Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 17 - Official Discussion Thread

[Majin Buu]

I liked this episode. Some great character stuff and great action.

First, Arinsu. I love her, and frankly, her ambitions make her the biggest threat amongst the antagonists IMO. First. She's a bigot- Addressing Vegeta as a literal lower lifeform (and bonus points for her saying this to Vegeta specifically- Himself a formal royal who hails from a culture that viewed themselves and others in superior/inferior ways), so this is in-part ideological for her. Second, she's a warmonger- As Daimao, she wants to subjugate the entire outside universe under the Demon Realm's rule- in the vein of her Daimao predecessors that aimed at the Realm's expansion; and as she pretty much says herself- she just hates peace. I was selling her waaay short when I speculated that she just wanted to become Daimao to fund her research- She's outright evil and has goals of conquest- Compared to Gomah and Degesu, who both want power just for the sake of it.

Her interactions with Kaioshin are also interesting. First, they're noticeably friendly with each other, almost chummy even, like they're the siblings that got along with each other. I like that. It's a stark contrast to his interactions with Degesu in the last episode. He was harsh with Degesu despite Degesu being far less capable, lacking any kind of vision, and basically being nothing more than a toady punching above his weight; which might have something to do with him being the older sibling as the dynamic with them came off as "responsible older sibling" and "foolish younger sibling". In contrast, Nahare mildly laments that Arinsu is using her genius for evil- Despite her ambitions posing a far bigger threat to peace and order in the universe (I believe Arinsu is the older sibling to Nahare so that might have something to do with it). Like Degesu in the last episode, this episode fleshes out Arinsu as a foil to Nahare, but in a different flavor than Degesu: Degesu is Nahare with no vision while Arinsu is Nahare's ideological opposite.

For Nahare, the whole adventure has in effect been him returning to his homeworld after a long absence and visiting family he hasn't seen in years. Very relatable.

I liked the fight between Goku and Duu. Duu's weird, Buu-like fighting and Goku having to react to it appropriately while simultaneously keeping pace with Duu as Duu seemingly gets stronger as the fight continues kept it engaging. With the way Arinsu staked all three Dragon Balls on the outcome of this fight and the courtyard setting complete with tiled flooring, this fight had the vibe of a tournament fight. I too wish we could have seen it play out to its conclusion (or at least a near conclusion) instead of Gomah interrupting before it got to that point.

Speaking of, ditto on Gomah looking like a Pride Trooper here with his hulked-out appearance. Specifically, it looks like his head was spliced onto Jiren's body. I like that it's very much still Gomah in personality though. Him being all "stop wrecking the castle" during the fight was great. It comes off like he went to the trouble of creating a ring for them to fight in specifically to avoid further damage to the castle, coming off of the damage the Special Forces already caused with their antics. Not gonna lie, it's kinda cool seeing the guy go from tiny, unthreatening, and constantly fretting about his enemies to big, powerful, and boastful about his strength.

I liked how Goku said they needed to fight together and that Bulma in turn noted how unusual it was for Goku to do that. It sells that the Third Eye has turned Gomah into an actual threat because one of Goku's trademarks is wanting to fight one-on-one unless he's in over his head. I like that Bulma also had to prompt Arinsu to send Kuu and Duu to help fight Gomah- and that Arinsu did so without protest. Arinsu is evil, but she's not stupid. She knows that if Gomah wins, she loses; so it's only in her best interest to help the Dragon Team take him down. Thinking about it, Bulma also broke up the bickering between Goku and Vegeta earlier too. Bulma was low-key putting in work this episode.

Hybis flatly brushing off his handing the Third Eye to Gomah on a silver platter only for that conspicuous sweat drop to betray his guilt was great. I also liked how Vegeta being the one to kick off the fight served as payoff to his bickering with Goku over who got to fight Duu earlier, bonus point for it being in response to Gomah stating he wanted to test out his new strength. Neva quietly going "you help too" to Tamagami #1 and it taking a bit for #1 to figure out what he was getting at was also great. I like that The First Demon World's Tamagami is still part of the story here despite his Dragon Ball having long since been obtained. I figured his role was done after that point and he'd just be a background prop going forward- and I love that he clearly thought his job was done as well. A funny moment that subverts both the audience's and the character's expectations.

Yeah, it was weird that nothing happened with Glorio this episode since everything was set up for stuff to come to a head with him. Hopefully we'll get something in the remaining episodes.

