Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[NeoZ Duwang]

It sure was a forgettable ride, huh?

I'll be honest, Daima is such a strange series to me. On one hand, I had a lot of fun watching it from beginning to end, but I also couldn't help but roll my eyes with its storytelling: from the very bad set up and pay offs, to the terrible exposition and lore dumps, the writing is all over the place and feels weirdly unrefined to me... Then you have Koo and Doo, who might be some of the best characters to come from this revival era and some other really funny stuff.

As far as Dragon Ball sequels go, this one is the shortest of them, which alone is enough to make it my favorite one since I don't particularly love any of them as much as the original series. I honestly think that, in general, the writing is weaker than GT's and Super's, but also, those series had some really low lows (Super 17, Evil Dragons and Tournament of Power), while Daima is a shorter, consistently average show, with some nice gags here and there.

Also, yeah, there's no way Daima takes place in the same continuity as Super now that it's confirmed Goku can access SSJ4 without Neva. I've seen some people arguing that Daima using/referencing elements from Super (Multiverse and Kaioshin from different universes) should make them both part of the same continuity. Personally, I don't agree, I see this just as a piece of brand consistency. I suspect that, if Toei decided to revisit GT (as in, doing something new with GT's continuity) they would also say that Goku and the others live in universe 7 and insert a bunch of tiny references to worldbuilding from Super. Canon is arbitrary anyway, none of this is real, everything is canon

[foxfang4]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

[SupremeKai25]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Exactly. Such a simple explanation.

Logically-speaking SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus, so it absolutely isn't a deal-breaker that Goku didn't use it. Absolutely nothing would have changed in the story, it would only have prolonged Goku's suffering for a few minutes.

Daima would only contradict Super if, for example, it introduced a form stronger than Beerus. Which is not the case.

[Extreme_kai]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Let's not play coy. Super does not easily continue off where Daima left off lol. Kibito and Shin are defused, which does not fit with DBS. Goku would absolutely use his most powerful form at the time SSJ4 to fight with Beerus. Even though he wouldn't have won, he would still go with the form that has more firepower behind it. By your logic, he might as well used Ssj2. As you said, It's not like it would have been effective anyway. The truth is there is, no canon beyond the original series manga run. The timeline is too convoluted at this point. Hell... super itself contradicts the EOZ for there to be a coherent 'canon' with DBZ. Btw I'm not a canonite who needs everything to be canon, but I'm just telling it like it is. None of it adds up to a coherent timeline. The only way for it to make sense is alternative timelines.

[NeoZ Duwang]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Intention is important in this case. Goku uses SSJ3 because it's the strongest form he has when meeting Beerus (it certainly was the case from an out of universe perspective). We also see Goku using the non-god forms throughout Super, so it's very convenient (althought not impossible) that he consistently would choose to skip 4 and only 4 every single time.

I mean, I guess you could still force Super and Daima to be in the same continuity, but I don't see how that contributes to either of these series when the former was written without any of this new information in mind and most of it would barely have any bearing on its story, while the latter clearly is ignoring the former as much as it can. At this point you might as well say GT is a sequel to Super, I'm sure it's possible to shove them together in the same timeline too, but why tho?

[Brettjr25]

Man, there are so many "wtf" moments this episode that it was clear that the team working on this was just having fun with and I decided to chill and follow along and had fun with the last episode.

I also know a lot of people thought the series was forgettable but it wasn't for me. I really loved the early adventure style episodes, visiting foreign places, different cultures, helping natives. Loved it and honestly after the last episode, immediately felt like rewatching it.

Minor gripes:
SS4 still confuses me though, it looked like it definitely was given to him from Neva but the end implies that Goku learned it prior after training after Buu and just decided to give it a try? So what, after goku lost Neva just healed him, even though the power Neva put in him clearly showed it transforming Goku and Goku clearly looking shocked at his own transformation..?

Was not expecting Arinsu to be framed as a "good guy" and or on friendly terms with the team. I like her and welcome more interesting female characters and wish the series dived into the background between her and "Gloryhole" but what exactly set her apart from Gomah and Degesu? The fact she failed at her goal unlike Gomah or that she got found out later instead of earlier like Degesu? If anything I thought she was supposed to be worse since she was the sneakiest and a double traitor. *shrugs*

Anyway it's interesting to think that the Nameks may return to their home world.

[ZeroNeonix]

I think Daima and Super are intended to be part of the same continuity. How do we explain the contradictions? We don't. The series isn't internally consistent anymore. Just don't think about it. The writers don't. lol

[SupremeKai25]

but I don't see how that contributes to either of these series when the former was written without any of this new information in mind and most of it would barely have any bearing on its story

One of the common talking points is how the stuff introduced in Daima could be used by Super in a future storyline. Especially as pertaining to Rymus, a Creator God who looks very similar to Zeno, and the Namekians/Zalama lore as pertaining to the Demon Realm as a place of origin for Namekians.

