Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Vegeta also having SS3 does not mean Vegeta = Goku. In fact before he freaks out vs Beerus the only time he is equal to Goku is when he is SS2 Majin Vegeta vs SS2 Goku. Goku likely surpasses him in the same forms again.

[LightBing]

What do you guys think about Vegeta weakening while Goku didn’t as much, to the point of even being able to transform into SSJ3? Vegeta ended up on the ground, unable to fight. Does this mean that Goku is ultimately stronger than Vegeta?

I wouldn't draw any conclusions when Vegeta was blatantly sidelined for likely a latter plot. He's certainly not weaker than Piccolo and Glorio, both of them performed better than him.
The powerscalling is just bad.

Still, the team up of SSJ3 Goku, Doo and Tamagami 1, felt like it was in the story to illustrate the three strongest.

[JulieYBM]

They needed Vegeta to be out of action to focus on Gokuu so that he could achieve Super Saiyan 4. They'll probably focus on Vegeta in Episode #19.

They should've done a better job of displaying Vegeta taking the most damage, though. Hasve him get hit in the solar plexus or something lol

[FinalForumPodcast]

...meh.

He turned red and then nothing happened. I dunno. This is maybe the least underwhelming first-time-form transformation in Dragon Ball's history...except that it's technically not the first time we've seen SSJ4, except that GT is not (?) in continuity with this, except that you need to know GT in order to care about this moment, except that....sigh....

This episode specifically crashing Crunchyroll's servers is a bit of a yikes, too. Moneygrubbing corporations almost never learn the right lesson from anything and expecting to get anything other than a flood of "Here. Here's some nostalgia. Clap at it." in the future when that's the only thing that made this show make a ripple feels like a fool's errand.

I liked the show better when it was just silly adventure, not placating nostalgia wankery.

[Noah]

Pretty sure I'm not the only one who thought there should've been more reactions from the others about Goku's new form, especially this one in the pic below, and him showing some dissatisfaction like when he achieved SSJG to fight Beerus

[kemuri07]

But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

Ding ding ding. This right here is the key problem with a LOT of modern DB discourse. Too many people treat storytelling as if it's an equation that can just be "solved". As long as something "makes sense" and isn't literally an objective plot hole, everything is fine. And therefor, if you criticize it, you're either objectively wrong or you just "don't understand it". It's all science, no art. If X, then Y, then Z. Nothing in between. No actual contextual analysis of whether or not something is narratively satisfying, or thematically fitting, or is properly built-up, or literally anything beyond surface level, rigid logic. If you can headcanon your way to reverse engineer something to "make sense", then you've "solved" the story and you move on, like it's some sort of algebra problem.

That is, ironically, what a lot of critique feels like at times too. Like storytelling is a one-size-fits-all affair, with a complete set of strict rules that every single one needs to follow, else it is poorly written. They need to make sure they "show don't tell", and "fire all of Chekov's Guns", and "follow the Hero's Journey", and whatever other concepts the person making the critique read about on TV Tropes and/or learned about in their Intro to English Lit class. That's not even to say these aren't helpful devices and concepts for analyzing and critiquing a story, but it often feels like they're treated as prescriptive rules that storytellers must follow in order for the work to be Good™, rather than common trends that many storytellers have followed. It comes across like a substitute for analysis and critique all too often.

This is a perfect post and I demand it be put on a t-shirt.

It really perfectly explains my frustration with a lot of the discourse for this show.

Is Daima perfect. Fuck no. And I absolutely agree that Daima biggest issue is that it feels like Toriyama and Co had a neat scenario that wasn’t detailed enough to make it work for a 20 episode anime (which is simultaneously too many episodes for what this show is while also not enough to creat the level of depth required in a show like this)

But I’ve also been willing to meet Daima in the middle and because of this found enough fun with every episode. I’ve managed my expectations and have chosen to crtitique Daima on what it is rather than what it isn’t. Daima is a lark, and not the super serious next chapter of DB that people keep expecting this to be.