Daima and its implications for the Battle of the Gods

[Peach]

No... it absolutely would not have. SSJG, which is a form stronger than SSJ4 (as it's stated by multiple characters to be beyond anything Goku had at that point), stood no chance against Beerus who was only using 10% of his power. SSJ4 is legit fodder. It would get finger-flicked like SSJ3 and "that's my Bulma!!!" Vegeta.

I don't find this story confusing at all. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 was always smaller than the gap between SSJ3 and SSJG. That was already made evident in 2013. Nothing that appears in Daima contradicts this.

You bring up an interesting point. It took Beerus 10% of his power to beat the "My Bulma" powerup Vegeta used

No? I said Beerus 10% was enough to defeat SSG Goku, who is beyond SSJ3, SSJ4, and "My Bulma!"

Beerus used 70% of his power against God Goku. He used 10% on Vegeta with the My Bulma powerup.

If we take into account that Vegeta also had Super Saiyan 3, which could make him EVEN STRONGER and that Goku has Super Saiyan 4 which could roughly be on par with that or stronger, then Super Saiyan 4 Vegito logically should have been able to compete with Beerus after the multipliers from the fusion and new form.

[SupremeKai25]

You bring up an interesting point. It took Beerus 10% of his power to beat the "My Bulma" powerup Vegeta used

No? I said Beerus 10% was enough to defeat SSG Goku, who is beyond SSJ3, SSJ4, and "My Bulma!"

Beerus used 70% of his power against God Goku. He used 10% on Vegeta with the My Bulma powerup.

If we take into account that Vegeta also had Super Saiyan 3, which could make him EVEN STRONGER and that Goku has Super Saiyan 4 which could roughly be on par with that or stronger, then Super Saiyan 4 Vegito logically should have been able to compete with Beerus after the multipliers from the fusion and new form.

Unfortunately one of the oldest debates since 2013 is also SSJ2 "My Bulma" vs. SSJ3, so once again you're making suppositions and assumptions. The situation is not as clear-cut as you think.

Yes, I suppose it's possible. Ultimately, it's a big unknown.

The only certainty we have is that Goku with the tools at his disposal stood no chance against Beerus. Not even fusion would have worked. It's the whole point of the God ritual in the first place. This is BoG lore: Beerus is beyond anything Goku had up to that point. Daima doesn't contradict this as it never presents SSJ4 as a form that could challenge Beerus, at least as of episode 18.

And anyway I also made another point: that the form has certain restrictions to the point that Goku could not use it against Beerus. As I said, maybe the form requires to be in the Demon realm or Neva's magic to activate. Daima isn't even over, and anyway it wouldn't be a plot hole.

[Peach]

No? I said Beerus 10% was enough to defeat SSG Goku, who is beyond SSJ3, SSJ4, and "My Bulma!"

Beerus used 70% of his power against God Goku. He used 10% on Vegeta with the My Bulma powerup.

If we take into account that Vegeta also had Super Saiyan 3, which could make him EVEN STRONGER and that Goku has Super Saiyan 4 which could roughly be on par with that or stronger, then Super Saiyan 4 Vegito logically should have been able to compete with Beerus after the multipliers from the fusion and new form.

Unfortunately one of the oldest debates since 2013 is also SSJ2 "My Bulma" vs. SSJ3, so once again you're making suppositions and assumptions. The situation is not as clear-cut as you think.

Yes, I suppose it's possible. Ultimately, it's a big unknown.

The only certainty we have is that Goku with the tools at his disposal stood no chance against Beerus. Not even fusion would have worked. It's the whole point of the God ritual in the first place. This is BoG lore: Beerus is beyond anything Goku had up to that point. Daima doesn't contradicts this as it never presents SSJ4 as a form that could challenge Beerus, at least as of episode 18.

Maybe you're right.

Also, I suppose am looking at this through the lens of powerscaling and powerscaling a Beerus that has quietly been retconned and not through the lens of what is thematic.

