Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

I'm hoping that that 'luminary' bit is sarcasm

One would think calling him Joseph and then talking about how capital degrades art would tip you off to that lol

The only Luminary I believe in resides in Mohgwyn Palace.

i couldn't tell srry

If you guys wanted to see these characters fighting butt-naked so much, just say it!

if freeza and cell can fight nakd so can gokuu and vegetables

(but no, seriously, I wish we got to see more battle damage in these fights, too. lemme see them boxers!!!)

[TKA]

What was Dragon Ball's motto again?
Something, something, there will always be someone stronger... Something like that...
If Super's continuity gets continued, Beerus and Zeno at some point will get replaced, it's an inevitability.

Good, you understand the motif Toriyama likes to use.

Now take that a step further.

The reason Beerus is consistently portrayed as stronger than them is so they can always be pursuing him. And if they never catch up, then you don’t need to keep creating newer more powerful threats.

He is a moving goalpost and an unobtainable ideal. That’s his role.

If down the line some writer comes in and introduces, I dunno, Brandi the god of everything, and say he’s stronger than Beerus, Whis and Zeno, well I’ll take that about as seriously as I take anything Disney has added since buying Star Wars.

Which is to say, I wouldn’t give a damn.

[FortuneSSJ]

Great episode.
As expected, Glorio asked for the main cast to become adults again. The word "chilldopp" in his wish kinda gave it away.

Good to see my boy Takahashi getting his flowers, after spending most of the time in Daima doing corrections. The animation is great. but it's his art that is on a level of its own. In modern Dragon Ball, only Kubota can compete with him.

It's a blessing to see Ryo Onishi popping so often and always delivering. Tells you everything you need to know about the pre-production this show had.
Nozawa screams during SSJ4 transformation were amazing. The echo gave me chills.

Unsurpassing SSJ4 Goku and SSJ3 Vegeta look better as adults.

[goku the krump dancer]

Daima Saiyan 4 is also in this boat. It's already a better design than the original SS4 and doesn't come with the logical inconsistencies, like magically growing yellow pants lol.

Personally I still prefer the original design, this version is alright, I think there’s an intensity in the eyes that’s severely lacking for me. That being said, for what it’s worth Goku somehow magically grew his shirt back when Gomah drained his energy inside that sphere lol but I guess Toei or whomever called themselves correcting that mistake by having Goku physically remove his shirt while transforming as an adult. So we’ll see where the consistency lies during this final episode.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don’t think SSJ3 Vegeta makes much sense, especially considering how soon Daima takes place after Buu. Goku had to train for seven years in the Other World after his death. Since time works differently there, and he wasn't limited by mortal constraints, this advantage was the key reason he was able to reach SSJ3. Vegeta, on the other hand, trained rigorously for those same seven years between the Cell and Buu Sagas, yet he never reached SSJ3.

Goku made it seem like there was a key to unlocking Ssj3, as Gotenks was easily able to achieve it, and Goku told Gohan he'd show him how to do it. Vegeta never trained efficiently, and always trained for the wrong reasons, both of which were key points in his realization that Goku was better than him. Once he opened his eyes to the truth of his situation, it made sense that he'd start making more gains in his training. Him and Goku were already equal in strength during the Buu arc, so pushing through that barrier isn't unrealistic.

Even if he were to achieve it, would he even want to? Vegeta has always been pragmatic in his transformations, choosing efficiency over raw power. He never pursued SSJ3 in Super, knowing its stamina drain made it an impractical form.

Neither GT nor Super ever explained why he didn't pursue Ssj3, not even with a single sentence. We can theorize why, but that's all that is, fan theories. Ssj3 was the strongest form at the time; it never made sense for him to not try it out for himself then decide whether or not to continue with it. Considering he was able to seemingly kill Gomah twice with it (before being revived with the eye), and take down one of the Tamagami effortlessly, I'd say he got good mileage out of it.

What I missed the most in Episode 19 was the lack of unpredictability when SSJ3 Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku suddenly reappeared as adults. Their transformations were highly telegraphed—once it was clear the wish would restore their adult forms, it was obvious these fan-favorite power-ups would return too.