Even though Vegeta was the one that brought Super Saiyan 3 into the show first, I still got hyped when Goku finally brought it out himself at the end. It's more associated with him than Vegeta so it feels more significant for him to finally be using it. Him kicking that off with "I guess I've got no choice" indicates that he's been actively holding back on using it until now-Likely due to what happened with it in the Buu arc.

Looking forward to seeing how things play out from here.

[JulieYBM]

Holy smokes, I swear to god I never ever saw something like that.

I'm happy for you. Go do stuff where you don't see negativity towards dumb shit, it's worth it.

[Issei189]

I enjoyed the Everyone vs Gomah fight. Animation and Chereography wise it was decent, but the artificial tension was annoying. Goku and Vegeta could have been written to use SS2 against Gomah to give us good High stakes. Even Vegeta charging at Gomah in his base form was dumb writing.

[goku the krump dancer]

So is it obvious that Gomah isn’t gonna be the final big bad? There’s probably gonna be some last minute Hail Mary from either Duu or Kuu? There has to be some sort of pay of Arinsu constantly telling Kuu that’s he’s more or less useless, in these very non comedic ways.

Buff Gomah feels about as threatening as giving Pilaf, Garlic Jr’s super form. I.E can’t take this seriously and it’s not really funny, thus making it hella boring even though it’s legit an 8 on 1 handicap match.

The next episode is called awakening but it’s more than likely not about Goku since we’ve seen him fight with SS3 already, same with Vegeta and even Gomah is already in his “awakened” state, so it HAS to be about either of the Majins or Neva.. something has to make this all worth while.

[Luso Saiyan]

Buff Gomah feels about as threatening as giving Pilaf, Garlic Jr’s super form. I.E can’t take this seriously and it’s not really funny, thus making it hella boring even though it’s legit an 8 on 1 handicap match.

I agree. One of my issues is that Marba warned about Gomah, but we never saw how powerful/threatening he was without the Third Eye. So this "transformation" feels hollow.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think this forum, the people overall in this discussion for Daima just might be the most toxic, ungrateful and unsatiable people I ever saw on any forum discussion ever.

You people are not happy with ANYTHING, the episode is slow -I HATE IT, the episode has action - I DIDN'T LIKE IT, the episode has no depth - IT HAD NOTHING DEEP, the episode is deep and has lore - I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR THING

Nobody ever complained the show has lore, people do complain about the lore just not mattering to the story.
Likewise, I'm not opposed to action. I'm opposed to mindless, hollow, meaningless action.
A character fighting to save the life of a persecuted innocent is fun, a character fighting just for the sake of it, or to be the King of the Demon Whatever that was already marginalized to begin with and no one seems to give a damn about it is the peak of "Why should I care about this if the characters don't?!"

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but based on such unreasonable hate and comments that I am reading it seems like some people are not happy WITH ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

I was pretty happy when Daima first started, had high hopes for this show.
Here, let me take an excerpt of what I said about Episode 4:

Good:
- Another good episode, really enjoyed it.

[...]

Bad:
- It took me this episode to finally admit that, yes, this show has a "Pointless Exposition" problem.

It obviously had flaws, but I was happy enough with it.
It just so happens that Daima really didn't live up to any of its premise's potential or its setups.
It throws exposition and lore that leads nowhere, this was very evident from the first few episodes of the show and only got worse from there.
There is such a thing in storytelling called Chekhov's Gun. "If it's not necessary, eliminate it." But Daima isn't following that principle, just like it isn't following the principle of "Show, don't tell" by having this ridiculous amount of pointless lore vomited in our faces.

I really, really wanted to like Daima. But it's just not a good show.

From some of the comments here it would appear as if OG Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT and Dragonball Super are absolute masterpieces in every shape and form with a flawless story, animation, character design, character development, fight coreography, everything is flawless and perfect, meanwhile in Daima everything is absolute trash, horrible, bad, disgusting.

Newsflash, all of the Dragonball series have some MAJOR flaws and some MAJOR issues in case everyone here forgot already, its not like they are amazing and perfect and Daima is 10 times bellow that level and trash.

[...]

But seems like all of that is irrelevant for everyone here since that is the past and it seems like it has some sort of protection now as a treasure of dragonball meanwhile daima is new and its trash and crap.

Its just funny honestly. Completely delusional to be honest.

If it makes you any happier, I don't like Z all that much and I really don't consider Daima worse than Super.