Daima's stuff will not have any bearing on Super or vice-versa? I disagree. The lore in Daima functions to corroborate the lore of Super.

Daima itself took from Super the "7th Universe" lore point.

So I'm the only one who wants that Rymus guy to show up in Super? This cool lore drop should just be shelved and forgotten with Daima's ending?

[JulieYBM]

I've been fond of saying that I won't be returning to Daima, so I definitely get it. Select moments make for fun clips, but the series does not work as a cohesive whole. I wouldn't be surprised if the staff were instructed to construct Daima in that way, so that the series would get social media buzz, but not necessarily work or need to work as a cohesive television series.

Very good friend of mine today said "I'll revisit the first Tamagami fight on YouTube, but that's probably about it," and it struck me what my overall issue really boils down to with Daima:

I like it. I've said I like it a lot of times....but I like it about AS MUCH as I like some of the best DBZ movies. It's a fun little dose of Dragon Ball, but has probably none of the highest moments in the franchise for me.....and if I want a fun little dose of Dragon Ball, I'm FAR more likely to re-watch a 50-minute movie than a 20-episode show.

A lot of those older movies have great atmosphere and sound work. Hell, two of them have musical numbers!

That's more than you can see for Dragon Ball Daima, where the scenes just aren't fun to watch together, as a singular episode.

[ZeroNeonix]

SS4 still confuses me though, it looked like it definitely was given to him from Neva but the end implies that Goku learned it prior after training after Buu and just decided to give it a try? So what, after goku lost Neva just healed him, even though the power Neva put in him clearly showed it transforming Goku and Goku clearly looking shocked at his own transformation..?

The way I interpret it is like this: Goku is capable of going Super Saiyan 4 at the start of the show, but he hadn't done it before. As he says, he didn't know if it would work. As a child, Goku is weaker than he was as an adult, and probably couldn't do it. When Neva gives his child body a boost, he enables Goku to transform for the first time by unlocking his hidden potential. When Goku gets his adult body back, he has both the power and the knowhow to accomplish the transformation without help.

[Artorias]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Exactly. Such a simple explanation.

Logically-speaking SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus, so it absolutely isn't a deal-breaker that Goku didn't use it. Absolutely nothing would have changed in the story, it would only have prolonged Goku's suffering for a few minutes.

Daima would only contradict Super if, for example, it introduced a form stronger than Beerus. Which is not the case.

While the spirit of what you're both saying is kinda true, that still doesn't work. Goku outright says explicitly that SSJ3 is his highest form when going against Beerus the first time. You can't get around this, it is a blatant plot hole. Now, after that point, could you TECHNICALLY write it off as everyone just not happening to mention SSJ4 on "camera" when we see them, and also Goku just choosing to never use it again, (despite that fact that he uses every other form in the series at some point)? Yes, technically none of that is a plot hole in the strictest sense. But, it's still extremely inconsistent and doesn't make much logical sense as a viewer if you were to look at it in-universe. If you showed Daima and then Super to someone who had never seen either they would CONSTANTLY be asking why Goku isn't using SSJ4 during Super. That's a significant writing problem created by Daima that you can't get around.

[SupremeKai25]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Exactly. Such a simple explanation.

Logically-speaking SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus, so it absolutely isn't a deal-breaker that Goku didn't use it. Absolutely nothing would have changed in the story, it would only have prolonged Goku's suffering for a few minutes.

Daima would only contradict Super if, for example, it introduced a form stronger than Beerus. Which is not the case.

While the spirit of what you're both saying is kinda true, that still doesn't work. Goku outright says explicitly that SSJ3 is his highest form when going against Beerus the first time. You can't get around this, it is a blatant plot hole. Now, after that point, could you TECHNICALLY write it off as everyone just not happening to mention SSJ4 on "camera" when we see them, and also Goku just choosing to never use it again, (despite that fact that he uses every other form in the series at some point)? Yes, technically none of that is a plot hole in the strictest sense. But, it's still extremely inconsistent and doesn't make much logical sense as a viewer if you were to look at it in-universe. If you showed Daima and then Super to someone who had never seen either they would CONSTANTLY be asking why Goku isn't using SSJ4 during Super. That's a significant writing problem created by Daima that you can't get around.

I know for certainty that the "this is my strongest form" line comes from the manga. Toyotaro has no hand in Daima, so it doesn't really matter to me anyway. I would expect Toei to ignore Toyotaro's manga when giving input for Daima.

