Daima to Super Connection

[Marco Polo]

So all this time in Super he's been building off of this core idea of these powerful Gods that wasn't actually his idea in the first place. So it makes sense that it's not something he would automatically retain as a core element of his vision when working on an unrelated project.

If I recall correctly the initial basic idea for Daima wasn't his idea either.

Hell, SSJ4 wasn't his idea either

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So all this time in Super he's been building off of this core idea of these powerful Gods that wasn't actually his idea in the first place. So it makes sense that it's not something he would automatically retain as a core element of his vision when working on an unrelated project.

If I recall correctly the initial basic idea for Daima wasn't his idea either.

Hell, SSJ4 wasn't his idea either

Nothing in modern DB was really his idea. BoG was a re-write, a producer seemed to imply reviving Freeza was their idea. Future Trunks was was again editorial as was Broly and pushing Gohan for SUPER HERO. Vegetto Blue was Toyo's idea etc etc

Toriyama just went with the flow

[Muffin Man]

So all this time in Super he's been building off of this core idea of these powerful Gods that wasn't actually his idea in the first place. So it makes sense that it's not something he would automatically retain as a core element of his vision when working on an unrelated project.

If I recall correctly the initial basic idea for Daima wasn't his idea either.

Hell, SSJ4 wasn't his idea either

Well the core idea for Daima is the demon realm, which AT came up with back in the Buu saga, and he expanded on that concept in Daima.

https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-daim ... nce-death/

"He created the entire story. He designed nearly all the characters--from those in the tavern to the various monsters appearing throughout the Demon Realm. Even the mechanical designs, like the aircraft, are his work," said Iyoku. "He even conceptualized the entire world of the Demon Realm, which consists of the First, Second, and Third Realms, each with its own unique form and history." Iyoku emphasized that Toriyama's focus was on storytelling, going back and designing characters and setting around the story he wanted to tell. Toriyama also put in great effort designing characters, such as Panzy's father, King Kadan."


SS4's an interesting one because the basic concept of a SS4 is really a continuation of AT's idea to have SS1, SS2, and SS3, so SS4 is a natural extension of that. AT did borrow the design from someone else though (and modified it a decent amount).

[BernardoCairo]

I'm almost 100% sure that Toyotaro was getting input from Toriyama during Daima's development.
Or do you think the Granolah arc wasn't influenced by Daima? At that point, they had already established that the Namekians were from the Demon Realm. Also, Monaito and Neva are mch alike.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Akio Iyoku is going to say whatever he has to in order to get people watching. It would be one thing if toriyama himself was commenting on the connection between daima and super but unfortunately that can't happen. And the facts today are that there are at least 3 inconsistencies between daima and super: kibith and shin being unfused, ssj3 vegeta and ssj4 goku. Vegeta's ssj3 can easily be explained by the fact that he doesn't like the stamina drain he experienced in the gomah fight. The other two however are pretty bad discrepancies.

And this is even worse than every retcon dragonball had in the past because here they don't even give us new context. Usually rectons in dragonball were done by taking a concept or an event, and expanding on it, like with the potara earrings or goku being revealed to be an alien. And it was always done in a way that never directly contradicts what was shown. Here if they really retconned those things, then it's the clunkiest sloppiest retcons this franchise has ever faced. They literally left us fans to pick up the pieces and make sense of it ourselves and do their job for them.

Obviously Iyoku is never going to say that they are different continuities and leave people curious until the very last second. Frankly, I don't even know if they care that much in japan about continuities and canon like that. Everyone says that they have a different attitude when it comes to that stuff.

And honestly I think they have the right idea if that's the case. I love super, and I love daima, and I even like parts of gt (I'll admit, I'm a shameless dragonball fanboy that just loves the franchise) debating about canonicity, which continuity is better and more important than the other etc feels like a waste of time, a fruitless effort that takes away from the fun of this franchise, and divides the fandom.

[Skar]

At first it seemed Daima was intended as a prequel to Super since it mentioned U7 and showed some Kaioshin of other universes. Some of the other discrepancies could've been handwaved like Toriyama drawing Shin and Kibito already defused in BoG and maybe forgetting to tell Toei so they came up with their own explanation later. Also with Buu's "bad air/gas" defusing them since that's the same reason given in the original manga so maybe the time limit for mortals only applied to Super to include Vegetto.