[FiReFTW]

I think this forum, the people overall in this discussion for Daima just might be the most toxic, ungrateful and unsatiable people I ever saw on any forum discussion ever.

You people are not happy with ANYTHING, the episode is slow -I HATE IT, the episode has action - I DIDN'T LIKE IT, the episode has no depth - IT HAD NOTHING DEEP, the episode is deep and has lore - I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR THING

Nobody ever complained the show has lore, people do complain about the lore just not mattering to the story.
Likewise, I'm not opposed to action. I'm opposed to mindless, hollow, meaningless action.
A character fighting to save the life of a persecuted innocent is fun, a character fighting just for the sake of it, or to be the King of the Demon Whatever that was already marginalized to begin with and no one seems to give a damn about it is the peak of "Why should I care about this if the characters don't?!"

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but based on such unreasonable hate and comments that I am reading it seems like some people are not happy WITH ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

I was pretty happy when Daima first started, had high hopes for this show.
Here, let me take an excerpt of what I said about Episode 4:

Good:
- Another good episode, really enjoyed it.

[...]

Bad:
- It took me this episode to finally admit that, yes, this show has a "Pointless Exposition" problem.

It obviously had flaws, but I was happy enough with it.
It just so happens that Daima really didn't live up to any of its premise's potential or its setups.
It throws exposition and lore that leads nowhere, this was very evident from the first few episodes of the show and only got worse from there.
There is such a thing in storytelling called Chekhov's Gun. "If it's not necessary, eliminate it." But Daima isn't following that principle, just like it isn't following the principle of "Show, don't tell" by having this ridiculous amount of pointless lore vomited in our faces.

I really, really wanted to like Daima. But it's just not a good show.

From some of the comments here it would appear as if OG Dragonball, Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT and Dragonball Super are absolute masterpieces in every shape and form with a flawless story, animation, character design, character development, fight coreography, everything is flawless and perfect, meanwhile in Daima everything is absolute trash, horrible, bad, disgusting.

Newsflash, all of the Dragonball series have some MAJOR flaws and some MAJOR issues in case everyone here forgot already, its not like they are amazing and perfect and Daima is 10 times bellow that level and trash.

[...]

But seems like all of that is irrelevant for everyone here since that is the past and it seems like it has some sort of protection now as a treasure of dragonball meanwhile daima is new and its trash and crap.

Its just funny honestly. Completely delusional to be honest.

If it makes you any happier, I don't like Z all that much and I really don't consider Daima worse than Super.

I mean it doesn't make me "happy" or "sad" I was just pointing out some things I see.

Your post is very well made and you bring up good points and seem to have a very unbiased view on the whole subject.

Believe me I don't think Daima is amazing and awesome I also see many things that I don't like that much, even tho I overall feel its an average and enjoyable little "journey" in the Dragonball world.

I was mostly refering to some people that quite literally state that its completely trash in every single way, yet all the past Dragonball series are almost flawless perfections.

[FiReFTW]

Holy smokes, I swear to god I never ever saw something like that.

I'm happy for you. Go do stuff where you don't see negativity towards dumb shit, it's worth it.

I was expecting someone with 17.000 posts on this forum to have a more in depth reply but oh well..

[fadeddreams5]

So is it obvious that Gomah isn’t gonna be the final big bad? There’s probably gonna be some last minute Hail Mary from either Duu or Kuu? There has to be some sort of pay of Arinsu constantly telling Kuu that’s he’s more or less useless, in these very non comedic ways.

Buff Gomah feels about as threatening as giving Pilaf, Garlic Jr’s super form. I.E can’t take this seriously and it’s not really funny, thus making it hella boring even though it’s legit an 8 on 1 handicap match.

The next episode is called awakening but it’s more than likely not about Goku since we’ve seen him fight with SS3 already, same with Vegeta and even Gomah is already in his “awakened” state, so it HAS to be about either of the Majins or Neva.. something has to make this all worth while.

Nah, man. Gomah is very likely it. These are the same people that revealed Zamasu was indeed the bad guy. They're not gonna throw any curveballs with only 3 episodes left. lol. Awakening probably refers to the inevitable fusion that the episode will end with.

[JulieYBM]

Holy smokes, I swear to god I never ever saw something like that.

I'm happy for you. Go do stuff where you don't see negativity towards dumb shit, it's worth it.

I was expecting someone with 17.000 posts on this forum to have a more in depth reply but oh well..

my words of wisdom: having 17,000 posts on a forum sucks and people should avoid it.

be free, my little butterflies!