Daima had two choices to make: Either not introduce any new forms for the characters, or introduce them and allow them to be used as adults as well. I think limiting these new forms to their kid versions would've been a mistake, especially with Goku.

Ultimately, Daima manages to deliver some great moments, but at times it leans too heavily on predictable fanservice without enough narrative weight to fully support it. While it does a good job of capturing the essence of Dragon Ball, certain choices feel more like a response to fan expectations rather than a natural progression of the story. It’s an enjoyable addition to the franchise, but one that could have benefited from a bit more originality and unpredictability.

I completely agree with this. Unlike Super and Daima that need a page 1 rewrite to fix their issues, I believe Daima needed a 2nd, more refined draft to iron everything out. At its core, Daima tells a story we've long waited to see, it just may have needed a 2nd pair of eyes to notice the cracks.

In a series where characters can destroy planets, universes, throw magic energy balls out of their hands, teleport, create orbs that grant magical wishes, and can create entire outfits out of their hands (Piccolo), somehow, transformations with magic clothes is where people draw the line? Seriously?

I've always found this issue people have with GT's Ssj4s a bit odd. Out of everything we've seen, this is what crossed the line for all you ?

What was Dragon Ball's motto again?
Something, something, there will always be someone stronger... Something like that...
If Super's continuity gets continued, Beerus and Zeno at some point will get replaced, it's an inevitability.

This is why Battle of Gods works as a conclusion to the story; it brings this theme form the first arc back into full focus. Despite Goku's SsjG, despite Vegeta's massive power boost, neither can do anything to him. Beerus being this unmovable goal post, while Goku and Vegeta keep getting stronger makes no sense. Either have him surpassed, or wrap up the story.

[AliTheZombie13]

[...]

I don't know why you feel like that would be such a betrayal of Beerus' character when Toriyama created Kami, then created Kaio, then created the Dai Kaio, then created the Kaioshin, then created Beerus and Whis, then created Zeno, and now we have Rymus, who can either be Daima's own Zeno, yet another god above Zeno, "The Creator to Zeno's Destroyer," or whatever fans speculate.

"The God above the God above the God above the God above the God" would be perfectly in line with what Toriyama's been doing since... forever. Personally, I stopped caring since Kaioshin, so it's not like it'll be a new writer's fault that seemingly impossible to beat characters get surpassed.

In fact, Beerus was already doing Roshi's "I think this guy might as well have already surpassed me" in the Tournament of Power. So... yeah. If Toriyama was still alive, Beerus was going to become cannon fodder at some point anyway.

[Yuji]

The difference being that those Gods were all surpassed either in the same arc or the subsequent one. Beerus has been a perpetual moving goalpost for - count 'em - ten arcs now. Sure, he would be surpassed eventually, but it was definitely Toriyama's intention to keep him up in a pedestal, and I wouldn't be surprised if, unlike the other Gods who were unceremoniously surpassed, he was actually planning a direct rematch between Goku and Beerus.

[TKA]

I don't know why you feel like that would be such a betrayal of Beerus' character

That's not at all what I said.

It would be missing the point of having Beerus around all this time and continually moving the goalpost that is his strength.

If a future writer comes along and has Goku and Vegeta surpass him, then that misses the point so thoroughly that I wouldn't feel a need to acknowledge or engage with the plot point. And, quite frankly, I don't trust anyone but Toriyama to write that.

Toriyama created Kami, then created Kaio, then created the Dai Kaio, then created the Kaioshin, then created Beerus and Whis, then created Zeno

Kami was not meant to be a goalpost for Goku. Evidenced by Goku surpassing him by the end of the arc where they first met.

Kaio was not meant to be a goalpost for Goku. Evidenced by Goku mastering a technique not even Kaio could.

Grand Kai doesn't exist in the manga, really.

Kaioshin was not meant to be a goalpost for Goku. Evidenced by all the saiyans being stronger than him when he was introduced.

Beerus was meant to be a goalpost for Goku. Evidenced by him handily defeating Goku in Battle of Gods and then for the remaining movies and Super always being significantly stronger no matter what new echelons of power the saiyans attain.