It could be that it shares some lore with Toriyama's contributions to Super but diverged earlier and intended as its own continuity. I think it makes sense how some fans explained it that the original manga is the main continuity or source and everything else in the franchise diverges from there in different continuities. It's still a loose continuity since they borrow from each other like the Super manga including both the anime and Online Yardrat designs or having a statue of Olibu and Super anime referencing some filler scenes.

"Canon" doesn't really matter and just different official continuities. Broly and SSJ4 are probably good examples. Toriyama's version is just a different adaptation and it didn't erase the original Broly since he's still featured in video games and merchandise. Same with SSJ4 and probably both versions would just be labeled differently after Daima.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Daima could be tied to Super, Toyo just needs to think of a reason that Goku hasn't used SS4 since then. Maybe it uses so much energy that he usually can only maintain it for a few seconds, making it almost useless, but he was able to use it in Daima because of the energy boost that Neva gave him. We already know why Vegeta doesn't use SS3, it's Goku's transformation and he doesn't like to copy him, that's why he refused to use the ritual to achieve SSG, he refuses to teleport, and he didn't want to learn Ultra Instinct.

[nineko]

As I said in another topic, it's still possible (though extremely unlikely) for Daima and Super to be coherently connected.

Just like the manga adaptation of Super Hero had a few additional prequel chapters (giving an extended introduction to the events of the movie), they can just as easily add a couple of explanatory chapters at the end of the eventual manga adaptation of Daima.

Now, we all know they're not going to, but the possibility is still there.

[Mr Baggins]

As I said in another topic, it's still possible (though extremely unlikely) for Daima and Super to be coherently connected.

Just like the manga adaptation of Super Hero had a few additional prequel chapters (giving an extended introduction to the events of the movie), they can just as easily add a couple of explanatory chapters at the end of the eventual manga adaptation of Daima.

Now, we all know they're not going to, but the possibility is still there.

and several years after super, the saiyans lose their god powers, kibito and shin decide to fuse again bc hey why not, frieza dies once again and gets sentenced to a fate worse than hell: filler hell, mai gets so tired of trunks bothering her that she gathers up all the dragon balls and wishes to reverse the whole pilaf gang back to their real ages, and pilaf discovers a new set of dragon balls

*cue dan dan kokoro hikareteku theme*

[nineko]

*cue dan dan kokoro hikareteku theme*

I know you're joking, but I actually said this (with slightly different words) back in 2022: viewtopic.php?p=1741942#p1741942

We both know that's not going to happen, but they could if they wanted to.

[Muffin Man]

Akio Iyoku is going to say whatever he has to in order to get people watching. It would be one thing if toriyama himself was commenting on the connection between daima and super but unfortunately that can't happen. And the facts today are that there are at least 3 inconsistencies between daima and super: kibith and shin being unfused, ssj3 vegeta and ssj4 goku.

There are a few more incongruities.

1. Daima and Super have different original sets of Dragon Balls. In Daima, the original set of dragon balls was created by Neva before the Namekians left the demon realm. In Super, the first set of dragon balls was the super dragon balls, which are scattered across Universe 6 and 7. The Namekians created their own dragon balls by using fragments of the super dragon balls.

2. In Daima, Rymus is explicitly stated to be the highest authority in the universe. In Super, that role belongs to Zeno.

3. Shin tells the main cast, including Goku and Vegeta, that Rymus created multiple universes. In Super, when Champa tells Goku and Vegeta about the existence of multiple universes, they are both shocked and Vegeta proclaims that he never knew about this before.

[Mr Baggins]

I know you're joking, but I actually said this (with slightly different words) back in 2022: viewtopic.php?p=1741942#p1741942

Oh shit, touché!

We both know that's not going to happen, but they could if they wanted to.

They can try, but I hope they instead do the reasonable thing and just embrace Dragon Ball Zelda for what it is. There are way too many discrepancies between the 3 sequels (some of which actually seem intentional in Daima's case) for these to be anything other than differing continuities. Which is cool, if I'm being perfectly candid. I think it's liberating.

