Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Sora Saiyan]

Gomah’s initial struggles could just be him underestimating Vegeta. If his Third-Eye adapts him to his opponent, it makes sense that he wouldn’t instantly adjust to Vegeta’s power jumps. He probably assumed Vegeta wasn’t that much stronger and miscalculated. But once he recovered from SS3 Vegeta’s Final Flash, he moved so fast that Vegeta couldn’t react. That wouldn’t happen if Base Vegeta were anywhere close to SS4 Kid Goku. It just reinforces the idea that Gomah’s power isn’t static, it fluctuates depending on who he’s fighting and how much effort he’s putting in.

That could be, but that isn't what's shown. Infact he's actively getting hurt by Vegeta, and the crew decided not to act together anymore now they're back to normal, even though they still have the fatigue they accumulated as kids, as stated by Piccolo.

Instead of looking at it from Gomah's perspective, you could look at it from Vegetas, who knew what Gomah is capable of (and SSJ4 Goku) and decides to fight in base for the majority of the fight, which is proven to be a fine idea as they are fighting on even ground. His durability is far too high for Base Vegeta to make any noticeable dent though, and we see even SSJ3 cant overcome the Tertian oculus' durability.
Also, this entire fight is against giant Gomah, who is clearly stronger than the Gomah who fought SSJ4 Mini Goku, well up until he turns into the giant form and dog walks him.

Btw, Gomah had another power up before he appeared behind Vegeta, and this was against a Vegeta who was massively fatigued, and even after that Vegeta has the upper hand until SSJ3 was unsustainable. After that he was on the back foot in base. For that reason the Tertian oculus' may be hitting it's limit in regards to notable power increases as it didn't put Gomah on level with a 'relatively' fresh SSJ3 Vegeta, but instead one who was on the cusp of being incapable of sustaining the form (he was panting with every move after the final flash). The next episode will decide that for sure.

[Yuji]

I think they're about half as strong.

Mini Goku: 1
-- SS: 50
-- SS2: 100
-- SS3: 400
-- SS4: 800

Goku: 2
-- SS: 100
-- SS2: 200
-- SS3: 800
-- SS4: 1600

Tamagami 3: 50
Tamagami 2: 100
Tamagami 1: 150

Dabra: 40
-- Post Babidi: 150

Majin Doo: 200
-- Cookie: 400

Fat Boo: 600
-- Mr. Boo: 200
-- Evil Boo: 400

Kid Boo: 850

Gomah: 800

Something like that.

[ZombieVito]

I think they're about half as strong.

Mini Goku: 1
-- SS: 50
-- SS2: 100
-- SS3: 400
-- SS4: 800

Goku: 2
-- SS: 100
-- SS2: 200
-- SS3: 800
-- SS4: 1600

Tamagami 3: 50
Tamagami 2: 100
Tamagami 1: 150

Dabra: 40
-- Post Babidi: 150

Majin Doo: 200
-- Cookie: 400

Fat Boo: 600
-- Mr. Boo: 200
-- Evil Boo: 400

Kid Boo: 850

Gomah: 800

Something like that.

What about Shin and Piccolo?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure yet because Gomah's power is very confusing, he keeps getting stronger. I'd say Dabra was always in Perfect Cell's level, though (As in, stronger than Super Vegeta). Babidi's power up is pretty lame.

[Yuji]

I think they're about half as strong.

Mini Goku: 1
-- SS: 50
-- SS2: 100
-- SS3: 400
-- SS4: 800

Goku: 2
-- SS: 100
-- SS2: 200
-- SS3: 800
-- SS4: 1600

Tamagami 3: 50
Tamagami 2: 100
Tamagami 1: 150

Dabra: 40
-- Post Babidi: 150

Majin Doo: 200
-- Cookie: 400

Fat Boo: 600
-- Mr. Boo: 200
-- Evil Boo: 400

Kid Boo: 850

Gomah: 800

Something like that.

What about Shin and Piccolo?

I've come to believe Piccolo is stronger than Shin seeing how he knocked Degesu out in one hit and those Wafer stickers have him and Shin at the same BP. So Piccolo would be the same level he's always been, which is a bit weaker than a Super Saiyan. He'd probably be 50 on this list.

