Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Yuji wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:02 pmWell, in Super, we see the results of a thousand years in a civilization. It's enough for planet Barbari to start developing religion and language. Maybe Toriyama was unaware of how long evolution takes.
Or maybe Shin himself was unaware of it. Which is par for the course.
Toriyama not understanding that stuff would make sense. Shin just not knowing what the hell he's talking about is a great option that I hadn't considered.
Found a quote from a Toriyama interview that may further my hypothesis that Shin is only a thousand years old.
Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.
Shin does not know who Beerus is in Super, so presumably he hasn't had one of his meetings with the Kaioshin. This implies he last saw the Kaioshin 1000 years ago when they were all alive.
From the Kaiōshin Realm, the East Kaiōshin and Elder Kaiōshin telepathically talk to North Kaiō, in the afterlife, about the early awakening of “Beerus”. Meanwhile Goku, who came to Kaiō’s planet to train, is causing a ruckus in the background and Kaiō tells him to keep quiet. When Kaiōshin realizes that Goku is there, he warns Kaiō not to let him hear anything about Beerus, lest he become interested.
In the (Viz) manga he says:
Ugh... Lord of the Northern Worlds... I told you to never let them meet!
In both of these, he's already under the impression that letting Goku meet Beerus would be a bad idea. Even in the TV anime he knows who Beerus is. Importantly, though, he doesn't seem to understand what kind of person Beerus is, suggesting that he's probably never actually met Beerus. Or, if he did, it wasn't long enough to really know what he's like. Here's how their exchange goes:
Spoiler:
The Elder Kaioshin is shook when he senses that Beerus has destroyed another planet. Kibitoshin thinks to himself:
I have never seen him so afraid. Is Beerus that...
Then the Elder Kaioshin explains (for the audience):
In this world, there are gods like us who create planets and life. But there is also a god who destroys planets and life. He is the God of Destruction Beerus.
Kibitoshin responds:
Yes, I know this. In other words, there is also meaning in destruction.
Elder Kaioshin responds back:
No! It's meaningless! Beerus destroys on a whim. There's only one thing we can do. We must make sure nothing irritates Beerus. We can only hope that no one is planning to challenge him to a battle.
Finally, Kibitoshin wonders if there's anyone like that, and quickly thinks of Goku.
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As for that interview, I'm not sure how useful it is in settling anything relating to Daima, given that Daima explicitly contradicts plenty of stuff from it:
Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibbidi made him, the truth is that one called “Boo” was not actually created by Bibbidi , but has existed since time immemorial.
But in Daima, he was created by Marba.
Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin.
But in Daima, they are born as Glind, and later become Kaioshin.
if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant.
But in Daima, they grow in the Second Demon World, and if the trees that birth them were simply moved to the Kaioshin Realm, Shin/Nahare probably wouldn't have confirmed Bulma's speculation that the Glind are going to die out.
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Did Toriyama remember any of the stuff he mentioned in that interview when he was helping out with Daima? Did he deliberately change things from that? Did he intend that everything that's contradicted is a deliberate change, and everything that isn't is meant to stay true? Maybe, maybe not.
If anything, it's the combination of "TV Super having Kibitoshin not know Beerus very well" and "the Twel-Boo Mysteries having a once every 1000 years coordination meeting between the Kaioshin and Beerus" that makes Shin out to be less than 1000 years old. Which would mean that Boo's rampage as explained in the original manga was less than 1000 years ago.
Trying to fit the original manga, the original anime, the guidebooks, the interviews, Super's various incarnations, and Daima all together requires that a great deal of details be outright discarded and ignored. I guess the fun part is figuring out which ones you prefer to do that with. Trying to tell the difference between "Toriyama forgot about this older detail" and "Toriyama explicitly wanted to change this older detail" is a decidedly impossible nightmare of a task.
Trying to fit the original manga, the original anime, the guidebooks, the interviews, Super's various incarnations, and Daima all together requires that a great deal of details be outright discarded and ignored. I guess the fun part is figuring out which ones you prefer to do that with. Trying to tell the difference between "Toriyama forgot about this older detail" and "Toriyama explicitly wanted to change this older detail" is a decidedly impossible nightmare of a task.
Couldn't have phrased it better. I feel like Toyotarou got a bunch of homework to put it all together
Wondering how far he can go correcting things out of respect for Toriyama.
And another thing with the latest episode: Demon Realm people will only reach an age of around 1000 years old - but the Bug seller sold the Evil third eye before... Probably intended to be around the 1000-10000 years old, but it would also be in the 5 million year range...
