Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I hope Daima is at least canon in broad strokes. Too much interesting worldbuilding to let it go to waste.

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

Problem is that there's a shortlist of things that make them incompatible with one another. You can't say both are canon because of those without something that changes them.

Canon =/= Continuity

Both are canon because they were written by Toriyama. That much is a fact. For reference simply check my signature. Toriyama literally saying that he made the story of Super. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

However they might not be in the same continuity or continuum of events, meaning that the events of Daima do not flow into Super.

Nonetheless, both are canon as they were written by Toriyama (original creator of the franchise).

[Hulk10]

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

Problem is that there's a shortlist of things that make them incompatible with one another. You can't say both are canon because of those without something that changes them.

Canon =/= Continuity

Both are canon because they were written by Toriyama. That much is a fact. For reference simply check my signature. Toriyama literally saying that he made the story of Super. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

However they might not be in the same continuity or continuum of events, meaning that the events of Daima do not flow into Super.

Nonetheless, both are canon as they were written by Toriyama (original creator of the franchise).

Continiuty is a good point to raise

[QuakingStar]

Since when Toriyama's work is "not canon"? Daima is 100% "canon" whether part of fandom likes it or not. Super, unfortunately, is "canon" too. It's a mess but it is what it is.

Problem is that there's a shortlist of things that make them incompatible with one another. You can't say both are canon because of those without something that changes them.

Canon =/= Continuity

Both are canon because they were written by Toriyama. That much is a fact. For reference simply check my signature. Toriyama literally saying that he made the story of Super. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

However they might not be in the same continuity or continuum of events, meaning that the events of Daima do not flow into Super.

Nonetheless, both are canon as they were written by Toriyama (original creator of the franchise).

He clearly considered Daima to be part of his story, continuing from the Buu Saga on. But he also felt that way about DBSuper didn't he? The manga was even referred to as the "true story" and not the anime version of DBS. It is now up to Toyotaro, Uchiha etc. to figure out how to bridge everything and cover the retcons and holes Toriyama left behind.

[SupremeKai25]

The manga was even referred to as the "true story" and not the anime version of DBS.

I don't recall any such statement, and frankly, I doubt Toriyama and Toyotaro had the bitter hatred for the anime that some in the fandom have.

Just because Toriyama complained about the quality of the Super anime doesn't mean he hated it or considered it non-canon, and besides that was at the very beginning of 2016, before Super anime redeemed itself with the wonderful Future Trunks and Tournament of Power sagas.

Either way, I don't make distinctions between anime and manga. All follow the story Toriyama created from scratch, so they are canon.

[MCDaveG]

I don't believe in canon in Dragon Ball... There are some continuity errors, the shows do not really align with the End Of Z either at this point (Daima might, as outside the reality of Demon World, the overal impact of the story was insignificant and SSJ4 doesn't break anything in regards to the DB and Z continuity), but I guess the best thing we might hope for is some guidebook or timeline from official source, like the one for the Gundam franchise.
The Gundam one is crazy mess with alternate continuities having one merging point with post-apo show, but unfortunately, Dragon Ball is basically one straight timeline with the same characters as in Gundam the story can be explained as each century/universe ending in cataclysm or goes through world changing events in centuries inbetween some shows, with few hickups and hurdles anyway.

Trunks' parallel continuities do not count, even tho, they might be retroactively used by the creators of a book or possible new spin-offs for explaining pretty much how some elements contradict each other and even incorporate the movies. Which might create even more dissaray in fandom probably, but it might work better than the said Gundam.
At least, it might stop all that bickering about canon, as the franchise in total simply doesn't have one continuity and every new material is basically a sequel reboot (2010s Z Movies do not work with Super and vice-versa, Super doesn't work with Daima and vice-versa, not to mention GT, that doesn't work either, but everything works with the OG story, besides for some plot points towards the EOZ in Super).
Then the flame wars might change into what's your favorite continuity

[Ten na nGael]

It was a fun show that dragged a bit at points. I enjoyed the vistas/geography of the demon world, a good mix of creative world building and the typical character of Toriyama's art. I probably would have preferred less fighting. The SSJ4 fight for example was animated very well, but didn't engage me since it had no narrative weight behind it.

In my local area children seem to have really enjoyed it.

[TKA]

On the topic of canon:

It's a meaningless term in media franchises that get this big and involve this many people and products.

"Canon to" is how you should think of it.

People on previous pages said Super is canon. But, like, which version of Super? That depends, doesn't it? The Super manga is canon to the original manga. The Super anime seems far more canon to the original anime, with it constantly making references to things from it that wouldn't have existed in the original manga.

The term "canon to" is much more useful.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The Super manga is canon to the original manga.

One would naturally think that, but there's also things in the super manga that contradict the original: notably piccolo having five fingers like in the anime instead of four, like toriyama alwas drew him, and then there's things like anime only characters like gregory appearing in the manga, or kid vegeta's design being the wrong one with the bangs which contradicts the lore about saiyans' hair never changing since birth (which is so frustrating becuase they got it right in the movie and somehow forgot when readapting it both in anime and manga form)

[johnboy1]

The Super manga is canon to the original manga.

