Did Toriyama's passing change the latter half of Daima?

[supershonen]

Will we ever get to know how much of daima was pre and post tori passing away?

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

Not as long as it's fresh; maybe in a decade or two someone will state something about what really took place behind the scenes.
But knowing what Toriyama gave us between Battle of Gods to 2024 when DBS' Manga Chapter 103 came out, it's likely that the flawed product we got is his doing.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Knowing what Toriyama gave us between Battle of Gods to 2024 when DBS' Manga Chapter 103 came out, it's likely that the flawed product we got is his doing.

Daima's scripts and the overall outline were completed before his passing, so what we got was basically his final draft of the story.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I agree with the others saying that he most likely completed the entire draft for the story BUT, I was also wondering if the finale was 100% Toriyama or not based on how disjointed it felt. Neva unlocking ssj4 then goku saying he had it all along do feel like they weren't part of the same story outline.

We know for sure that Akio Yoku had an influence, ssj4 is in daima most likely because he wanted to include it, not toriyama. We also have to consider that there's multiple writers for this show, directors, so while we know the story draft was done by Toriyama (even though it was an already existing project before he came on), we don't exactly know how much, 80%? 95%?70%? And how much of it is reflected in the story? Clearly a lot of it, but the exact number is unsure.

Another important element: this show's story still wasn't finished by the time production started. According to Akio's interviews, the style for storywriting resembled the weekly manga formula (this also explains a lot about the pacing of the show) so who knows, maybe there is a chance that toriyama worked on 99% of it but didn't make it to the very final episode. But who knows really, for normal shows the story is all already written in advance so this is a bit of a unique case

[FinalForumPodcast]

I don't think we'll ever COMPLETELY know, but kneejerk is "Nah, not really"

Not in the way most people are THINKING.

It's not like Suddenly there were NO scripts or stories or anything. It takes too long to complete a show for that to have happened.

But, we also have learned more and more that Toriyama's health was not great in the lead-up to his passing, and he had confided in close friends that he was ailing and was undergoing surgery, so it's entirely possible that he as a human being ran out of steam a little bit and found working on the final episodes more taxing than at the start....we'll never know that though.

I agree with the others saying that he most likely completed the entire draft for the story BUT, I was also wondering if the finale was 100% Toriyama or not based on how disjointed it felt...We know for sure that Akio Yoku had an influence, ssj4 is in daima most likely because he wanted to include it, not toriyama. We also have to consider that there's multiple writers for this show, directors, so while we know the story draft was done by Toriyama (even though it was an already existing project before he came on), we don't exactly know how much...Another important element: this show's story still wasn't finished by the time production started.

Also all of this.

Especially the bit about the story not being finished when production started. That's a general red flag. It helps explain a lot of Daima's pacing issues, and though nobody from Toei will ever admit to anything, there were a BUNCH of times that I and others (listen to any podcast covering Daima, watch any YouTube video, read these threads) said: "For something supposedly from the mind of Toriyama, [this part] didn't feel like Toriyama"...knowing the story wasn't finished as they were producing the show feels like it helps to explain that "Ah. This part was done by the team before they had Toriyama's story/script. It didn't CLASH with anything he wrote, so they left it in, but it doesn't feel like TORIYAMA."


Who knows if we'll ever know ANY of this stuff in any more clarity than we currently do though? General audiences still don't know that Gareth Edwards was shoved to the background of making Rogue One in its final weeks and Tony Gilroy rewrote and reworked the script in some last-minute rewrites and was extensively involved in the reshoots....
...AND on top of that (in parallel with Daima) everyone officially involved in the movie refuses to admit to anything explicitly. Probably because there are NDAs in place for now.

[Mr Baggins]

Another important element: this show's story still wasn't finished by the time production started.

I think this is being overblown, actually.

It's crucial that we remember Daima started production quite a while before Toriyama's death. All this means is that they were still writing later parts of the show, maybe even the final parts, when they decided to start animating the beginning. I don't see it as some "red flag" or an indication of "pacing issues" that I still don't think Daima even had for the most part, but rather an admission that they wanted to go ahead and start working on it before they wrapped up those last bits of screenplay.