I can't recall if that line is ever said in the anime or movie, and I've heard conflicting reports on this.

[Artorias]

Exactly. Such a simple explanation.

Logically-speaking SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus, so it absolutely isn't a deal-breaker that Goku didn't use it. Absolutely nothing would have changed in the story, it would only have prolonged Goku's suffering for a few minutes.

Daima would only contradict Super if, for example, it introduced a form stronger than Beerus. Which is not the case.

While the spirit of what you're both saying is kinda true, that still doesn't work. Goku outright says explicitly that SSJ3 is his highest form when going against Beerus the first time. You can't get around this, it is a blatant plot hole. Now, after that point, could you TECHNICALLY write it off as everyone just not happening to mention SSJ4 on "camera" when we see them, and also Goku just choosing to never use it again, (despite that fact that he uses every other form in the series at some point)? Yes, technically none of that is a plot hole in the strictest sense. But, it's still extremely inconsistent and doesn't make much logical sense as a viewer if you were to look at it in-universe. If you showed Daima and then Super to someone who had never seen either they would CONSTANTLY be asking why Goku isn't using SSJ4 during Super. That's a significant writing problem created by Daima that you can't get around.

I know for certainty that the "this is my strongest form" line comes from the manga. Toyotaro has no hand in Daima, so it doesn't really matter to me anyway. I would expect Toei to ignore Toyotaro's manga when giving input for Daima.

I can't recall if that line is ever said in the anime or movie, and I've heard conflicting reports on this.

I frankly can't recall either, but even if he doesn't explicitly say it, he certainly implies it. It still doesn't make logical sense for Goku to hold back in that situation. You've got to do a lot of reaching to really explain why he wouldn't at least ATTEMPT or MENTION SSJ4 in that scene. Which yea, obviously he doesn't mention it because it wasn't thought of yet, but the point is that it creates a problem that requires the audience to suspend their disbelief to an almost comical degree.

[JulieYBM]

I forgot to mention: Blooma getting a way to make her skin look ten years younger? Oh, so Estradiol? :p

[NeoZ Duwang]

One of the common talking points is how the stuff introduced in Daima could be used by Super in a future storyline. Especially as pertaining to Rymus, a Creator God who looks very similar to Zeno, and the Namekians/Zalama lore as pertaining to the Demon Realm as a place of origin for Namekians.

Keyword is "could". I really don't see what else they could to with Rymus, and I honestly don't think he was even necessary in Daima, I'm not holding my breath for this character to ever be mentioned again. I also doubt they will do anything with Zalama after 9 years of this character being first mentioned

Daima's stuff will not have any bearing on Super or vice-versa? I disagree. The lore in Daima functions to corroborate the lore of Super.

I want to make myself clear here. What I meant is that, as it is right now, Super and Daima are irrelevant to each other storywise. I don't see how, currently, there's enough connection between them to ignore the huge inconsistencies between both series. I really can't see them being in the same continuity at all, there are to many oddities that suggest they are just completely sepparate storylines. Sure, plotholes are nothing new, but Daima went out of its way to introduce new transformations and unfuse Kibito and Shin (something that was used as an argument as to why GT couldn't be part of the same continuity as Super when it came out). If Toei really wants to force them together, they can, and if they ever reference Daima in new Super matterial, then I guess they are oficially in the same continuity

Other than the fact Toriyama worked on both of them, there's nothing that implies Super and Daima both need to be part of the same storyline. Super is the main sequel to the original manga, while Daima is a celebration of Dragon Ball's 40th anniversary, and that's all they are to me until something explicit is said about their connection

Daima itself took from Super the "7th Universe" lore point.

As I said in a previous post, I see this just as brand consistency. Sharing the same multiverse system and tiny bits of lore doesn't necessarily mean they're the same continuity. Different storylines can share lore between them. I don't know a lot about Dragon Ball's game storylines, but isn't that basically what DBO, Xenoverse and Heroes do?

So I'm the only one who wants that Rymus guy to show up in Super? This cool lore drop should just be shelved and forgotten with Daima's ending?

I'm sure you're not the only one... Personally, I don't care about it and I think Rymus is as likely to appear again as Zalama, but I can kind of get this feeling. Still, I don't think Daima does enough with the idea of Rymus to have any impact on a story that actually does something with him. Again, unless Super actually brings him up and makes it clear that the characters remember him from episode 10's lore dump, I'll have no reason to assume they're part of the same continuity

[mecha3000]

Guys, is the canon discussion even necessary?

