Do you consider Uranai Baba's Tournament part of the Red Ribbon Army arc?

[Zephyr]

Yeah, I don't think having a seamless connection between two chunks of story makes them the same arc, but rather if there is a singular quest that is not complete within the first one. Surviving the Saiyan invasion, and reviving the casualties of the Saiyan invasion, are not the same quest.

There's a stronger case for combining the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs, but I still treat them as separate; is that because Piccolo Daimao and Ma Junior are different people (while still being the same person), and each arc focuses on defeating a different one? Is it because the tournament arc still is also a quest to win the tournament, in Goku's eyes? Is it because the quest in the Daimao arc is, in part, to revive Kuririn, and that is done before the timeskip? Probably yeah to all of these. "But Zephyr", I hear you say, "the first quest is, in part, to defeat the Red Ribbon Army, and the quest is, in part, to win the tournament." And yeah, that's true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's also the Namek arc's quest being completed (reviving the casualties of the Saiyan invasion) and Mecha Freeza's first appearance sharing a chapter. So is the Mecha Freeza stuff more Namek arc? Is it more "Freeza arc", and doesn't end until his dad is blasted in the chest? Messy work.

As for the point about climaxes, well, all kinds of things have climaxes. Muscle Tower has a climax, but I'd hardly say a new arc starts after it has concluded. The fight with Raditz has a climax, but I'd hardly say there is a "Raditz arc" and a "Nappa & Vegeta arc".

[JulieYBM]

The older I get, the more I feel like the Twenty-Third Tenka-ichi Budou-kai is kind of a weird arc. Toriyama's arc is beyond gorgeous in it, but the story itself just feels so...disjointed and plain? It reminds me a lot of the Uranai Baba stuff in relation to the Red Ribbon Army arc, though, in that it's kind of a follow-up and is pretty much led right in, but because Gokuu and friends have changed so much, it's technically a 'separate arc'.

[Zephyr]

For me it helps that Goku has also changed as a person, not just in terms of appearance.

[BernardoCairo]

There's also the Namek arc's quest being completed (reviving the casualties of the Saiyan invasion) and Mecha Freeza's first appearance sharing a chapter. So is the Mecha Freeza stuff more Namek arc? Is it more "Freeza arc", and doesn't end until his dad is blasted in the chest? Messy work.

In this case, I don't think it's appropriate to classify the fight with Mecha Freeza as part of the Namek Arc, since his role is primarily to build tension for the upcoming threat and introduce Trunks' character. It becomes quite clear to the reader that a new story has begun as soon as Trunks appears and slices Freeza in two. But I get your point.

As for the point about climaxes, well, all kinds of things have climaxes. Muscle Tower has a climax, but I'd hardly say a new arc starts after it has concluded. The fight with Raditz has a climax, but I'd hardly say there is a "Raditz arc" and a "Nappa & Vegeta arc".

I agree, but calling it the "Four Star Ball Arc" doesn’t sit well with me for a few reasons. While the Four Star Ball is Goku's main motivation, it isn’t the primary focus of the story. For 90% of the arc, the spotlight is on the Red Ribbon Army and their "war" with Goku. They’re the central force that ties the arc together. I personally don’t feel right omitting them from the title just because the last 10% focuses on Uranai Baba's Tournament, even though that part is undeniably important.

The older I get, the more I feel like the Twenty-Third Tenka-ichi Budou-kai is kind of a weird arc. Toriyama's arc is beyond gorgeous in it, but the story itself just feels so...disjointed and plain?

Really? I consider that one of his best arcs. The matchups are perfect for each character, right up to the tournament finals. It's one of the rare arcs that effectively tells its story through the fights.
I see it as its own arc personally. While it's undeniably tied to the previous story, most of the elements that shape it were introduced after Piccolo Daimaoh was defeated: Kami-Sama, the origins of the Dragon Balls and their connection to Piccolo, the Lookout, Goku's training and growth, Chichi returning, and so on. It tells its own story, whereas Uranai Baba's Tournament simply wraps up another.

[JulieYBM]

Really? I consider that one of his best arcs. The matchups are perfect for each character, right up to the tournament finals. It's one of the rare arcs that effectively tells its story through the fights.
I see it as its own arc personally. While it's undeniably tied to the previous story, most of the elements that shape it were introduced after Piccolo Daimaoh was defeated: Kami-Sama, the origins of the Dragon Balls and their connection to Piccolo, the Lookout, Goku's training and growth, Chichi returning, and so on. It tells its own story, whereas Uranai Baba's Tournament simply wraps up another.

