Scsigs wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:13 am
tonysoprano300 wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 11:26 pm
Sure, I'm not saying EOZ is bad or tonally inconsistent.There is a lot to like about it, but it just doesn’t feel like an ending to me. In a weird way, it feels like it’s setting up another adventure. Like its so much easier to continue past EOZ without significantly changing the status quo whereas it would be much harder to do that with GT’s ending. Its just a preference but to me I prefer “Goku and friends have left a legacy, their influence will be felt long after they are gone” to “Goku and friends will always be ready and excited for the next adventure”
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that a Hero’s Legacy came out after GT. I was more so making a point about subsequent DB material would have to be of that same ilk, a story where Goku and friends are no longer the focal point.
I think whatever happened with Shenron and Goku is left intentionally ambiguous, I don’t think Goku died but I also don’t think he was alive in the traditional sense. Personally I like it, it’s mystical and arguably nonsensical but totally cathartic. Maybe I'm just a sucker for ambiguity. Oddly spiritual for sure
I mean, I prefer a tonally-consistent ending that's in-keeping with the spirit of the series than one that's kinda confusing & a bit of a downer. And, I don't think that it's the start of a new adventure. It's just kinda business as usual. I'll agree that without the Uub stuff the ending of Z would feel a bit better like the ending of GT does for you, but it's the ending Toriyama chose. He left the characters in a good spot & it doesn't feel like there's any stones left unturned from what was in the story at the time. We followed Goku through 20+ years of his life, his friends, his family, explored the world, & even went to space & the afterlife. It's a complete journey with its ups & downs from start to finish.
GT's ending feels less like we went on a journey with the characters, so much as they knew the writing was on the wall for the series & came up with it to wrap the series up, IMO. It has a LOT in common with Z's ending. It's just that it plays certain elements differently & drops others. It's like the GT writers thought they could do certain aspects of Z's ending better. And, I think that some people like GT's ending better than Z's because of the anime adaptation. From what I remember from the end of MistareFusion's retrospective on the Z anime, the anime cut a lot of the diegetic elements from the manga, partly because GT had been greenlit by Toei by then & they knew that the next week, they'd be airing a new series that takes place years after it, so they didn't need to. Why put diegetic elements in the ending of a series if you're gonna have a new sequel series out the next week? For the anime, it's
not the end yet. Meanwhile, the manga had a shot of all the characters with text saying "The end," a letter from Toriyama thanking everyone who read the manga for doing so, & other things. Now, some of these would probably be tough to adapt into the anime, but that's how it is. GT's ending DOES have diegetic elements, though, because they knew it was definitely the end. At least for then. Franchise fatigue, Toriyama moving on, & diminishing returns set in with GT. It's like what happened with Star Trek almost a decade later, so they gave the series a proper sendoff.
I mean, it's possible to make a Dragon Ball series with different protagonists, but that's not the only direction they could go in. It'd also have a completely different feel from the older stuff since you'd have to have different characters to contrast the previous ones. It'd also be a tough sell if it doesn't make a good first impression. Not that they can't do it, but they'd have to be careful.
I mean, that was my point. It IS intentionally ambiguous. It also doesn't make any sense no matter how you slice it because of that. If Goku somehow died, it doesn't make sense for the reasons I stated before. If he didn't, it doesn't make much sense how he's suddenly invulnerable to Omega's attacks. Sometimes leaving something ambiguous can work for letting the audience interpret something as they will & generate discussion over the piece of media. However, if said piece of media doesn't give you enough to go on, then anyone can interpret any reason for whatever happens to have happened. As such, some people have interpreted as what happened to Goku dying while fighting. However, that also can't be what happened because of how death generally works in Dragon Ball. Unless they were already in Other World, or the Land of the Kais, Goku shouldn't have stayed on Earth if that were the case. I personally think they just hit the episode count & couldn't think of a better way to resolve the fight in time, so they did something that didn't make sense & just gave Goku super armor when he shouldn't have had any. As much umbrage as people could take with the Namekian Dragon Balls healing Goku & bringing his ki back to normal, at least it's something that sticks within the logic of the series and hadn't happened before in the story. At least, that's how I see it.
FWIW, I didn't get the sense that GT's ending was totally inconsistent. I think its ultimately a reference back to early DB material where Goku's generation of martial artists have been trusted with upholding the torch given to them by the previous generation, and GT's ending feels like a showcase of how Goku's generation has left a long-lasting impact that will go on to inspire the next. It's somewhat of a downer in the sense that everything has finally come to an end, but it's simultaneously moving because of the legacy they have left behind, and how we're seeing the spirit of Dragon Ball live on through each generation that comes along, which is ultimately what Muten Roshi envisioned in the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament. I'm not going to say that the circumstances revolving around Goku's departure make logical sense because we're not really given an explanation; maybe that is bad writing I dont necessarily even disagree. Its just one of those things where what it led to was so moving that I was sort of able to just not care, I guess. I'm fairly aligned with the interpretation of Atsushi Maekawa
Where did Goku go on Shenlong’s back at the very end?
To be honest, in GT episode 63, just before the final episode, a big change comes over Goku. Those who watched carefully might have noticed, but… In that episode, Goku, who takes Yi Xing Long‘s attack, sinks to the bottom of a deep hole. That is the turning point. Afterward, Goku still continues the battle, but what’s different from before is that he’s cloaked in an aura that won’t let any attack near him.
It might be that he died there, or it might be that he became something else entirely. I’ll leave that decision to the imaginations of everyone who watched. However, the Goku up to that point that everyone knows clearly does not appear after that.
In the world of Dragon Ball, Goku had already died multiple times, and up till then, each time he appeared with a halo over his head. However, I didn’t want to go with the usual concept of, “even when he dies, he comes right back to life”. I wanted the viewers to picture “death” in that way, and feel a sadness close to it in reality. So I had a “change” come over Goku.
And then after that, once he defeats Yi Xing Long and grants the final wish, Goku goes right off with Shenlong and the Dragon Balls, to somewhere that people definitely can’t get to. While wishing that people will be able to get by on their own strength in a world without the Dragon Balls. And Vegeta is the only one who notices where he’s headed.
Except, I personally go ahead and imagine… that Goku might unexpectedly show up, just at Chi-Chi’s, from time to time. Yes, unexpectedly….
Not to say that makes it ok but to be fair, DB even under Toriyama's watch is no stranger to that.
I am referring to the manga ending specifically; I havent actually seen the anime version in quite a while. I think even though we get the title cards signifying the end and Toriyama's farewell message, you still get the feeling that the same status quo of DB could continue. Like there is no diegetic reason as to why it couldn't. Whereas for any hypothetical DB content continuing past GT's ending, I feel like at the very least it would be something totally different. They left the series in such a spot where trying to continue on with the status quo would feel so unnatural and almost antithetical to the ending we just saw. With EOZ, you could just very well keep going and nobody would question it. I do think endings are better when they are felt emotionally, where you just know its the end without someone having to tell you.
I do wholeheartedly agree that GT as a standalone series did not warrant that type of an ending; I think the ending only works when incorporating DB as a whole. For me personally, I always saw it as an ending to DB as a whole or at the very least Goku's chapter in DB but you're absolutely right that this ending could arguably be placed in the middle of GT and nothing would change lol.