I have no idea what to do with Shin.

[Xeogran]

as even after recovering and adapting(?)against SSJ3 Vegeta, he still isn't much stronger than base Vegeta.

It's hilarious how Base Vegeta somehow had a better display than SSJ3 Vegeta in this episode

[ZombieVito]

as even after recovering and adapting(?)against SSJ3 Vegeta, he still isn't much stronger than base Vegeta.

It's hilarious how Base Vegeta somehow had a better display than SSJ3 Vegeta in this episode

But it didn't?

[Xeogran]

as even after recovering and adapting(?)against SSJ3 Vegeta, he still isn't much stronger than base Vegeta.

It's hilarious how Base Vegeta somehow had a better display than SSJ3 Vegeta in this episode

But it didn't?

He continued fighting Gomah even after his powerups and wasn't defeated in base, while his SS3 form got tired and ran out of power.

[Haighter]

I think they're about half as strong.

Mini Goku: 1
-- SS: 50
-- SS2: 100
-- SS3: 400
-- SS4: 800

Goku: 2
-- SS: 100
-- SS2: 200
-- SS3: 800
-- SS4: 1600

Tamagami 3: 50
Tamagami 2: 100
Tamagami 1: 150

Dabra: 40
-- Post Babidi: 150

Majin Doo: 200
-- Cookie: 400

Fat Boo: 600
-- Mr. Boo: 200
-- Evil Boo: 400

Kid Boo: 850

Gomah: 800

Something like that.

Their strength being halved as kids would make for the least headache when looking backward at the rest of Daima and even the Boo Saga, but I just have a hard time explaining the shock that was expressed at how strong base Vegeta is as an adult. Everyone present had seen Goku's battle with Gomah using Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan 4, and a Gomah that had beaten Super Saiyan 4 Mini Goku was trading blows with base Vegeta.

It really does feel like the intent is that Base Adult Vegeta is at least relative to Super Saiyan 4 Mini Goku. Unfortunately, this makes Glorio and Shin look like total jobbers and adds credence to the theory that Shin's statement that he could defeat Freeza in one blow was based on Freeza's most suppressed state. This is exacerbated even further by strictly enforcing the guidebook Super Saiyan multiplier. It's a bit messy, to say the least.

[The Monkey King]

Remember in DBS Broly when Base Goku did about as well against Broly as SSJG Vegeta?

No one said "Base Goku ~ SSJG Vegeta" because that wouldn't make any sense and wasn't the true intention.

I see Base Vegeta's performance against Gomah the same way, it's the classic Toei fetish for having base forms fight even when it makes zero sense.

[Haighter]

Remember in DBS Broly when Base Goku did about as well against Broly as SSJG Vegeta?

No one said "Base Goku ~ SSJG Vegeta" because that wouldn't make any sense and wasn't the true intention.

I see Base Vegeta's performance against Gomah the same way, it's the classic Toei fetish for having base forms fight even when it makes zero sense.

The key difference here, for me at least, is that no one in-universe was in absolute awe at how well Base Goku did against Broly, whereas here there are characters who were fully witness to SS4 Goku vs Gomah and are still shaken at just how strong Base Vegeta is. It's possible to interpret in such a way that he's not relative to Super Saiyan 4, but it's hard to say he's not intentionally being portrayed many, many times stronger as an adult than as a child. If you think that's stupid. that's fine (I'd agree it is), but this feels more like a deliberate element of the story than it was with Goku vs Broly.

[Koitsukai]

I totally see Toriyama at a meeting: "mmm yeah, so they get turned into kids and become half as strong... and the final baddie... yeah, something along the lines of Kid Buu, a notch above him, so we can introduce a new form".

Shin? there are two ways to reconcile him.
1) The kaioshin, usually weaker than other races, can take out easily somebody that scratches the most basic SS level using their magic, which we've seen already when Shin restrained SS2 Gohan.
2) Like the rest of the universe, he was unaware Freeza was more than meets the eye. This could be also in line with Shin, who is a dork. Doesn't even know what those earrings he wears are for.