I think the time-skip hurt its momentum. It's so oddly situated between two big, status quo-altering time-skips, too. It's hard to get a feel for Gokuu, because it feels like Toriyama is still trying to re-discover who the character is now, while Chi-Chi is just there to serve a function as someone for Gokuu to eventually knock up.

Those chapters are incredibly well-drawn, but the story itself just feels...off.

[MasenkoHA]

The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is great because it's the closest the series gets to a proper endgame that's been set up from pretty much the beginning. In order for Goku to finally become the strongest under the heavens he has to defeat the reincarnation of his most powerful opponent, the dark side of God no less. Obviously Toriyama didn't have it as a planned ending and was just writing by the seat of his pants and was going to continue to write as long as the series was commercially viable and he still had ideas. But it makes for a great ending

Some might find it a bit silly the fate of the world is being decided on by a martial arts tournament but Piccolo is (technically) the same dude that used his Ma kanji as a calling card when his assassins killed his victims and announced his coup on global television so he absolutely would be extra about his revenge scheme and decide the best way for "Daimao to avenge Daimao" is fighting his killer on his own turf.

[ABED]

In the 23rd TB they're all the same characters just a little older. They fall right back into their old rhythms not long after they're together again. After 2 fairly serious arcs back to back, it was nice to have a reset and time skip. It feels kinda like coming home from college.

The Uranai Baba story feels like a fun buffer between the Red Ribbon Army and the 22nd TB. It's it's own thing but helps tie up loose ends.

[BernardoCairo]

I think the time-skip hurt its momentum.

I think the opposite. The timeskip was crucial for making Goku's growth both as a martial artist and as a person feel believable. The three-year gap allowed him to mature in a way that really worked. He's far more confident and grounded, and his evolution feels like a fitting conclusion to his journey. After six years, Goku has finally reached the pinnacle, becoming the strongest in the heavens (thanks to his training with God).
What I also love is that this arc gives us a rare glimpse of young adult Goku. He's not yet a married man with kids, but he's no longer the carefree child either. It's a fascinating, more mature version of him we don't see often. It adds a unique dimension to his character during this arc in my opinion.
Also, Goku and Chi-Chi's reunion was hilarious. I know Toriyama didn’t plan it from the start, but it really feels like he had been setting it up all along. It almost feels like a joke he’s been cooking since the very first arc, and the way it pays off here is just perfect

In the 23rd TB they're all the same characters just a little older. They fall right back into their old rhythms not long after they're together again. After 2 fairly serious arcs back to back, it was nice to have a reset and time skip. It feels kinda like coming home from college.

The Uranai Baba story feels like a fun buffer between the Red Ribbon Army and the 22nd TB. It's it's own thing but helps tie up loose ends.

Perfect. I agree with this.

[JulieYBM]

I think the time-skip hurt its momentum.

I think the opposite. The timeskip was crucial for making Goku's growth both as a martial artist and as a person feel believable. The three-year gap allowed him to mature in a way that really worked. He's far more confident and grounded, and his evolution feels like a fitting conclusion to his journey. After six years, Goku has finally reached the pinnacle, becoming the strongest in the heavens (thanks to his training with God).
What I also love is that this arc gives us a rare glimpse of young adult Goku. He's not yet a married man with kids, but he's no longer the carefree child either. It's a fascinating, more mature version of him we don't see often. It adds a unique dimension to his character during this arc in my opinion.
Also, Goku and Chi-Chi's reunion was hilarious. I know Toriyama didn’t plan it from the start, but it really feels like he had been setting it up all along. It almost feels like a joke he’s been cooking since the very first arc, and the way it pays off here is just perfect

Gokuu's development isn't set up, though. It just happens, because Toriyama needs it to happen and the three year gap is there to facilitate that. This clashes with how the arc is supposed to be a continuation to the previous arc, which itself pretty much already had a solid conclusion. Now we're just undermining the climax of the previous arc to do Piccolo, Again, which would work if Piccolo himself had an arc of change, but within the Twenty-Third Tenka-ichi Budoukai he doesn't have one. He has funny little facial expressions and some cool-looking fights and that's about it. The possible looks into his past have next to no effect on his character throughout the story arc itself.