Zeno is expressly not a goalpost for anyone. He's not designed to be a fighter because he's so far beyond everyone else that you aren't even supposed to think about fighting him. That's the point.

You've, once again, successfully identified a motif, but you have to actually analyze the role the motif is supposed to play in the plot.

[Cursed Lemon]

Vegeta should've had a much cooler SSJ3 hairdo.

EDIT: Also, the talk in the prior thread about comparisons to Star Wars have gotten me increasingly giggly the more I think about it.

The original Star Wars trilogy is hailed as being an example of simple, effective writing, a very basic hero's journey. The prequels, by contrast, are looked at as a largely flawed endeavor but one that was at least successful in providing a coherent narrative in Anakin's turn to the dark side. Then the sequels come and are just...an unapologetic mess. sOmEhOw, PaLpAtiNe rEtuRnEd

And that is literally exactly how I feel about (most of) DBZ, DBS, and Daima.

[Yuji]

Re: Glorio

I think what irked me the most about his arc is that he only had one decently defined relationship in the whole show, with Panzy. What's his relationship with Goku like, besides fighting him once when his ego to too big? Where did Shin's suspicion of him go, and their class struggle? Did he even interact with the B team at all once they arrived?

I don't think anyone's saying his heel turn needed to be melodramatic saccharine nonsense. But grant him the same care in interacting with the others as they did for his relationship with Panzy.

Again, with Granolah, who I also agree is a flawed character, at least we know exactly how everyone stands. We know what he thinks of Goku, Vegeta, Oatmeel, Monaito, Gas, Bardock, and vice-versa. Ask Piccolo or Vegeta or even Goku what they think of Glorio, or vice-versa, and they'd struggle to come up with something to say.

[TKA]

Re: Glorio

I think what irked me the most about his arc is that he only had one decently defined relationship in the whole show, with Panzy. What's his relationship with Goku like,

As someone who has not interacted with fans about Daima until this episode, I think his relationships with Panzy and Goku are pretty clear.

He’s assuming the role of responsible parent. And it’s out of that role that he decided to have a fight with Goku to reaffirm his position. He lost and then acknowledged that even though Goku is an annoying goof, he knows his shit.

That’s where their relationship flipped. And it concluded here where he finally got Goku’s approval by him remembering his name.

Also, a heel turn is when a good character becomes a bad character. A face turn is the opposite, where the bad guy becomes a good guy. Glorio’s arc was him doing a slow burn face turn. Term originates from Pro Wrestling, and apologies if you already knew all this and I misinterpreted.

[Mr Baggins]

Adding to TKA's post, the implication that any character needs some in-depth relationship with every other protagonist for their arc to be compelling is a non sequitur. They need exactly as much or as little is required for their role and development.

Vegeta has one of the most compelling arcs of anyone in Dragon Ball. He got by just fine with the few dynamics afforded to him.

[Yuji]

Vegeta has one of the most compelling arcs of anyone in Dragon Ball. He got by just fine with the few dynamics he had.

Bulma, Goku, Trunks, Gohan, Kuririn, Freeza & all the villains, even Piccolo. That's a substantial number. I agree that asking for a dynamic between Vegeta and say, Oolong would have been out of place, but that's not the case here. It would have been just as odd if Vegeta had never interacted with Gohan at all. These are all main characters.

[Mr Baggins]

I agree that asking for a dynamic between Vegeta and say, Oolong would have been out of place, but that's not the case here. It would have been just as odd if Vegeta had never interacted with Gohan at all. These are all main characters.

You're markedly confusing interactions with detailed relationships, my guy. Glorio has also interacted with Hybis of all people and we know exactly what the latter thinks of him.

Character writing explores characters. Relationships are a tool to achieve that, but hardly the goal. The last thing any writer or reader/viewer should do is treat it like a checklist, and everyone in the group outside of maybe Vegeta, Bulma and Piccolo would have something distinct to say about him.

[The Monkey King]

Not the point.

What I said has everything to do with why Toriyama forgot SSJ2 but remembered 3, honestly you're just yapping.
Look at Neko Majin Z, all SSJ transformations have SSJ2 sparks, you can see in real time when Toriyama blended their designs and forgot what was supposed to make SSJ2 visually distinct.

