Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Vegeta also having SS3 does not mean Vegeta = Goku. In fact before he freaks out vs Beerus the only time he is equal to Goku is when he is SS2 Majin Vegeta vs SS2 Goku. Goku likely surpasses him in the same forms again.

[LightBing]

What do you guys think about Vegeta weakening while Goku didn’t as much, to the point of even being able to transform into SSJ3? Vegeta ended up on the ground, unable to fight. Does this mean that Goku is ultimately stronger than Vegeta?

I wouldn't draw any conclusions when Vegeta was blatantly sidelined for likely a latter plot. He's certainly not weaker than Piccolo and Glorio, both of them performed better than him.
The powerscalling is just bad.

Still, the team up of SSJ3 Goku, Doo and Tamagami 1, felt like it was in the story to illustrate the three strongest.

[JulieYBM]

They needed Vegeta to be out of action to focus on Gokuu so that he could achieve Super Saiyan 4. They'll probably focus on Vegeta in Episode #19.

They should've done a better job of displaying Vegeta taking the most damage, though. Hasve him get hit in the solar plexus or something lol

[FinalForumPodcast]

...meh.

He turned red and then nothing happened. I dunno. This is maybe the least underwhelming first-time-form transformation in Dragon Ball's history...except that it's technically not the first time we've seen SSJ4, except that GT is not (?) in continuity with this, except that you need to know GT in order to care about this moment, except that....sigh....

This episode specifically crashing Crunchyroll's servers is a bit of a yikes, too. Moneygrubbing corporations almost never learn the right lesson from anything and expecting to get anything other than a flood of "Here. Here's some nostalgia. Clap at it." in the future when that's the only thing that made this show make a ripple feels like a fool's errand.

I liked the show better when it was just silly adventure, not placating nostalgia wankery.

[Noah]

Pretty sure I'm not the only one who thought there should've been more reactions from the others about Goku's new form, especially this one in the pic below, and him showing some dissatisfaction like when he achieved SSJG to fight Beerus

[kemuri07]

But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

Ding ding ding. This right here is the key problem with a LOT of modern DB discourse. Too many people treat storytelling as if it's an equation that can just be "solved". As long as something "makes sense" and isn't literally an objective plot hole, everything is fine. And therefor, if you criticize it, you're either objectively wrong or you just "don't understand it". It's all science, no art. If X, then Y, then Z. Nothing in between. No actual contextual analysis of whether or not something is narratively satisfying, or thematically fitting, or is properly built-up, or literally anything beyond surface level, rigid logic. If you can headcanon your way to reverse engineer something to "make sense", then you've "solved" the story and you move on, like it's some sort of algebra problem.

That is, ironically, what a lot of critique feels like at times too. Like storytelling is a one-size-fits-all affair, with a complete set of strict rules that every single one needs to follow, else it is poorly written. They need to make sure they "show don't tell", and "fire all of Chekov's Guns", and "follow the Hero's Journey", and whatever other concepts the person making the critique read about on TV Tropes and/or learned about in their Intro to English Lit class. That's not even to say these aren't helpful devices and concepts for analyzing and critiquing a story, but it often feels like they're treated as prescriptive rules that storytellers must follow in order for the work to be Good™, rather than common trends that many storytellers have followed. It comes across like a substitute for analysis and critique all too often.

This is a perfect post and I demand it be put on a t-shirt.

It really perfectly explains my frustration with a lot of the discourse for this show.

Is Daima perfect. Fuck no. And I absolutely agree that Daima biggest issue is that it feels like Toriyama and Co had a neat scenario that wasn’t detailed enough to make it work for a 20 episode anime (which is simultaneously too many episodes for what this show is while also not enough to creat the level of depth required in a show like this)

But I’ve also been willing to meet Daima in the middle and because of this found enough fun with every episode. I’ve managed my expectations and have chosen to crtitique Daima on what it is rather than what it isn’t. Daima is a lark, and not the super serious next chapter of DB that people keep expecting this to be.

[Saturnine]

Huh, did you forgot that Ultimate Gohan is above SSJ3 and also has black hair?

Yeah, but Gohan's form was never sold to us or portrayed as the intended level above SSj3, it was just Gohan having his power unleashed. Meanwhile SSj4 in GT was painted as a direct successor transformation of the Super Saiyan variety. That's why black hair never worked for me personally, it just looks more mundane than the shiny, golden splendor of the SSj transformations. I think what they did in Daima was a definite improvement, even if it infringes on SSj God territory color-wise. My personal favorite outcome would have been golden hair plus golden fur as the SSj4 look, but that would have made slightly more sense for the GT path of achieving it I think (going through Oozaru and a special golden variety on top of it).

[PhantomSaiyan]

Yeah, but Gohan's form was never sold to us or portrayed as the intended level above SSj3, it was just Gohan having his power unleashed. Meanwhile SSj4 in GT was painted as a direct successor transformation of the Super Saiyan variety. That's why black hair never worked for me personally, it just looks more mundane than the shiny, golden splendor of the SSj transformations. I think what they did in Daima was a definite improvement, even if it infringes on SSj God territory color-wise. My personal favorite outcome would have been golden hair plus golden fur as the SSj4 look, but that would have made slightly more sense for the GT path of achieving it I think (going through Oozaru and a special golden variety on top of it).