Gokuu and Chi-Chi's reunion is cheap and hollow because their relationship isn't expanded upon at all. It's a gag, followed up by the gag of Chi-Chi easily losing the fight and then spending the rest of the arc as Gokuu's cheerleader. Like, damn, I'd die for a himbo boyfriend like any other woman attracted to men, but that doesn't make Chi-Chi a well-rounded character with thoughts and feelings free of whatever Gokuu is doing. As a woman, it's kinda just dissappointing and annoying sitting through those scenes, because the timeskip was a perfect opportunity to reintroduce Chi-Chi as something more than just a weak woman who needs to faun over her man.

[Zephyr]

I agree, but calling it the "Four Star Ball Arc" doesn’t sit well with me for a few reasons. While the Four Star Ball is Goku's main motivation, it isn’t the primary focus of the story. For 90% of the arc, the spotlight is on the Red Ribbon Army and their "war" with Goku. They’re the central force that ties the arc together. I personally don’t feel right omitting them from the title just because the last 10% focuses on Uranai Baba's Tournament, even though that part is undeniably important.

Well now you got me curious, so I crunched a bunch of numbers for fun.

The combined quest is 58 chapters long, with the Uranai Baba portion clocking in 15 of those chapters. 15 appears to be 25.8% of 58, meaning the Uranai Baba stuff comprises just over a quarter of the quest.

That said, even if it was a mere 10%, we'd have to agree to disagree. I could concede that the Four Star Ball is not itself prominent enough to be the arc's namesake, but I don't think the Red Ribbon Army is necessarily prominent enough either (for reasons that will hopefully be made clear below). Instead I'd be falling back on "it's one Dragon Ball hunt, though" and refer to the arc as "the Second Hunt for the Dragon Balls", or something.

---

Now, what if we tried to be more consistent in our treatment of the relationships between arc divisions and Dragon Ball quests? This is just a thought exercise, another thing I'm doing for the fun of it, but I personally found it fruitful and illuminating.

The very first arc in the series is called many things, but one of the popular ones is the "Pilaf arc". That story arc is 23 chapters long, and Pilaf doesn't actually appear until Chapter 18. Those last 6 chapters that feature him make for 26% of the chapter count, which is also just about a quarter. Imagine if we called the entire 2nd DB quest the "Uranai Baba arc", the way many refer to that entire 1st DB quest as the "Pilaf arc".

Alternatively, we could treat the 1st DB quest the way we do the 2nd, and regard the first 3/4 of it as one story arc, and regarded that last 1/4 where Pilaf is a part of the quest as the "Pilaf arc". Of course it's not exactly the same, as there is a climax at the 3/4 mark of the 2nd DB quest that isn't really there in the 1st (unless we count Yamcha joining forces with them as a climactic turning point?).

Then there's the 3rd Dragon Ball hunt on Namek*. I'm imagining a scenario where Freeza is defeated and removed from the story (either by leaving the planet or dying), but only 3/4 of the way through the DB quest. For that last quarter, let's say Goku and company must earn the final Namekian Dragon Ball by winning a martial arts tournament.

Imagine if we still called the entire quest, including the tournament, the "Freeza arc": that's what it's like to refer to the entire 2nd DB quest as the "Red Ribbon Army" arc, despite them leaving the story 3/4 of the way through. Or imagine if we called the entire 3rd DB quest the "Namekian Budokai arc": that's what it's like to refer to the 1st DB quest as the "Pilaf arc", despite him only entering the story 3/4 of the way through. Or, finally, imagine if we called the first 3/4 of the 3rd DB quest the "Freeza arc", and the remaining 1/4 the "Namekian Budokai arc": that's what it's like to treat the Red Ribbon Army and Uranai Baba chunks of the 2nd DB quest as distinct arcs, despite them being parts of the same DB quest.

There are many options on the table, but this exercise has convinced me that neither "Pilaf arc" nor "Red Ribbon Army arc" are what I prefer calling either of those arcs. I still do and will continue to refer to them by those names sometimes, as they're effective shorthands that everyone automatically understands. But if I was in a position to give definitive official names for them, I know what I wouldn't go with.

---

Arc Name Power Rankings, I Guess?:
1. Four Star Ball arc
2. Son Gohan arc
3. 2nd Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc
4. Red Ribbon Army arc & Uranai Baba arc (ie: treating them as two arcs with two names)
5. Red Ribbon Army arc
6. Uranai Baba arc (ie: what many do with the "Pilaf arc")

---

*: I know Namek isn't the very 3rd DB quest

[BernardoCairo]

Gokuu's development isn't set up, though. It just happens, because Toriyama needs it to happen and the three year gap is there to facilitate that. This clashes with how the arc is supposed to be a continuation to the previous arc, which itself pretty much already had a solid conclusion. Now we're just undermining the climax of the previous arc to do Piccolo, Again, which would work if Piccolo himself had an arc of change, but within the Twenty-Third Tenka-ichi Budoukai he doesn't have one.

