If Daima becomes non-canon to Super, then what was the point?

[Issei189]

One other thing I’ll say is that it does seem like Daima was something Toriyama had more fun working on compared to pretty much anything related to Super, with the possible exception of SH. The more I think about it, it’s not surprising that he wasn’t concerned about staying consistent DBS. He just wanted to tell a silly story that interested him.

The late Toriyama has generally never cared for consistency when he came back to DB. Remember when he forgot that Goku mediated in training sessions when he wrote DBS SH. Fans also were making a big deal out of this 1.5 years ago. It was until Toyotaro adapted this story in the manga. He fixed that plot hole.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima feels like AT setting Super aside and adding one last final flourish onto his original story in a way that ties up a loose end from the Buu arc and thematically brings things full circle back to the start of DB.

Gomah is very close to Pilaf as a character, so he's indeed a fitting final to the original story.

[Magnificent Ponta]

So, I guess we're back to the beginning, where only the original story is certainly the story and the rest is possible, but not certain. Like a big ole "Choose Your Own Adventure" storybook. It's all Dragon Ball! It can be any or all of the things at once! Pick and enjoy what you like! Whatever you want, Bud!

On one level I can kind of see the appeal to that, and I can hardly say it's "wrong" - I think Dragon Ball is big enough for fans to enjoy as many of the stories and storytelling styles as they wish - but I also can't help but admit that the sloppiness of it grates on me. Among other reasons, I follow Dragon Ball as the story of the adventures that make up Son Goku's "life", and I don't think it's too much to ask that I can straightforwardly see and know what that narrative actually amounts to, rather than just getting a huge editorial shrug in exchange for my investment.

I just can't love Schrödinger's Dragon Ball.

[super michael]

One other thing I’ll say is that it does seem like Daima was something Toriyama had more fun working on compared to pretty much anything related to Super, with the possible exception of SH. The more I think about it, it’s not surprising that he wasn’t concerned about staying consistent DBS. He just wanted to tell a silly story that interested him.

The late Toriyama has generally never cared for consistency when he came back to DB. Remember when he forgot that Goku mediated in training sessions when he wrote DBS SH. Fans also were making a big deal out of this 1.5 years ago. It was until Toyotaro adapted this story in the manga. He fixed that plot hole.

The conversation between Goku and Vegeta in DBS Super Hero was that Toriyama decision or was that Toei? Correct me if I am wrong, didn't Toriyama want DBS Super Hero to be a Piccolo movie, but Toei suggested to add Gohan?

Of course even if it was Toei suggestion, Toriyama would still get blamed for accepting it, since he has the final word.

Toei with DBS they did everything in their power to make Goku dumb, luckily Toyotaro reduced it by a lot.

[Izanagi]

If Super and Daima are non-canon, neither are OG DB and DBZ, LMAO! Literally written by Toriyama.

Nope.

Dragon Ball is a manga of 42 volumes written and drawn by Toriyama alone with a beginning, middle and an end. Without the source material, you wouldn't be having Super and Daima in the first place and nobody can change that. All the rest are spin-offs to the source material to some degree and you can interpret them as you want.

[Muffin Man]

Yeah nothing compares to the original manga in terms of being straight from Toriyama's brain. Everything after that has been collaborative projects that Toriyama has had varying degrees of involvement with.

[MisteryOne]

This is fandom is seriously beyond redemption now. Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

I hate GT because I find it to be a poor product, not because it isn't canon. I can't help but pity you if in order to enjoy something it must be something only written by the original author, in all honestly. The best part of Super, the Moro arc, is the one where Toriyama was the least involved. Not everything he did was gold.

The fact that a thread like this even exists is pretty concerning really.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

This has been going on well before this revival began. GT and the old Z movies were regularly judged negatively solely based on them not being directly written by Toriyama. It turns out that Toriyama did not enjoy working on Super, so it'll be interesting to see how that impacts people's views on the series once that fact becomes more widespread.