One would naturally think that, but there's also things in the super manga that contradict the original: notably piccolo having five fingers like in the anime instead of four, like toriyama alwas drew him, and then there's things like anime only characters like gregory appearing in the manga, or kid vegeta's design being the wrong one with the bangs which contradicts the lore about saiyans' hair never changing since birth (which is so frustrating becuase they got it right in the movie and somehow forgot when readapting it both in anime and manga form)

Didn't Gregory only appear in the manga for the 2008 Jump special? And in general, you have to make allowances for slip-ups in an IP this long-running. Star Wars (outside of a large-scale "reset" back in 2014) actually cares about keeping continuity among its various products, and it still makes continuity errors ALL the damn time. Imagine how much worse it would be if tight continuity wasn't a priority at all, like with DB.

[Scsigs]

He clearly considered Daima to be part of his story, continuing from the Buu Saga on. But he also felt that way about DBSuper didn't he? The manga was even referred to as the "true story" and not the anime version of DBS. It is now up to Toyotaro, Uchiha etc. to figure out how to bridge everything and cover the retcons and holes Toriyama left behind.

The only place I've heard that the Super manga was referred to as the "true version" was apparently an exhibition in Tokyo that had animation produced that I believe was a promo thing for the Super: Broly movie. However, nowhere else has that been the case. Super was created as anime-first & the manga was meant to be tie-in material for the anime (this happens a lot in Japan as mainly marketing materials for any merch & the show or something similar, hence why the Yugioh spin-offs after Duel Monsters & the original manga have their own manga adaptations, as well as the various Pokemon mangas that adapt the games separately & more faithfully than the anime did). Toyotaro going his own way with the material, then eventually being the only one adapting Toriyama's plot outlines after the anime ended, is just a side effect of that.

Some fans like to think it's the "true version" because apparently Toyotaro was having Toriyama check his work & apparently Toriyama also altered or corrected some of his panels, as well as Toriyama being critical of the anime. However, this has never been stated to be the case officially outside of the 1 place & that was 1 exhibition that wasn't even talked about much, afaik. As far as the right's holders are concerned, the anime is the main version & the manga's a tie-in. My personal best version of Super's story arcs would be somewhere in the middle where you take the best ideas of both & mix & match them. For example, I hate how the Future Trunks Arc goes int he manga after a while from what I know about it. Zamasu splitting apart when that was explicitly stated not to happen when at least 1 of the fused is a Kai, then splitting into a bunch of clones that look like the fused version of them? How does THAT work? Toyotaro didn't think that one through. However, I also like the character development it gave to Trunks being trained by Supreme Kai & Kibito to defeat Babidi & his minions to stop Buu's resurrection, something the anime didn't even mentioned as having happened outside of them recruiting him.

I hope Toei brings the show back, maybe even with a subtitle like what's happening with the Boruto sequel manga & show having a different subtitle than the first one. They could adapt the arcs from the manga that haven't been animated yet. Hell, I'd also like to see the Jaco manga get a mini-series adaptation finally. Those would be cool.

[QuakingStar]

The manga was even referred to as the "true story" and not the anime version of DBS.

I don't recall any such statement, and frankly, I doubt Toriyama and Toyotaro had the bitter hatred for the anime that some in the fandom have.

Just because Toriyama complained about the quality of the Super anime doesn't mean he hated it or considered it non-canon, and besides that was at the very beginning of 2016, before Super anime redeemed itself with the wonderful Future Trunks and Tournament of Power sagas.

Either way, I don't make distinctions between anime and manga. All follow the story Toriyama created from scratch, so they are canon.

https://x.com/Herms98/status/1057911567927271424

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/drago ... t=original

https://imgur.com/y0qQYrk

The DBS Anime is not referenced at all. It's clear that until Daima DBS Manga is the true sequel to the DB manga. Daima is SUPPOSED to be in-between DB and DBS. But obviously that creates some issues as of rn.

[SupremeKai25]

The manga was even referred to as the "true story" and not the anime version of DBS.

I don't recall any such statement, and frankly, I doubt Toriyama and Toyotaro had the bitter hatred for the anime that some in the fandom have.

Just because Toriyama complained about the quality of the Super anime doesn't mean he hated it or considered it non-canon, and besides that was at the very beginning of 2016, before Super anime redeemed itself with the wonderful Future Trunks and Tournament of Power sagas.

Either way, I don't make distinctions between anime and manga. All follow the story Toriyama created from scratch, so they are canon.

https://x.com/Herms98/status/1057911567927271424

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/drago ... t=original

https://imgur.com/y0qQYrk

The DBS Anime is not referenced at all. It's clear that until Daima DBS Manga is the true sequel to the DB manga. Daima is SUPPOSED to be in-between DB and DBS. But obviously that creates some issues as of rn.

The DBS Anime is not referenced at all.

So, why are you assuming it's not meant to be canon? One doesn't exclude the other...