Man. It's fun to speculate about "What if" though. What if it was shown off, even if it made no difference. Maybe this is something future games could consider.

[SupremeKai25]

Beerus used 70% of his power against God Goku. He used 10% on Vegeta with the My Bulma powerup.

If we take into account that Vegeta also had Super Saiyan 3, which could make him EVEN STRONGER and that Goku has Super Saiyan 4 which could roughly be on par with that or stronger, then Super Saiyan 4 Vegito logically should have been able to compete with Beerus after the multipliers from the fusion and new form.

Unfortunately one of the oldest debates since 2013 is also SSJ2 "My Bulma" vs. SSJ3, so once again you're making suppositions and assumptions. The situation is not as clear-cut as you think.

Yes, I suppose it's possible. Ultimately, it's a big unknown.

The only certainty we have is that Goku with the tools at his disposal stood no chance against Beerus. Not even fusion would have worked. It's the whole point of the God ritual in the first place. This is BoG lore: Beerus is beyond anything Goku had up to that point. Daima doesn't contradicts this as it never presents SSJ4 as a form that could challenge Beerus, at least as of episode 18.

Maybe you're right.

Also, I suppose am looking at this through the lens of powerscaling and powerscaling a Beerus that has quietly been retconned and not through the lens of what is thematic.

Man. It's fun to speculate about "What if" though. What if it was shown off, even if it made no difference. Maybe this is something future games could consider.

I don't consider myself a power-scaler, nor do I see this whole discussion as power-scaling.

It's just the lore/story. It's the story that Beerus is beyond anything Goku has up to that point. That is why the God ritual is so important. It elevates Goku to a new realm, beyond anything he had seen thus far.

Daima takes place before Super, so SSJG must be beyond anything from Daima, including SSJ4.

Either way, it's very important to remember that there's still two episodes left of Daima. I don't feel confident with this discussion right now. For all we know, the final two episodes could change everyone that we know of Super.

But something tells me Daima won't be the last time that SSJ4 appears. Toyotaro could combine SSJ4 with Ultra Instinct and make SSJ5 canon. Now that SSJ4 itself is canon, it is possible.

[ZombieVito]

Goku not using SS4 against Beerus can be excused by saying he can't use it without Neva but Vegeta not using SS3 doesn't have one.

There's just no reason why he choose to fight with a weaker form when the Earth was at stake. Especially since he already saw Boo, Gotenks and Gohan go down easily.

[Cybersai]

It's very likely Neva's "magic" is the reason Goku transformed and he won't be able to use it without him. It's not that hard to explain why he never uses it in Super.

[BernardoCairo]

Goku not using SS4 against Beerus can be excused by saying he can't use it without Neva but Vegeta not using SS3 doesn't have one.

One could argue that Vegeta just doesn't feel comfortable with Super Saiyajin 3. In all three versions of Battle of Gods he surpassed Goku Super Saiyajin 3 with just Super Saiyajin 2. And in the manga, Toyotaro placed a big emphasis on how both Trunks and Vegeta were able to master Super Saiyajin 2 even beyond that.

[Hulk10]

It's very likely Neva's "magic" is the reason Goku transformed and he won't be able to use it without him. It's not that hard to explain why he never uses it in Super.

Indeed, or maybe not.

[Hugo Boss]

But something tells me Daima won't be the last time that SSJ4 appears. Toyotaro could combine SSJ4 with Ultra Instinct and make SSJ5 canon. Now that SSJ4 itself is canon, it is possible.

Don’t give them ideas! Next thing you know, we’ll have ‘Ultra Primal Instinct’ with silver fur. At this point, nothing is off the table!

[JulieYBM]

But something tells me Daima won't be the last time that SSJ4 appears. Toyotaro could combine SSJ4 with Ultra Instinct and make SSJ5 canon. Now that SSJ4 itself is canon, it is possible.

Don’t give them ideas! Next thing you know, we’ll have ‘Ultra Primal Instinct’ with silver fur. At this point, nothing is off the table!