Honestly, I think Goku’s development is set up really well. His training with Kami-Sama and Mr. Popo is key to his growth, as he learns to rely more on his instincts, making him a more balanced and confident fighter. This evolution is evident throughout the arc.
As for Piccolo, I don’t see him as just a repeat of his predecessor. While Piccolo Jr. is a reincarnation, he’s very much his own person. That’s part of why Goku chose to spare him. He may talk about world domination and revenge, but at his core, what he truly desires is to surpass Goku. Though he trapped Kami-Sama and committed other evil acts, his real goal was to prove himself as the strongest. Piccolo Daimaoh, on the other hand, had no interest in that. He simply wanted to destroy and kill.
I get what you're saying about Chi-Chi, but I was mainly referring to the marriage gag itself. It’s one of the rare times in Dragon Ball where a joke set up that early pays off much later. My point is that even in the "weaker fights", the matchups were perfect. Every character complemented their opponent and helped move the story forward.

(for reasons that will hopefully be made clear below)...

That was a great read. I concede to your points, but there are still a couple of things I’d like to highlight.
I agree that "Pilaf Arc" is a terrible name since it doesn’t really reflect the story itself. This likely comes from people trying to apply the Dragon Ball Z-style villain-centric arc naming to early Dragon Ball, or maybe it has something to do with Toei’s anime adaptation. Either way, you’re right. The first arc is more about the Dragon Balls and Goku’s journey than any major antagonist. But in contrast, isn’t the third arc the complete opposite? Goku still travels to different places and meets new people, much like in the first arc, but this time, everything is held together by the Red Ribbon Army. While the commanders change, the army itself is the central thread rather than the adventure.
You also brought up the 25.8% statistic, which was really interesting, and I commend you for going that far. When I said 10%, it was more of a hyperbole, but regardless, a quarter of the story is still significant. That said, I think it’s difficult to compare this situation to your "what if Freeza scenario." I’ve seen people refer to that part of the story as the "Namek Arc", and I actually like that term too. However, it’s impossible to separate Freeza from the climax. There’s no way to imagine something coming after him, especially since, by that point, the Dragon Balls were no longer the main focus of the story, even if they were the initial driving force. That makes it very different from the Red Ribbon Army material, where we all came to the conclusion that the story didn’t end with their defeat. I guess the early arcs of Dragon Ball were just naturally less tied to their antagonists.

[Koitsukai]

Gokuu's development isn't set up, though. It just happens, because Toriyama needs it to happen and the three year gap is there to facilitate that.

I disagree. Goku has been undergoing "domestication" ever since meeting up with Bulma. Slowly he started to learn new things about the world and to behave properly or close enough, he remains the wide-eyed, adventurous boy but he is no longer the same feral child living in the woods. It's basic development, sure, because he was a 0 and now he is a 1 or a 2, but is still progress. And then he goes meet up with God for 3 years.
It's probably not something that was planned, but it works anyway because it's the logical next step, you know in a world where meeting God to improve oneself is possible. It's also logical to go from a dumb 15 year old to a more mature, less-dumb 19 year old. That sure happened to me.

[MasenkoHA]

The greatest showcasing of Goku's growth is being astute enough to figure Old Kaioshin would fold for ass and tiddies when a younger Goku was hopelessly
confused at why Roshi wanted a Pichi Pichi gal so bad.

[JulieYBM]

The greatest showcasing of Goku's growth is being astute enough to figure Old Kaioshin would fold for ass and tiddies when a younger Goku was hopelessly
confused at why Roshi wanted a Pichi Pichi gal so bad.

I sometimes forget about the time that Gokuu outright claims that Chi-Chi doesn't have tits and he needs to shell out Blooma instead. What the hell, Toriyama?

[Zephyr]

That was a great read.

Thank you!

I agree that "Pilaf Arc" is a terrible name since it doesn’t really reflect the story itself. This likely comes from people trying to apply the Dragon Ball Z-style villain-centric arc naming to early Dragon Ball, or maybe it has something to do with Toei’s anime adaptation.

I guess the early arcs of Dragon Ball were just naturally less tied to their antagonists.

Yeah, I think both of these points are correct.