That's not to say they couldn't have jumped the gun on some elements, though. The fusion bug is the first thing that comes to mind here because it was mentioned in an early episode and never brought up again. So perhaps it's an indication of occasional unfired chekhov's guns left on the cutting room floor, if anything.

[supershonen]

yeah i think story was finished way before toriyama passed and i think even if toriyama left midway the staff and people involved are talented enough to save the grace.

[SelfTrainedNamekian]

i have no doubts that ssj4 was not in the original plans and was changed from the fusion. the fusion bugs could have been a 3- being fusion. the fact that they presented this idea only to ditch it compleatly shows it. ssj 4 was nothing but a fan service to break the internet

[VegettoEX]

the fusion bugs could have been a 3- being fusion.

In the very same scene that the Join Bugs are introduced, dialogue explicitly tells us that when you split it in half (半分) it's for merging two people (二人) together-

https://imgur.com/a/KXcZXQ0

While, yes, it was an absolutely bizarre red herring, I don't necessarily buy that Super Saiyan 4 was a last-minute replacement for that idea. We know from the start that they were looking to the spirit of Dragon Ball GT in developing this show, and with that and Nakatsuru on staff for character designs... well, yeah, Super Saiyan 4 it is.

[Saiya6Cit]

I don't think so. Daima was pretty much completed by the time of his passing. I am not saiying that his mind was affected by all the demanding work that being the creator of an animated show produces. Not at all.


Bringing the SSJ4 back seems indeed like they were trying to make it up for GT, since that show gets so much hate, but who knows.

[BernardoCairo]

When Toriyama passed away, Daima was already well into production. Yeah, things like Join Bugs are weird. But I think they just used them to play with our expectations.

[funrush]

I don't think so. Daima was pretty much completed by the time of his passing. I am not saiying that his mind was affected by all the demanding work that being the creator of an animated show produces. Not at all.


Bringing the SSJ4 back seems indeed like they were trying to make it up for GT, since that show gets so much hate, but who knows.

I don't even think it's about if GT has haters or not. We know that Toriyama was interested in taking ideas from the stuff that he did the designs for but maybe didn't consider "his" and putting it into his own work. Fusion Reborn happened and from that we got Vegito in the Buu Saga cause Toriyama also wanted to do a fusion but not just rip Gogeta from Fusion Reborn. But then eventually we got Gogeta himself in the Broly movie. Speaking of Broly, that was another case of him taking an idea from something he didn't write and making it his own.

So I think that Daima is an extension of that, it's basically him doing his own GT. Turning everyone into kids is from Black Star Dragon Ball arc but he makes it his own by extending it to the whole cast. And then his version of Super Saiyan 4 has nothing to do with Blutz Waves or anything like that, it's just the next step of Super Saiyan 3.

[Trouser]

I guess so. Super Saiyan 4 felt forced. Two times. I know that GT was Daima's older brother but nothing feels as much out of place as Daima's Super Saiyan 4. It just doesn't make any sense. No build up. No lore. It just happened. Like a fart. But I guess even fart needs something specific to be born... Super Saiyan 4 in Daima felt like an afterthought of "Toriyama is gone, the script is not finished, what are going to do now?".

Even Super Saiyan 3's transformation (the one without a shirt) wasn't a Toriyama's idea. He just created an image of base Goku without a shirt and SOMEONE ELSE came up with the idea of using it during Goku's transformation.

People are easily fooled into thinking that Toriyama wrote everything (post OG manga) when it's just not true.

[funrush]

But surely Toriyama did the design for Daima SS4 right? I don't think I've seen any concept art of it but I would be pretty surprised if that was some sort of last minute invention by the staff. Especially since Daima had been in the making for at least a few years so surely the broad strokes of the story if not the scripts themselves would have been finalized by the time Toriyama died. Although I acknowledge I'm doing some assuming here.