Either way, all of these distinctions are superfluous. Toyotaro clearly has no problem with the anime since one of the back covers he made for the manga was Spirit Sword Trunks.

[QuakingStar]

Yet that version of Trunks was not in the Manga. Two difference continuities. The Anime is not what they referred to as the "True Story". The Manga was.

[SupremeKai25]

Yet that version of Trunks was not in the Manga. Two difference continuities. The Anime is not what they referred to as the "True Story". The Manga was.

Uhm, yes, they are two different continuities. I literally said that there's a distinction between "canon" and "continuity". The anime and manga can't be in the same continuity. But since the anime adapts Toriyama's story, it is canon by default.

They said that the manga is the true story. That doesn't mean the anime also isn't the true story. One does not exclude the other.

[QuakingStar]

Yet that version of Trunks was not in the Manga. Two difference continuities. The Anime is not what they referred to as the "True Story". The Manga was.

Uhm, yes, they are two different continuities. I literally said that there's a distinction between "canon" and "continuity". The anime and manga can't be in the same continuity. But since the anime adapts Toriyama's story, it is canon by default.

They said that the manga is the true story. That doesn't mean the anime also isn't the true story. One does not exclude the other.

The Anime was started first. The Anime and Manga were both made using outlines that were given to them by Toriyama. The Anime did not adapt the DBS Manga. The Manga was referred to as the True Story, not the anime. You not liking that means jack shit. You'll get over it.

[SupremeKai25]

Yet that version of Trunks was not in the Manga. Two difference continuities. The Anime is not what they referred to as the "True Story". The Manga was.

Uhm, yes, they are two different continuities. I literally said that there's a distinction between "canon" and "continuity". The anime and manga can't be in the same continuity. But since the anime adapts Toriyama's story, it is canon by default.

They said that the manga is the true story. That doesn't mean the anime also isn't the true story. One does not exclude the other.

The Anime was started first. The Anime and Manga were both made using outlines that were given to them by Toriyama. The Anime did not adapt the DBS Manga. The Manga was referred to as the True Story, not the anime. You not liking that means jack shit. You'll get over it.

1) I didn't say I dislike the manga. Don't put words in my mouth.

2) This is the last time I'm going to say it as I don't like repeating myself: the manga being referred to as the "true story" does not preclude the anime from holding the same status. That's not mutually exclusive. I've made my point.

[QuakingStar]

Uhm, yes, they are two different continuities. I literally said that there's a distinction between "canon" and "continuity". The anime and manga can't be in the same continuity. But since the anime adapts Toriyama's story, it is canon by default.

They said that the manga is the true story. That doesn't mean the anime also isn't the true story. One does not exclude the other.

The Anime was started first. The Anime and Manga were both made using outlines that were given to them by Toriyama. The Anime did not adapt the DBS Manga. The Manga was referred to as the True Story, not the anime. You not liking that means jack shit. You'll get over it.

1) I didn't say I dislike the manga. Don't put words in my mouth.

2) This is the last time I'm going to say it as I don't like repeating myself: the manga being referred to as the "true story" does not preclude the anime from holding the same status. That's not mutually exclusive. I've made my point.

I don't give a fuck if you want to repeat yourself or not. The Manga is referred to as the True Story, not the anime. Go cry to somebody else about it.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I find it odd that the manga was referred to as the "true" story when it's the anime that gets all the marketing, is in all the games, and is what all the merchandise is based off of. We can't even get an official Moro T-Shirt and he's been around since 2018.

[kemuri07]

sigh. This is canon bullshit is and will remain so dumb. So goddamned dumb.

Anyways, finally finished Ep20. And I pretty much stick to my general feelings of the show at large: It was a cute ending to a cute show. A 7.5/10. Because not everything needs to be 10/10s; I enjoyed Daima for what it was: a saturday morning cartoon.

First half was fun spectacle "Super Saiyan goes brrrrrrr"stuff that this franchise can still pull of every now and then, but the real gem was the second half and I think this is where this episode truly shine. There has been a lot of stuff about the pacing and storytelling featured in Daima, but I think the things they got right were the character interactions, and they were all fun. Sure they could have all had more complicated plot backgrounds to have their final moments be emotionally impactful, but I also think you don't always need that. Sometimes it's enough to have some fun characters, and pretty much all of the character beats worked as intended. I really hope we get to see some of these characters again in future DB projects.

All in all, I had a fun time with Daima. And I imagine that, much like with Super(ugh) and GT, time will be kind to it and I think people will be more favorable to it.

[QuakingStar]

I find it odd that the manga was referred to as the "true" story when it's the anime that gets all the marketing, is in all the games, and is what all the merchandise is based off of. We can't even get an official Moro T-Shirt and he's been around since 2018.

Tell me about it. I like some of the things they did in the Anime better, and some in the Manga better. I think doing two seperate things from the start was stupid and now that lawsuit has them in a deadlock. Regardless, Daima's addition and success may change some things, or maybe not. We will see how it all unfolds when the limbo is over.