As for Namek/Freeza, I definitely lean more towards calling it the "Namek arc" these days over the "Freeza arc". Though, I think there's much less room for controversy there, with either being pretty much equally fine, because both plots are so tied together from start to finish.

Freeza appears at the end of the same chapter where Bulma and the others first land on Namek. The entire battle with him takes place on the planet. And although the Dragon Balls themselves take an unavoidable backseat once the Grand Elder dies, they prove very important again once he's brought back to life during the climax (with Dende and Freeza racing to use the last wish). The arc, of course, doesn't truly end until they are used to finally restore to life everyone else who had been killed in the Saiyan arc.

---

More silly numbers I crunched because why not:
- The arc itself: 88 chapters long
- From Kuririn mentioning the Namekian Dragon Balls for the first time on Earth, to the Grand Elder dying: 53 chapters long (60.2% of the arc)
- Freeza vs. Everyone (where Kaio's plan to use Namek's Dragon Balls is not a part of the story): 29 chapters (33% of the arc)
- Freeza vs. Everyone (where Kaio's plan to use Namek's Dragon Balls is a part of the story): 4 chapters (4.5% of the arc)
- Post-Freeza-fight: 2 chapters (2.3% of the arc)

So, basically, the Dragon Balls are a non-factor for only about 1/3 of the story arc. And it's not merely the last third, since they are important both during and after the fight against Freeza himself. Of course, the arc only goes on for two chapters after Freeza is "killed". So I'll concede that Freeza is prominent for more of the arc than the Namekian Dragon Balls are. But there is never a chapter where at least the planet, its people, or their Dragon Balls aren't a necessary part of the story.

So I really could go either way on what I call the arc. But I do lean more towards Namek these days. Not necessarily because it's got a 2 chapter lead on Freeza, but it does make me feel 2.3% more justified about that preference I guess.

[WittyUsername]

I see no reason not to consider the stuff with Baba as part of the same arc as the RRA. Goku’s main objective from the start of the RRA arc is finding his grandfather’s old keepsake, and that doesn’t get resolved until after the Baba tournament. Even though it’s called the “Red Ribbon Army arc” the titular organization is more or less an obstacle to Goku’s quest.

[Koitsukai]

I lean more towards calling it the Namek arc for two reasons:
1) the arc starts with them wanting to go to Namek, unaware there is a Freeza person out there. Freeza is the obstacle, if he were to die of diabetes on his way to Saichoro's, the arc would still not be resolved. Their purpose is to the get the DBs, not to defeat Freeza.
2) Well, I forgot. So I guess it's just one. Oh right, yes, Freeza is the overarching villain, but it's odd to call it the Freeza arc when they spent a good amount of time fighting the G-Force.

But calling it the Freeza arc is perfectly fine with me, he is the big bad and cause of the arc not being a simple veni, vidi, wishi.

[ABED]

I still call the first arc the Pilaf arc. My main way into the story was the anime and I think it's superior to the manga. I like Pilaf and thought it was a great idea to integrate him into the arc as a whole. I get why others disagree, but "the hunt for the DB's arc" or even "the Son Goku" arc don't work for me bc in both cases those aren't particular to those stories. Goku is the main character and they are constantly searching for the Dragon Balls.

The Fortuneteller Baba arc isn't technically part of the Red Ribbon Army arc because the Army is destroyed and she has no connection to it.

[MasenkoHA]

I still call the first arc the Pilaf arc. My main way into the story was the anime and I think it's superior to the manga. I like Pilaf and thought it was a great idea to integrate him into the arc as a whole. I get why others disagree, but "the hunt for the DB's arc" or even "the Son Goku" arc don't work for me bc in both cases those aren't particular to those stories. Goku is the main character and they are constantly searching for the Dragon Balls.

The Fortuneteller Baba arc isn't technically part of the Red Ribbon Army arc because the Army is destroyed and she has no connection to it.

Ehh I just call it the Shen Long arc. The First Hunt for Dragon Balls is too wordy and like you said Son Goku arc is kinda weird to call it when he's the main for 90 percent of the series.

I could never get with calling it the Pilaf arc not just because he only appears in the arc's endgame in the manga but because he's such a non threat in the anime I cant put him on the same playing field as Piccolo, The Saiyans, Freeza, Cell, and Boo

[Zephyr]

I still call it the "Pilaf arc" for conversational convenience, but internally I've taken to referring to it as the "Journey to the West arc", since it's the part that's a Journey to the West parody. And I'm pretty sure they are going westward, at least at first.