And I drew that myself. (laughs) Anyhow, I thought “2” was the one with long hair. It was like, “Man, I’ve really forgotten stuff…”.

Toriyama remembered Goku's strongest form had long hair, that's it.

Ultimate Gohan was also another Buu saga red herring power up and it almost didn't make into BoG.
Everyone got whooped by Beerus, SSJ3 Goku getting one-shot isn't special.

Yes; obviously. This is a forum, so I don't feel a burning desire to preface every statement I make with "In my opinion..."

True, but with the way you post I struggle to give you that benefit of the doubt.

The form is ugly as it should be if you're going to be missing that Toriyama's design philosophy is always "less is more," as Toei did when they designed the original SS4.

Dude... I just think that Goku's eyes being yellow would be nice.

Toriyama giving Goku's new forms the same colour eyes and hair has been a pet peeve of mine since BoG.

As hideous as I find Beast's design at least the red eyes contrast well against Gohan's silver hair.

This is some fanboy nonsense if I've ever seen any. A magic wish made him an adult and put him back in his clothes that he then proceeded to take off again.

...I'm talking about this

Your arbitrary numbers mean nothing to me.

These are the numbers Toriyama decided to use to tell the story of Battle of Gods meaning that they're important to the narrative and do indeed mean something whether you like it or not.

The 70% line means Beerus was never introduced as this supremely powerful character that could never be surpassed and Toriyama never wrote him as such.

Beerus is meant to be an unobtainable ideal that Goku and Vegeta will strive to but never meet.

Then what business does he have in a series all about breaking limits?
Beerus isn't even an "ideal" that lazy cat hasn't even mastered UI.

Even the language Toriyama used to describe Goku and Vegeta's strength in comparison to Beerus doesn't support your claim, Toyotarou was the one to describe Beerus as an "unsurpassable wall":

Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

He doesn't describe Beerus as an unobtainable goal, in fact he makes it sound like he could be surpassed in a future arc.

He will never be surpassed.

As far was Toriyama was concerned Broly > Beerus >= SSJB Goku and Vegeta fighting as a team. Seen in the movie scripts he wrote personally.

Spoiler:

Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct is literally the show telling you that they will never reach him because they intrinsically cannot master these forms because of the decades of character development they've gone through.

The DBS manga had to trip over itself in order to retcon Beerus' strength... again

Spoiler:

Beerus ~ Belmod > Black Freeza > MUI Goku > Jiren > Belmod ~ Beerus

If this is the "narrative" then the way it's being told is embarrassingly contrived, amateurish, short sighted and plain old shit.

[Izanagi]

Toyotaro clearly does care about the contiuinity tho, probably too much in fact. And if canon was truly not a tjing as you suggest, they would not even be inteoducing all those things in the main continuity or whatever you want ro call it to begin with. What Daima is doing is not any different rhan reimagining Broly for Super or Bardock for Minus, the later which was done specifically by Toriyama. If he really didn't care about canon either, why did he do the later to begin with? If anything I would say he couldn't have given less of a shit about other DB media other than his own manga which he didn't remember well.

There is also nothing wrong the new forms or characters not being in EoZ when it's a random tournament where said characters have no reason to show up, and where no one evee transforms. Of all the things Super does retcon, those are not problems.

This implication makes no sense and really just sounds like you are reaching trying to prove the powers at play don't care about a main continuity, but they clearly do. Even the thinga we have gotten from others like Vomi are cameos at best. I don't see how something so simple is a "lost cause" jusg because there are plot holes. That isn't how it works and sounds more like a problem in your end, there are not mentions of things happening in other continuties in rhe Super manga alone. Funny you also mention One Piece, when the canocity of Strong World and Z were debated for a long time (and Red too in some cases) so the canon is not even that obvious in all the media. Hell, we have gotten content Oda wanted to have in the manga but couldn't fit in, aninated, as soon as Loguetown.