But yeah, all these posts are giving me flashbacks to the exact same arguments we were all having 10 years ago lol

[Marco Polo]

They can try, but I hope they instead do the reasonable thing and just embrace Dragon Ball Zelda for what it is. There are way too many discrepancies between the 3 sequels (some of which actually seem intentional in Daima's case) for these to be anything other than differing continuities. Which is cool, if I'm being perfectly candid. I think it's liberating.

But yeah, all these posts are giving me flashbacks to the exact same arguments we were all having 10 years ago lol

It would be ironic if Dragon Ball Heroes ends up being the main timeline from now on, due to having been the first sequel to account for the concept of multiple continuities co-existing lol

[WittyUsername]

I don’t see why anyone would want to connect Daima and Super at this point, unless they’re worried about the former “overriding” the latter. Just let them stand as their own separate things.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don’t see why anyone would want to connect Daima and Super at this point, unless they’re worried about the former “overriding” the latter.

Daima was produced as a one and done project, it was never intended to replace anything. Super will likely continue once they figure out how to move forward without Toriyama.

[Marco Polo]

I don’t see why anyone would want to connect Daima and Super at this point, unless they’re worried about the former “overriding” the latter. Just let them stand as their own separate things.

Well that's a lot of people precisely

[Mister_Popo]

So far, we have no confirmation that Daima takes place in a separate continuity. That is purely speculation at this point. It could still go in any direction. There are still nearly four years between Daima and Battle of Gods. If Daima gets a second season or a movie, that could be enough to smooth out the biggest inconsistencies and allow everything to more or less align with Super.

[FinalForumPodcast]

imho, attempting to rationalize a Dragon Ball 'canon' outside of the original manga is a nightmare and not worth the effort...and nobody can give you a definitive answer on anything in that vein, no matter what they say, because Toriyama never said (probably because he really didn't CARE).

I wouldn't put Daima any higher or lower on that "everything else" scale than...anything else. Toriyama worked on a LOT of the non-canon stuff, more than people want to admit, and less on Daima than people want to believe, too. This wasn't some "I'm finally telling the story I want to" moment. It was him being approached while working on Super Hero and being asked "Hey. What would you do for a show, if you didn't have to worry about the current continuity of these movies?"

Actual quote (from Akio Iyoku):
"...when we were making 'Dragon Ball Super: Super Heroes,' we started talking about wanting to do a new series with a different plot from the movie. We were making the movie, and in order not to burden Toriyama, I wanted him to just take a look at it, rather than having him make it in full, so I asked him what he thought..."

That's how Battle of Gods started. And Resurrection F. And my understanding is, that's largely how Super was written: they'd get in a room and an editor would say "We want to do [this] next" and Toriyama would advise how he'd do that. He got more involved with Daima than he did the Super anime, but no less than any of the four most recent movies. It's great that you can see his fingerprints on it at times, but there's also some lack of clarity on HOW MUCH his fingerprints are there, considering Iyoku also admitted the show was in production before Toriyama had finished a story or script.


It's all freeing in a way, because you can just like what you like and not worry about whether it "fits" or doesn't with something else because...nothing does.

[emperior]

Fact is, why would Toriyama not connect Daima to Super, if not because he saw the opportunity to start from fresh and continue his story in a way that satisfied him more?

It’s not a mystery he was disappointed with Super’s quality. So it makes sense for him to disregard it entirely.

With Daima being his final work and it not fitting with Super, it’s clear it takes precedence.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think Toriyama really cared for particular details such as the form Goku used against the antagonist before he gets yet another form. What I'm saying is that in Toriyama's "canon" aka his story of Dragon Ball in his head, Goku probably did in fact use SS4 against Beerus and then still needed SSG, just as in Toriyama's canon Shin and Kibito have been separate since the Boo arc ending.

Daima shares too many details with Super stuff for me to think Toriyama completely erased it from his mind. Not just the big stuff like the cosmology but even little details such as Bulma's obsession with cosmetics.

Ironically, her buying the cosmetic bugs could be seen as a contradiction to her asking for Shenlong to make her younger later on.