Think about it, if Beerus "flicked" Super Saiyan 3 Goku, then obviously Goku figured out that Super Saiyan 4 would not be effective at all. So, the God forms basically made SSJ4 obsolete, and not needed to be mentioned ever again. From there, Super easily continues where Daima left off.

Let's not play coy. Super does not easily continue off where Daima left off lol. Kibito and Shin are defused, which does not fit with DBS. Goku would absolutely use his most powerful form at the time SSJ4 to fight with Beerus. Even though he wouldn't have won, he would still go with the form that has more firepower behind it. By your logic, he might as well used Ssj2. As you said, It's not like it would have been effective anyway. The truth is there is, no canon beyond the original series manga run. The timeline is too convoluted at this point. Hell... super itself contradicts the EOZ for there to be a coherent 'canon' with DBZ. Btw I'm not a canonite who needs everything to be canon, but I'm just telling it like it is. None of it adds up to a coherent timeline. The only way for it to make sense is alternative timelines.

My thoughts EXACTLY. Everyone trying to head canon Daima into tying into Super are just in denial at this point. I also blame people like Geekdom101 and MasakoX for being so adamant to tell people GUYS TRUST ME, DAIMA TIES INTO SUPER and coming up with contrived reasons for said tie-in. Again, I don't care about canon with Dragon Ball outside of the original manga from 1984 to 1995. That's the true canon. And even going by the anime, I consider Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT to be the "anime canon" because nothing in GT contradicts the previous two anime in a big way (outside of showing villains like Cooler and stuff). Meanwhile, Super and Daima (especially Super) do kind of contradict things from the manga.

[Zinnia]

but also, those series had some really low lows (Super 17, Evil Dragons and Tournament of Power), while Daima is a shorter, consistently average show, with some nice gags here and there.

I disagree. After seeing Degesu and Gomah, Super 17 is masterpiece of a villain. Actually had a personality, could speak during his fights, had a bit of the 17 we know and love inside which ultimately led to his defeat, and his design rocked.

[Ronin]

Not a bad episode, but I found myself a little bored during the fight. The end of it starting with the kamehameha had my full attention, though. That part was good. It is odd that Gomah had pretty much no chemistry with anyone but Degesu and that nameless blue lady. Did Gomah even exchange any dialogue with anyone during the final fight? He told Vegeta not to destroy his ring and yelled at everyone in general, saying something like "I'll crush you all!" a few times and he talked to himself, but that's it. Goku might as well had been hitting a punching bag the whole time he fought Gomah.

I like how Kuu became the new Supreme Demon King, but all of Arinsu's character development happened in about 30 seconds. She went from wanting her goal as Supreme Demon King and bossing Kuu and Duu around to supporting Kuu as the new Supreme Demon King uncomfortably fast. We could've been exploring her character development that leads to this moment in the last episode instead of the filler-like content we got.

Is it ever explained why Neva helped out Gomah and Degesu at the start? Did he have ulterior motives to lead the Dragon Team to the Demon Realm in hopes of saving it? That's my assumption, but I dunno.

Overall, I felt Daima's potential was squandered. It had some nice moments here and there, but it wasted too much time spinning its wheels when we could've gotten more of the main story. I was hoping for an adventure of a dragon ball hunt similar to Namek where there're twists and turns in the story and the dragon balls trade hands multiple times. Didn't have to be all action, but a lot of what we got was just too boring for me. It's okay for a one-time watch, I guess. If I watch it in its entirety again, it'll be once in a blue moon. I was hoping there was gonna be some payoff in the last half of the series that balanced out with the first half, but it fell short. That said, I might like it slightly better than Super and it's definitely still better than GT.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

1st half of this episode was a spectacle to watch.
2nd half I was laughing all the way through.

Was this a perfect series? No but did I have a lot of fun in this little romp that Toriyama provided us one last time? Yeah, I had a great time and reminded me why I love Dragon ball.

[Jack Bz]

I am disappointed that it's impossible for it to link with Super, but it's also interesting that Toriyama's parting Dragon Ball story was one that well and truly says that a strict canon doesn't exist for Dragon Ball. I wonder if it was intentional.

One of the best episodes of Daima for sure. The fight in the first half was absolutely crazy beautiful, and the kamehameha going through all 3 demon worlds and the water flooding back into the first demon world was GORGEOUS imagery. I can't believe I am reading people saying they got bored/zoned out during it.

The character moments in the 2nd half were excellent, and I wish Daima had more of them. And the final scene in the bug store was...absolutely fantastically animated and again completely full of character. Bulma retreating from the bugs was just wonderful. The quality of animation in this episode was better than every dragon ball movie bar-Broly imo.

I also love that, in typical Toriyama fashion, the story ends in a way where it's easy to let your imagination run wild thinking of what could happen next.