[SupremeKai25]

Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

It turns out that Toriyama did not enjoy working on Super

Any source for this?

[smiley]

Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

This has been going on well before this revival began. GT and the old Z movies were regularly judged negatively solely based on them not being directly written by Toriyama. It turns out that Toriyama did not enjoy working on Super, so it'll be interesting to see how that impacts people's views on the series once that fact becomes more widespread.

They say that he did not show enthusiasm when the idea of continuing Dragon Ball was PROPOSED.

That's all. But since he eventually started working on it anyway, despite his initial lack of enthusiasm, it is entirely possible that he was able to find enjoyment in the work.

[Muffin Man]

This is fandom is seriously beyond redemption now. Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

I hate GT because I find it to be a poor product, not because it isn't canon. I can't help but pity you if in order to enjoy something it must be something only written by the original author, in all honestly. The best part of Super, the Moro arc, is the one where Toriyama was the least involved. Not everything he did was gold.

The fact that a thread like this even exists is pretty concerning really.

Who said anything about enjoying or not enjoying stuff? Like, I enjoy the Cooler films immensely more than I enjoy Resurrection F, but that doesn't change the fact that Resurrection F is the one that AT worked on and acknowledged.

[JulieYBM]

This is fandom is seriously beyond redemption now. Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

I hate GT because I find it to be a poor product, not because it isn't canon. I can't help but pity you if in order to enjoy something it must be something only written by the original author, in all honestly. The best part of Super, the Moro arc, is the one where Toriyama was the least involved. Not everything he did was gold.

The fact that a thread like this even exists is pretty concerning really.

Who said anything about enjoying or not enjoying stuff? Like, I enjoy the Cooler films immensely more than I enjoy Resurrection F, but that doesn't change the fact that Resurrection F is the one that AT worked on and acknowledged.

I love the Doctor Uirou film, myself. I think there's a major issue with how fandom discusses how important Toriyama's involvement is with these projects, though, and it unduly dictates the way that many individuals in the fandom form their own views and the direction of discussions.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Do you seriously judge if a piece of media is good or has a point based on it being canon or not alone?

It turns out that Toriyama did not enjoy working on Super

Any source for this?

Spoiler:

https://xcancel.com/Venixys/status/1893760603648331782

Thank JulieYBM for providing the link.

[Basaku]

So, I guess we're back to the beginning, where only the original story is certainly the story and the rest is possible, but not certain. Like a big ole "Choose Your Own Adventure" storybook. It's all Dragon Ball! It can be any or all of the things at once! Pick and enjoy what you like! Whatever you want, Bud!

On one level I can kind of see the appeal to that, and I can hardly say it's "wrong" - I think Dragon Ball is big enough for fans to enjoy as many of the stories and storytelling styles as they wish - but I also can't help but admit that the sloppiness of it grates on me. Among other reasons, I follow Dragon Ball as the story of the adventures that make up Son Goku's "life", and I don't think it's too much to ask that I can straightforwardly see and know what that narrative actually amounts to, rather than just getting a huge editorial shrug in exchange for my investment.

I just can't love Schrödinger's Dragon Ball.

Very well stated and said, agree completly

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, Toriyama wasn’t exactly thrilled about Super. That doesn’t mean he hated working on it though. He still enjoyed it to some degree, but it was clear that the creative spark was fading. Given all that, it makes sense that he wanted to try something different with Daima, which reflects more of his personal touch.

“Schrödinger’s Dragon Ball” is a hilarious way to put it, and honestly, I feel the same way sometimes. The franchise has grown so big that it seems like everything is possible but nothing is definitive, which can be fun but also frustrating. I loved Daima, but I can’t help but feel that future animated projects might just be a reflection of the current battle over Dragon Ball’s IP rather than a clear creative vision. That lack of a cohesive direction is what makes it feel messy rather than just expansive.

[GurixDr34]

I believe that Daima is Canon with Super because it is a work by Akira Toriyama there are many Retcons yes but the events of Super will occur the same for now Daima must be considered part of the same continuity as Super