I think it shows up the way it does as a fun surprise for the fans. And what we're told about it kind of fits with what we know about Goku. I've seen speculation that Neva "unlocked" SS4 but I got the impression that Goku learned it offscreen between the Buu arc and Daima and purposely did not use it because he wanted to challenge himself and maybe not make Vegeta feel embarrassed during the adventure. Goku doesn't tell Vegeta about Super Saiyan 3 when he comes back for the tournament so this kind of fits with that. Why he didn't go tell Vegeta when he discovered the form I couldn't tell you LOL. But when Neva restored his ki it came out and so he took the gloves off (or the weighted clothing since we're talking DB haha) and kept using the form for the rest of the fight. Super Saiyan 4 was a secret Goku was keeping not only from Vegeta but also in a way he was keeping it from us the audience, so we got to be surprised along with Vegeta. None of this strikes me as "not Toriyama" but I of course could be wrong.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think Toriyama's passing prevented changes in Daima. He was overseeing the whole thing, but his death meant no one could stop Toei from Toeing the final episodes.

[JulieYBM]

I think Toriyama's passing prevented changes in Daima. He was overseeing the whole thing, but his death meant no one could stop Toei from Toeing the final episodes.

Hardly. The final fight of Daima suffers from the same problem that Fukkatsu no F suffers from: there's no character writing going on and the director isn't putting their own spin on the material to give it some kind of meaning.

It's too Toriyama-esque, that's why Daima and Fukkatsu no F were so bad.

[BernardoCairo]

I wouldn’t really call it simply “Toriyama-esque,” since the manga he wrote doesn’t suffer from this at all and usually gives plenty of character focus even during big fights. It might be something he dealt with in a few of his later projects, but I don’t see it as a defining trait of his writing. I also don’t blame anyone for associating it with Toei, especially after what they did with things like the horrible Z movies and Super Dragon Ball Heroes, even if I agree that’s probably not what actually happened.

[JulieYBM]

I wouldn’t really call it simply “Toriyama-esque,” since the manga he wrote doesn’t suffer from this at all and usually gives plenty of character focus even during big fights. It might be something he dealt with in a few of his later projects, but I don’t see it as a defining trait of his writing. I also don’t blame anyone for associating it with Toei, especially after what they did with things like the horrible Z movies and Super Dragon Ball Heroes, even if I agree that’s probably not what actually happened.

We've seen the script for Fukkatsu no F, so we know that he actually doesn't include smaller details like he would during the original comic's publication. The staff at Toei Animation tend to no deviate too much from the script to play it safe and not contradict Toriyama.

The one time we know that the staff asked Toriyama if they could alter details of the script was asking to make it rain during Gohan's fight in Super Hero. They should always be going further than that, but Toriyama's also the kind of guy who doesn't like his stories having meaning, so I can imagine he might disapprove of that, unfortunately.

[Mr Baggins]

Daima has Toriyama written all over it even up until the very end. I don't know how anyone can watch the final episode (or even episode 19, which has maybe the best Vegeta gag in DB history) and not immediately come to this conclusion. His scripting is ever present, including in the conclusion and post-credits scene.

Not that you need to take my word for it, since plenty of interviews already spell this out. Iyoku was clear that, just like the modern movies, there's very little in Daima that didn't come straight from the man himself. I suspect people are thrown off because it's a little different than your standard Super fare, but... that's exactly what was implied to draw in his investment.

Love it or hate it, Daima as a finalized series is absolutely a Toriyama project.

[super michael]

Daima has Toriyama written all over it even up until the very end. I don't know how anyone can watch the final episode (or even episode 19, which has maybe the best Vegeta gag in DB history) and not immediately come to this conclusion. His scripting is ever present, including in the conclusion and post-credits scene.

Not that you need to take my word for it, since plenty of interviews already spell this out. Iyoku was clear that, just like the modern movies, there's very little in Daima that didn't come straight from the man himself. I suspect people are thrown off because it's a little different than your standard Super fare, but... that's exactly what was implied to draw in his investment.

Love it or hate it, Daima as a finalized series is absolutely a Toriyama project.

I enjoyed watching Dragon Ball Daima, I enjoy the adventure in Demon World and the new characters introduced. I like they focused a lot on magic and magical items. Seeing both Goku and Vegeta gain new transformation from training, that was good and seeing everyone fight against Gomah in a tag team.

It was good that getting the Demon World Dragon Ball wasn't just finding them, but there was a trial. First was beating the Tamagami and then whatever challenge they come up with.