You say Toyotaro cares too much about continuity, but then you also admit that Dragon Ball has plot holes and inconsistencies. You can’t argue “he cares” while excusing the gaps. That’s like saying a chef “cares too much” about cooking but still serves raw chicken. But the bigger issue is, even if Toyotaro cares, the franchise as a whole doesn’t. The continuity is like a jigsaw puzzle someone pissed on and then forced together anyway. Super contradicts Z. Daima contradicts Super. Acting like one guy giving a damn about continuity doesn’t makes the entire timeline coherent.

Also, I never said there’s no attempt at canon. Just that the attempt is half-assed and inconsistent as fuck. They slap the “main continuity” label on whatever they want to market that year, then throw out anything that doesn’t fit when it’s convenient. Look no further than Minus. Roshi calls Goku an infant (in Japanese, he explicitly uses 赤ん坊/akanbo which translates to "baby/infant") and when Gohan finds him at one point, Minus makes Goku out to be 3 years old, which would be more of a toddler. That’s not “caring about canon.” That’s rewriting shit on a whim.

Saying Toriyama did Minus because he cares about canon is a flimsy excuse because Toriyama’s always winged this shit. The man literally forgot Super Saiyan 2 existed at one point and he even forgot about Goten when asked to draw him. He did Minus because he felt like it, not to maintain continuity. And the fact that EoZ shows a time skip and completely ignores Super’s events is a continuity issue. Saying, “Well, it was just a random tournament!” is copium when the original manga made it a point that the heroes were enjoying "10 long years of peace" between the events of Boo and EoZ. You can’t cram 10 years of god-tier events into the gap between Boo and EoZ and then expect people to pretend nothing major happened.

Also, One Piece has debates over what’s canon for movies, sure, but the manga itself is airtight. Uta exists in the canon, however the events of her movie (Film Red) are not canon. Comparing DB’s messy canon to One Piece’s occasional movie debates is apples to oranges.

Fans not caring about something being canon is expected. Liking something or not because of it being canon is stupid. That doesn't mean there is no canon trough. Those are two vastly different concepts.

You just reinforced my argument: Fans don’t care about canon, they care about what’s cool. That’s why SSJ4 (pre-Daima), Broly (pre-Super), and Bardock (Z version) remained iconic despite being “non-canon” at the time. The whole “but there’s still canon tho” argument completely misses the bigger picture: The franchise treats canon like a marketing tool, not a storytelling foundation.

[BernardoCairo]

Dragon Ball has plot holes and inconsistencies

Almost every fiction story has plot holes and inconsistencies. My issue with saying Toriyama never cared about 'canon' is that, while he improvised a lot, he still created a manga with a clear beginning, middle, and end. That’s the main story. Anything that came after, made by different people in vastly different periods, was never going to match 100%. But if you want to experience the core Dragon Ball story in its entirety, you’ve been able to do that since 1995.

If Toriyama was still alive, Beerus was going to become cannon fodder at some point anyway.

I highly doubt it. It’s clear to me that Goku and Vegeta will never surpass Beerus. Every time they get close, the bar will just be raised again. Maybe only when Dragon Ball Super ends for good.

[TKA]

What I said has everything to do with why Toriyama forgot SSJ2 but remembered 3, honestly you're just yapping.
Look at Neko Majin Z, all SSJ transformations have SSJ2 sparks, you can see in real time when Toriyama blended their designs and forgot what was supposed to make SSJ2 visually distinct.
Toriyama remembered Goku's strongest form had long hair, that's it.

Again, not the point.

The point is SS3 is associated with a role within the story. SS2 was Gohan's character arc being completed, which is probably why "Beast" is just SS2 Gohan with white hair and in an adult body.

Everyone got whooped by Beerus, SSJ3 Goku getting one-shot isn't special.

Then what business does he have in a series all about breaking limits?
Beerus isn't even an "ideal" that lazy cat hasn't even mastered UI.

....

I don't feel the need to respond further. Everything that needs to be said has been said and I don't have a strong desire to just restate the same thing over and over.

[LoganForkHands73]

I only see Glorio and Granolah as superficially similar in terms of personality and design. But their character arcs and roles in their respective stories are not very comparable, IMO.