[Vice]

It's almost as if they should stop doing base form fights unless the level requires it, because goddamn, this, that Broly stuff and the Hit stuff really, really irked me

[ZombieVito]

It's hilarious how Base Vegeta somehow had a better display than SSJ3 Vegeta in this episode

But it didn't?

He continued fighting Gomah even after his powerups and wasn't defeated in base, while his SS3 form got tired and ran out of power.

What power ups? Gomah isn't getting stronger after going giant.

[LightBing]

What a mess. Base Vegeta handles Gomah, then SSJ3 too and Base again still holds up.
With the show constantly shoving Base into everything, it makes it easy to discard.

Their performances as kids were so poorly represented.
On a surface analyze, my current theory is that they were a level behind.
So Goku went SSJ2 against Tamagami 3, as an adult SSJ would be enough. Vegeta went SSJ3, SSJ2 would again be enough.

For the final battle, their opponent was Gomah, apparently SSJ3 level, but as kids their SSJ3 was only SSJ2 as adults, therefore the tag team was necessary.
Now everyone decides individual fights are enough.

This would make sense with the defining power-scaling line of the show that Dabra couldn't defeat the Tamagamis.

[DBZ Macky]

I find it worth mentioning that Vegeta was continuing to fight Gomah in Base until Bulma called him back even after the latter possibly got much stronger with the Third Eye.
It didn't feel at all that Base Vegeta was 400x weaker than his Super Saiyan 3 form.

[RedHeat]

I do agree with the earlier sentiment that Base Adult Vegeta isn't stronger than SSJ4 Kid Goku (maybe something like half as strong?). The problem with scaling the Tertiary Oculus is that it doesn't seem to amp Gomah physically to a significant degree. Even after coming back from Vegeta's Final Flash after his vanishing trick, SSJ3 was still holding his own before running out of energy.

[Cybersai]

Gomah being weaker than Super Buu is certainly something. This might be the first time the next main villain is weaker than the one before it. That's never really happened before.

[Sora Saiyan]

as even after recovering and adapting(?)against SSJ3 Vegeta, he still isn't much stronger than base Vegeta.

It's hilarious how Base Vegeta somehow had a better display than SSJ3 Vegeta in this episode

It's ridiculous, but SSJ3 Vegeta was still definitely stronger, even his jabs were giving Gomah trouble, and that was when he was massively weaker after the final flash, before that Gomah was fodder compared to SSJ3.
The only way it makes sense is if you say when Vegeta reverted to base, it only occured because his SSJ3 power has fell back in line with his base form so he couldn't forcibly hang on to the form anymore. Similar to the Moro arc when they're having their energy drained, and drop to a different form upon the threshold being reached, but this time Vegeta managed to hang on to SSJ3 throughout. I really don't like it, but it's probably one of the only ways of making sense of it given the current events.

Gotta say, that Bobidis power up really did wonders for Dabura. We know it powers up people to their limits, but he was clearly so far from that in his regular form, and had a load of potential.. or something.

There could be the explanation that's been mentioned, that Goku and Vegeta have actually gotten a lot stronger since the Buu arc, and that statement at the start of the episodes calling Goku the strongest in the universe does truly mean he surpassed peak ultimate Gohan. Which means he has grown many times more powerful than in the Buu arc.
With Vegetas display against Gomah we can still slot Pure Buu in there with no issues, as even his SSJ form was clearly more powerful. This is also against Giant Gomah who has had many power ups. So this keeps Kid Buu as a menace to the demon realm, and he could do it as casually as the adults at SSJ, or SSJ2. So the Tertian oculus would need another big power up to press Buu as he's a hard counter.... Gotta say I'm expecting something like that, because even though this episode hasn't given Gomah the same dramatic increase he's received in the last episode, Daima is most definitely gonna force fusion between Goku and Vegeta, hell maybe even SSJ4 Vegeta, so something like that has got to happen. I hope I'm wrong, but these last few episodes feel like they're trying force in the best parts of GT into as small a timeframe as possible.

[DBZ Macky]

If not anything else, I'm at least more inclined to believe Gohan used regular SS against Dabura now.
I can't believe how much of a certified jobber Dabura was, sheesh.