[VegettoEX]

a very unbiased view on the whole subject.

Can you share more exactly about how you believe it's possible to have an "unbiased" view on a piece of commercial art? What exactly does that mean in the first place? Do you simply mean "balanced" in that you expect a sandwich of "good" vs. "bad" critiques? If so, what does that bring to the table in terms of worthwhile community criticism and discourse?

I'd love to hear more, because an "unbiased" review of Dragon Ball Daima would be:

"Dragon Ball Daima is a show that airs on Fuji TV in Japan. Its timeslot is different compared to previous iterations of the franchise. Various production partners worked on the show to different degrees compared to previous iterations of the franchise. The show is broadcast internationally via various streaming platforms and partner companies. It is currently on its 17th of 20 reported total episodes."

[fadeddreams5]

I wish Tien could replace his third eye with Gomah's so he could become relevant again.

[JulieYBM]

During the rotating shot that Oonishi Ryou did at the end of the episode where everyone is charging up their attacks against Gomah, I was really quite stricken by the strength with which Kobayashi Yumiko delivered her charging vocalization noise thingy. I'm not sure if it was just the mixing, but go back and listen to it and tell me that isn't a hell of a scream. I hope Kobayashi did not cause harm doing that stuff. >_<

I also wanted to highlight the rotation shots in general. Episode Director Karasawa seems quite fond of them, but I really enjoyed how both Oonishi Ryou and Ishigami Hiromi pulled them off this episode. They have got to be a pain in the ass to pull off. I do wish Ishigami had had the time to animate the background, though, and not rely on CG.

Also, point to the way that Tamagami #1 is drawn. What a dork, just looking up at the fight before being told to join in. Damn, girl. I wish he had more personality to him and more opportunities to do stuff. Daima would have been so much better if episodes had spent time building up to this climax where he joins in if he had been portrayed as more than a mysterious figure like the other two.

[AliTheZombie13]

I would just like to say here, I am very much biased by my previous experiences with this franchise.

Daima promises a Dragon Ball Hunt? Pilaf, Red Ribbon, King Piccolo, Namek and Baby all offered that.
Daima promises to turn the characters into kids and nerf them to impose limitations? GT already did that.
Daima promises battles and adventures in a magical land? The entire franchise already offers that.

I'm not a newborn watching this series for the very first time like it was supposedly intended to be seen.
So, a lot of Daima to me feels very much like, "I have already watched all of this done before, and IMHO, done much better."

I can't erase the rest of the franchise off my brain while considering Daima.

[tonysoprano300]

a very unbiased view on the whole subject.

Can you share more exactly about how you believe it's possible to have an "unbiased" view on a piece of commercial art? What exactly does that mean in the first place? Do you simply mean "balanced" in that you expect a sandwich of "good" vs. "bad" critiques? If so, what does that bring to the table in terms of worthwhile community criticism and discourse?

I'd love to hear more, because an "unbiased" review of Dragon Ball Daima would be:

"Dragon Ball Daima is a show that airs on Fuji TV in Japan. Its timeslot is different compared to previous iterations of the franchise. Various production partners worked on the show to different degrees compared to previous iterations of the franchise. The show is broadcast internationally via various streaming platforms and partner companies. It is currently on its 17th of 20 reported total episodes."

in the literal sense, there no such thing as an unbiased value judgment. My guess is that it just means there are folks who try to observe a piece of art without letting certain predispositions taint their analysis to the point of absurdity. So for example, people who hate the TLOU Part II because it has "Woke politics" or "Forced Diversity" are letting personal bias completely dominate their analysis of a piece of media. Or folks who are obsessed with something being "Canon" may let their personal bias affect their analysis of something like DBGT.

[Vegard Aune]

So is it obvious that Gomah isn’t gonna be the final big bad? There’s probably gonna be some last minute Hail Mary from either Duu or Kuu? There has to be some sort of pay of Arinsu constantly telling Kuu that’s he’s more or less useless, in these very non comedic ways.

Buff Gomah feels about as threatening as giving Pilaf, Garlic Jr’s super form. I.E can’t take this seriously and it’s not really funny, thus making it hella boring even though it’s legit an 8 on 1 handicap match.

The next episode is called awakening but it’s more than likely not about Goku since we’ve seen him fight with SS3 already, same with Vegeta and even Gomah is already in his “awakened” state, so it HAS to be about either of the Majins or Neva.. something has to make this all worth while.