Granolah was set up as a major POV protagonist. For all my misgivings about how that arc turned out and how it treated its titular star, Toyotaro did a fine job of setting up almost everything we needed to know about the guy in those prelude chapters. We learn who he is (the lone survivor of an extinct race wiped out by the Saiyans on Freeza's orders, now a hired gun living with an elderly Namekian on his ruined planet), his motivations (revenge against Freeza's forces, nudged along by the Heeta siblings' manipulations), his internal conflicts (the lingering trauma of his mother's death, his self-destructive urges, his conflicting desires avenge his kind while also respecting the Sugarians who've shacked up on his planet), and more. He has a certain aura of mystery, as any gunslinging bounty hunter should, but most of it is to do with events surrounding him, not his nature as a person.

There was little ambiguity about where his story would go. Of course he'll eventually make peace with the Saiyans and within himself. The path of how he gets there was still intriguingly told, at first. His story stumbles and falls when we get to the mid-point of the arc, and he almost ceases to be an active presence in the plot at all until the very end of the climax. At which point, it feels that much of his character development occurred off-panel, while he was knocked unconscious. It more or less becomes business as usual with Goku and Vegeta struggling against a Really Strong Bad Guy, though with overbearing focus given to their own baggage.

Glorio is initially a suspicious character with unclear goals. Even now as we near the end of the series, we still don't really know an awful lot about him. From his arrival at Kami's Temple, there are many glaring hints that he has ulterior motives, culminating in the reveal that he's taking orders from Dr. Arinsu. Nahare picks holes in his cover stories, but the true nature of his mission and his relationship to Arinsu are left ambiguous. The point is, he's employed by Arinsu, but despite himself, he's also growing fond of this ragtag bunch of kids he's secretly stringing along with the hopes of stealing their Dragon Balls.

Glorio's design somewhat parallels Han Solo, and I think this was intentional to convey the kind of role Glorio would serve. He's supposed to be the morally ambiguous lancer who must eventually prove his loyalties to his fellow protagonists. In Star Wars, Han's only loyalties were to numero uno (and Chewie), he was very vocally disinterested in helping the Rebellion and only stuck around for the promise of reward money. That's what makes his decision to come back in the Millennium Falcon and save Luke from Vader's TIE squadron in the climax while screaming "YEEHOOOO" impactful.

Glorio deciding to turn against Arinsu and wish for the gang to become adults again was supposed to be his "YEEHOOOO" moment. Whether it works or not is up to you, but personally, I don't think it hits nearly as hard as it's supposed to.

I'm okay with some level of ambiguity kept about Glorio's backstory and his connection to Arinsu. But it was essential to establish, if not with ham-handed flashbacks then on some emotional level, why he's so loyal to her. A token line that she somehow saved or uplifted him from squalor in the Third Demon World (after he's already made the difficult decision) doesn't quite cut it. Again, emotionally, it's hard to buy that she offers something so much better than Goku, Nahare and Panzy that he would be seriously torn up about who to make a wish for. His decision to wish for his new friends therefore feels incredibly obvious.

The thing is, it would have been quite easy to do. Arinsu is a domineering maternal figure. We end up half-rooting for Kuu and Duu not just because they're surprisingly likeable, but because it's rewarding to see them please their mother. Glorio seems to have a similar relationship to her, judging by Kuu stepping up and affirming his loyalty after Glorio is sacked.

I don't think Glorio has been particularly well-served on a writing level. If anything, it's the performance from Koki Yuchiyama that carries all the dramatic weight, i.e. his change to a meek, supplicating tone while around Arinsu contrasted against his usual cold, dour demeanour.

[fadeddreams5]

Beerus is meant to be an unobtainable ideal that Goku and Vegeta will strive to but never meet. He will never be surpassed. Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct is literally the show telling you that they will never reach him because they intrinsically cannot master these forms because of the decades of character development they've gone through.

In the manga, maybe. In the anime, I'm waiting until they reveal Beerus was surpassed long ago when Goku finally challenges him to a rematch. Dude looked spooked when he saw SSJB Kaioken, and surprised with Ultra Instinct. Jiren is clearly stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction, and Goku couldn't touch him at all as a SSJG in his base form, let alone full power. And Goku deduces that Broly is likely as strong or stronger than Beerus too.