Super Saiyan 4 as whole is the furthest thing from mundane, kinda silly imo to call it mundane just because it has black hair when it's literally the most extravagant (and in a god way) transformation

[Saturnine]

Super Saiyan 4 as whole is the furthest thing from mundane, kinda silly imo to call it mundane just because it has black hair when it's literally the most extravagant (and in a god way) transformation

Just because it looks striking, doesn't mean it's not mundane. It literally looks like a basic "Ozaru condensed to human" thing, with the only thing marking it as something more is the fact that the fur is red. Imagine if it were brown, though. Just that one little change and we're back to mundane territory big time. In fact, it's a lot like what they did in DBZ: Broly, except there they decided to forego the fur entirely - and still position it below the first SSj form, which makes perfect sense.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Just because it looks striking, doesn't mean it's not mundane. It literally looks like a basic "Ozaru condensed to human" thing, with the only thing marking it as something more is the fact that the fur is red. Imagine if it were brown, though. Just that one little change and we're back to mundane territory big time. In fact, it's a lot like what they did in DBZ: Broly, except there they decided to forego the fur entirely - and still position it below the first SSj form, which makes perfect sense.

It being striking absolutely makes it not mundade, what are you talking about?

Definition of striking: attracting attention by reason of being unusual, extreme, or prominent.

There's literally nothing basic about the form, that's also reinforced by the fact that your attempt to make it seem mundande involves actively changing elements of its design.

"This thing would look mundane if I remove a key aspect of its design" like no shit man lol and tbh, even if you make the fur brown, it still doesn't look as basic as you make it out to be, so idek what you're on about. I completely disagree on all fronts

[Saturnine]

It being striking absolutely makes it not mundade, what are you talking about?

Definition of striking: attracting attention by reason of being unusual, extreme, or prominent.

There's literally nothing basic about the form, that's also reinforced by the fact that your attempt to make it seem mundande involves actively changing elements of its design.

"This thing would look mundane if I remove a key aspect of its design" like no shit man lol and tbh, even if you make the fur brown, it still doesn't look as basic as you make it out to be, so idek what you're on about. I completely disagree on all fronts

I never said "basic", I said "mundane". The design is quite busy. But the lack of gold coloring still makes it feel less legendary, otherworldly or special. Makes it feel like something achievable by mere mortals, rather than something that's a step above SSj3. Black to golden felt really special and you know... gilded like gold. SSj4 reverses that entirely, with the only thing it keeps as a reminder of the former glory is the color of the aura.

I still think if you wanted an "ultimate version of Super Saiyan that incorporates elements of the Great Ape", it would have looked much better (never mind conceptually consistent) with both blonde hair and golden fur.

[JulieYBM]

It being striking absolutely makes it not mundade, what are you talking about?

Definition of striking: attracting attention by reason of being unusual, extreme, or prominent.

There's literally nothing basic about the form, that's also reinforced by the fact that your attempt to make it seem mundande involves actively changing elements of its design.

"This thing would look mundane if I remove a key aspect of its design" like no shit man lol and tbh, even if you make the fur brown, it still doesn't look as basic as you make it out to be, so idek what you're on about. I completely disagree on all fronts

I never said "basic", I said "mundane". The design is quite busy. But the lack of gold coloring still makes it feel less legendary, otherworldly or special. Makes it feel like something achievable by mere mortals, rather than something that's a step above SSj3. Black to golden felt really special and you know... gilded like gold. SSj4 reverses that entirely, with the only thing it keeps as a reminder of the former glory is the color of the aura.

I still think if you wanted an "ultimate version of Super Saiyan that incorporates elements of the Great Ape", it would have looked much better (never mind conceptually consistent) with both blonde hair and golden fur.

Super Saiyan 4 looks gay, that's better than 'legendary'.

[Saturnine]

Super Saiyan 4 looks gay, that's better than 'legendary'.

ok, you win the argument, can't argue with that logic

gay = manly and manly = instant brownie points in Mexico and Brazil

[QuakingStar]

They really just took SS3, Potential Unleashed and Great Ape and mashed it into one thing, but that's fine because it makes sense. Super Saiyan forms, Great Ape form, the tail, and the users inner potential unleashed while using the form. Super Saiyan 4 is a natural amalgamation of everything a Saiyan is. Literally the Ultimate mortal Saiyans form, which itself has ways to be advanced further.

[Saturnine]

They really just took SS3, Potential Unleashed and Great Ape and mashed it into one thing, but that's fine because it makes sense. Super Saiyan forms, Great Ape form, the tail, and the users inner potential unleashed while using the form. Super Saiyan 4 is a natural amalgamation of everything a Saiyan is. Literally the Ultimate mortal Saiyans form, which itself has ways to be advanced further.

Look, I have no beef against the concept, I just think it could have been done better. Black hair looks too mundane and magenta fur is kind of an asspull color. Keep in mind they made the hair black specifically so it would go better with the magenta fur. But if they had made the fur golden in the first place, there wouldn't have been a problem like this. All in all, I think I like Toriyama's color scheme better, even though the hair doesn't differentiate itself from the fur, maybe it's not such a bad thing that it doesn't.

[QuakingStar]

They really just took SS3, Potential Unleashed and Great Ape and mashed it into one thing, but that's fine because it makes sense. Super Saiyan forms, Great Ape form, the tail, and the users inner potential unleashed while using the form. Super Saiyan 4 is a natural amalgamation of everything a Saiyan is. Literally the Ultimate mortal Saiyans form, which itself has ways to be advanced further.

Look, I have no beef against the concept, I just think it could have been done better. Black hair looks too mundane and magenta fur is kind of an asspull color. Keep in mind they made the hair black specifically so it would go better with the magenta fur. But if they had made the fur golden in the first place, there wouldn't have been a problem like this. All in all, I think I like Toriyama's color scheme better, even though the hair doesn't differentiate itself from the fur, maybe it's not such a bad thing that it doesn't.

I like both. Also, there is a color difference between the fur and the hair for Daima. You can see it in all official art, and even in the episodes on up close shots.