Nah, man. Gomah is very likely it. These are the same people that revealed Zamasu was indeed the bad guy. They're not gonna throw any curveballs with only 3 episodes left. lol. Awakening probably refers to the inevitable fusion that the episode will end with.

Just looking at Daima's fight pacing throughout... I really can't see the Gomah fight going till 20. The only major fights we've had actually even go past a single episode would be the simultaneous fights of Vegeta VS Tamagami 2 and Doo VS Tamagami 3. Other than that, every fight the show has done before this has been fairly briskly paced. And as it stands, with this Gomah fight... Everyone's already chipped in, and Goku has already assumed his most powerful form. I just don't see this specific fight still having three episodes' worth of material left in it. It feels like it's already played most of its cards. Plus I still feel like Arinsu and the Majins need some sort of payoff because as it stands, their actual villainy amounts to temporarily distracting Goku & Co for half an episode, in a fight that did not even get to conclude. Even taking into account how incredibly nothing Degesu turned out to be, I refuse to believe this is all we're getting out of a character with as much buildup as Arinsu. Oh, and we also need payoff on the "Glorio secretly working for her" thing.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm predicting SOMETHING will usurp him soon, be that Neva suddenly revealing he was evil all along, or Arinsu stealing the DBs and making a wish to make her all powerful, or IDK, maybe Glorio will surprise everybody and become the final true last boss.

But Gomah felt very much nonthreatening this episode. That the episode was titled after him just like Degesu, or that Goku waited an entire episode to turn SSJ3, and that's not even counting the fact Vegeta didn't transform yet, is a very good indicator that he is not a threat and he will not last.

[YamiGoku]

In a more positive note Jaka Jaan full version has been posted on Zedd channel on youtube yesterday.

I still like the opening, the full version is not as good as I imagined, but still very enjoyable.

[fadeddreams5]

So is it obvious that Gomah isn’t gonna be the final big bad? There’s probably gonna be some last minute Hail Mary from either Duu or Kuu? There has to be some sort of pay of Arinsu constantly telling Kuu that’s he’s more or less useless, in these very non comedic ways.

Buff Gomah feels about as threatening as giving Pilaf, Garlic Jr’s super form. I.E can’t take this seriously and it’s not really funny, thus making it hella boring even though it’s legit an 8 on 1 handicap match.

The next episode is called awakening but it’s more than likely not about Goku since we’ve seen him fight with SS3 already, same with Vegeta and even Gomah is already in his “awakened” state, so it HAS to be about either of the Majins or Neva.. something has to make this all worth while.

Nah, man. Gomah is very likely it. These are the same people that revealed Zamasu was indeed the bad guy. They're not gonna throw any curveballs with only 3 episodes left. lol. Awakening probably refers to the inevitable fusion that the episode will end with.

Just looking at Daima's fight pacing throughout... I really can't see the Gomah fight going till 20. The only major fights we've had actually even go past a single episode would be the simultaneous fights of Vegeta VS Tamagami 2 and Doo VS Tamagami 3. Other than that, every fight the show has done before this has been fairly briskly paced. And as it stands, with this Gomah fight... Everyone's already chipped in, and Goku has already assumed his most powerful form. I just don't see this specific fight still having three episodes' worth of material left in it. It feels like it's already played most of its cards. Plus I still feel like Arinsu and the Majins need some sort of payoff because as it stands, their actual villainy amounts to temporarily distracting Goku & Co for half an episode, in a fight that did not even get to conclude. Even taking into account how incredibly nothing Degesu turned out to be, I refuse to believe this is all we're getting out of a character with as much buildup as Arinsu. Oh, and we also need payoff on the "Glorio secretly working for her" thing.

I predict SSJ3 Goku failing to win because of the energy depleting, ala Baby fight. Thus, they will require fusion, which will likely take place at the very end of ep. 18, and conclude the battle in ep. 19. The rest will involve using the Dragon Balls to return as adults, and a feel-good epilogue in ep. 20.

That said, I do feel somewhere in the midst of that, Arinsu will get all three dragon balls and Glorio will reveal his intentions. But I feel they will be cut short and there won't be any other major battles.

Just my prediction. But I hope I'm wrong and it does surprise me a bit.

[Bardock God of Time]

I wish Tien could replace his third eye with Gomah's so he could become relevant again.

Right???? Was Tien even at the party? I don't even remember but would be so cool if Tien became relevant

Spoiler:

Neva will probably end up getting the Third Eye or something