just might be the most toxic, ungrateful and unsatiable people I ever saw on any forum discussion ever.

You people are not happy with ANYTHING, the episode is slow -I HATE IT, the episode has action - I DIDN'T LIKE IT, the episode has no depth - IT HAD NOTHING DEEP, the episode is deep and has lore - I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR THING

Holy smokes, I swear to god I never ever saw something like that.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but based on such unreasonable hate and comments that I am reading it seems like some people are not happy WITH ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

From some of the comments here it would appear as if OG Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT and Dragonball Super are absolute masterpieces in every shape and form with a flawless story, animation, character design, character development, fight coreography, everything is flawless and perfect, meanwhile in Daima everything is absolute trash, horrible, bad, disgusting.

Newsflash, all of the Dragonball series have some MAJOR flaws and some MAJOR issues in case everyone here forgot already, its not like they are amazing and perfect and Daima is 10 times bellow that level and trash.

I don't see Daima as the worst in the franchise neither the best, but certainly its not an outliner like everyone here is making it out to be.

Even Dragonball Z which is probably the most solid and complete from the franchise has a TON of quite major flaws and problems.

But seems like all of that is irrelevant for everyone here since that is the past and it seems like it has some sort of protection now as a treasure of dragonball meanwhile daima is new and its trash and crap.

Its just funny honestly. Completely delusional to be honest.

Every show has flaws. Except for Big Bad Beetleborgs, but that's a whole different subject.
Ultimately I can look past flaws as long as the show entertains me in general.
DB, Z (kai), GT and even Super are shows that I enjoyed in general, or at least had parts which I liked and rewatch now and then. Everyone of these shows has major plot holes and issues with stuff like animation and pacing. Yet, the shows kept my attention and entertained me on some level.

Daima looks gorgeous, and I think everyone here praises the animation, which may even be the best DB has seen thus far. To me, the show is too boring and even the fights don't entertain me due to the low-stakes and underwhelming writing.

There's a general rule in fiction:
If the protagonists don't take the drama seriously, why should the viewer?

Goku and friends don't take it seriously. If they went all out from the start, this would have been a short show. As it stands, they try to create false tension, which feels like underdelivering and underestimating the viewer.