They should do this and give this form to everyone.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The simplest explanation: SSJ4 (at least Daima's SSJ4, and Daima as a whole) didn't exist when BoG/Super started. That's it, that's literally it.

If you must set the show prior to Super's events, why not take the time to explain why certain aspects weren't seen in Super ? They have the time to waste on some giant but not throw in a couple of lines to clear things up ? Also, why was this set before Super and not after ? There have been some truly odd decisions made with this series.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The simplest explanation: SSJ4 (at least Daima's SSJ4, and Daima as a whole) didn't exist when BoG/Super started. That's it, that's literally it.

If you must set the show prior to Super's events, why not take the time to explain why certain aspects weren't seen in Super ? They have the time to waste on some giant but not throw in a couple of lines to clear things up ? Also, why was this set before Super and not after ? There have been some truly odd decisions made with this series.

Next thing you know, we’ll have ‘Ultra Primal Instinct’ with silver fur. At this point, nothing is off the table!

This was in Xenoverse 2, so it's only a matter of time.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dbxv2 ... 0813135314

[Tian]

There have been some truly odd decisions made with this series.

I Can't wait for another interquel to make the continuity of the franchise more confusing and ilogical.

[ZombieVito]

Goku not using SS4 against Beerus can be excused by saying he can't use it without Neva but Vegeta not using SS3 doesn't have one.

One could argue that Vegeta just doesn't feel comfortable with Super Saiyajin 3. In all three versions of Battle of Gods he surpassed Goku Super Saiyajin 3 with just Super Saiyajin 2. And in the manga, Toyotaro placed a big emphasis on how both Trunks and Vegeta were able to master Super Saiyajin 2 even beyond that.

He seemed very comfortable to me when he used it against Tamagami 2.

[JulieYBM]

There have been some truly odd decisions made with this series.

I Can't wait for another interquel to make the continuity of the franchise more confusing and ilogical.

I can't wait for a story arc set a few months before Raditz appears where Gokuu achieved a new transformation, too.

[BernardoCairo]

They should do this and give this form to everyone.

Besides the fact that this form would be absurd, I really hope they keep Ultra Instinct for Goku only. It's really cool to have characters following their own path. And they have already doubled down on this.

Also, why was this set before Super and not after ? There have been some truly odd decisions made with this series.

I think the idea was to make a pretty direct sequel to the Boo saga in themes and lore. Plus, they probably didn't want to mess with what Toyotaro is doing at the later point in the timeline.

[Tian]

I can't wait for a story arc set a few months before Raditz appears where Gokuu achieved a new transformation, too.

Or maybe canonize the false Super Saiyan form we've seen in Z Movie 4.

[BernardoCairo]

He seemed very comfortable to me when he used it against Tamagami 2.

Yeah, but Tamagami 2 was a much weaker enemy than Beerus, not a threat to him. And if he can achieve even greater power with a more efficient form, why would he use Super Saiyajin 3?
This is all headcanon, of course. But it's not impossible to come up with a reason for him to have ditched Super Saiyajin 3.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I think the idea was to make a pretty direct sequel to the Boo saga in themes and lore. Plus, they probably didn't want to mess with what Toyotaro is doing at the later point in the timeline.

I understand both of these points, but why not take the time to address the things that don't line up with Super ? If you're going to make a prequel, it's important it lines up with what's already established after it. I guess that could still happen, but I honestly doubt it. If anything, I expect more issues to pop up during these last two episodes.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, but Tamagami 2 was a much weaker enemy than Beerus, not a threat to him. And if he can achieve even greater power with a more efficient form, why would he use Super Saiyajin 3?
This is all headcanon, of course. But it's not impossible to come up with a reason for him to have ditched Super Saiyajin 3.

Vegeta doesn't know this. Him choosing to use a weaker form against Beerus, who threatens to destroy them all is a plot hole and no amount of dancing around it works.