Daizenshuu 2 implies SPC is stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan

[Geridos]

Some of you might remember this line from the Daizenshuu 2's Final Battles section, translated by none other than the man Herms himself:

Spoiler:

Cell was not dead. Having been revived into his perfect-form and even acquiring Shunkan-ido, Cell had reached his strongest existence.

For a long time, this statement was used to merely prove Buff Cell was weaker than Super Perfect Cell whenever the subject came up and people felt like scrutinizing the dialogue, and things were kept at that. Nothing else to see there, people thought...

Or maybe there was.

It turns out that this statement had actually been mistranslated all along.

Spoiler:

セルは死んではいなかった。完全 体として再生し、瞬間移動まで身 につけ、最強の存在となっていた。

The right translation would be like this:

Cell wasn't dead. [Having been] resurrected in a perfect body and having learned the Shunkan-Ido, he became the strongest being.

_{or had become}

And well, I think that speaks for itself.

If there's any doubt on the legitimacy of this reading, here is something rather amusing I found while browsing the internet: a[link name= 2005 forum post, many years before Herms' translations, where two native Japanese fans are engaging in this exact debate]https://anime2.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/cs ... 790766/l50[/link], and one of them cites this Daizenshuu passage to prove a point:

Spoiler:

Ｐセル＞超２少年悟飯
セルの完全体は頭脳もパーフェクトな存在になるとコンピューターが言っており、
そのセルが悟飯にフルボッコされ、超２悟飯の強さを認識した上で意気揚々として帰ってきている。
互いに勝つ気満々だが悟飯の予想は外れ、想定外の大ダメージを負う。実力が拮抗している場合、
一撃であそこまでダメージを受けるのは不意を突かれた時ぐらいだが、悟飯はセルの攻撃を認識していた。
このことから戦闘力自体がＰセル＞悟飯
さらに大全集では「（復活セルは）最強の存在となっていた」や「絶望的な逆転劇」とある。

言いたいことは　≧じゃなくて＞って事

Perfect Cell > Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

The Supercomputer states that Cell would have a perfect brain, too. Cell is fully beaten up by Gohan, and yet he comes back completely ecstatic, despite knowing how powerful Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is.

Both sides believe they can win, but Gohan's assumptions are proven wrong and he takes heavy amounts of damage. The only way an attack could do such damage would be if it caught him by surprise, but Gohan was fully aware of Cell's attack.

From this feat, P. Cell's battle power > Gohan's.

Furthermore, in the Daizenshuu, it is stated that "Cell had become the strongest being" and that a "reversal play" had taken place.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not an equal match, Cell is stronger.

Funnily enough, this isn't the only Japanese debate you can find where a native-speaking fan who owns the Daizenshuu quotes this passage and backs up the aforementioned translation's legitimacy. [link name=From yet another forum:]https://mixi.jp/view_bbs.pl?comm_id=560&id=3606948[/link]

Spoiler:

Fan 1:

＞前にも書いたように設定上パーフェクトセル≧悟飯です。

何処にそのような設定が書かれているのでしょうか？

アニメでその様な発言が、デンデからなされた事は知っていますが
原作に、Ｐセル＞悟飯を暗示する台詞は一切ありません。
しかも、描写で否定されてますよね？これって

ソースを提示しないで、「設定」といわれても、粗雑で偏重な意見としか思えません。

Fan 2:

＞ムラタメさん

大全集には、セルは最強の存在となっていた、DVDブックレット
には、悟飯と互角かそれ以上、と記されています。

Fan 1:

＞As I've said before, the setup is Perfect Cell > Gohan.

Where is such a setup established?

I know that Dende made such statements in the anime, but nowhere in the original manga is is it implied that Cell > Gohan. And it's denied in the description.

If you don't provide sources for your 'setups', it makes your opinion seem crude and biased.

Fan 2 (Response):

The Daizenshuu states Cell had become the strongest being, and the DVD booklet calls him 'equal to or stronger than Gohan'.

In summary: there was a Daizenshuu statement everyone missed, Herms translated it inaccurately, and a half-dozen Japanese sources agree that the correct translation is the one quoted above. Lots of people believe other guidebooks to be far less reliable than the Daizenshuu, hence their skepticism, so I expect this to make something of an impact.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This may have been talking about Cell compared to an injured Ssj2 Gohan was was at 50% strength.

[Geridos]

This may have been talking about Cell compared to an injured Ssj2 Gohan was was at 50% strength.

Dude, have you read the OP?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This may have been talking about Cell compared to an injured Ssj2 Gohan was was at 50% strength.

Dude, have you read the OP?

I read it, and I stand by what I said. Cell was indeed stronger than an injured Gohan, but even then he still couldn't defeat him as he was able to temporarily tap into his full power thanks to Goku's words. If he wasn't strong enough to defeat an injured Gohan, how on earth to you justify saying he's stronger than Gohan was before saving Vegeta ?

[Geridos]

This may have been talking about Cell compared to an injured Ssj2 Gohan was was at 50% strength.

Dude, have you read the OP?

I read it, and I stand by what I said. Cell was indeed stronger than an injured Gohan, but even then he still couldn't defeat him as he was able to temporarily tap into his full power thanks to Goku's words. If he wasn't strong enough to defeat an injured Gohan, how on earth to you justify saying he's stronger than Gohan was before saving Vegeta ?

It says Cell had become the STRONGEST BEING. That was after Gohan transformed into SSjin 2. It literally says that SSjin 2 Gohan < SPC.

[The Monkey King]

Putting so much stock into hyperbolic guidebook statements is weird when the primary source material shows you exactly what happened.

Super Perfect Cell was too weak to overpower or survive Gohan's Kamehameha which eviscerated him completely.

SSJ2 Gohan > SPC

"B-but Cell's ki blast hurt Gohan!"

True, but he was in no position to brace himself for the attack, meanwhile SPC had to brace himself to tank Vegeta's ki blast, hell a ki blast from an exhausted base Vegeta was enough to make an impact on Cell's head.

The fact that Toriyama felt he had to cripple Gohan to make their rematch dramatic makes it clear that Gohan was simply stronger than Cell.

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”

Cell got atomised by a Gohan who was at less than half of his maximum strength, if you think Cell was stronger you're deluded.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I still can't believe some people take statements from these guide books seriously.

As far as I'm concerned they're not accurate or trustworthy at all. The best thing to do is to just read the manga and come to your own conclusions using your own logic and deductive reasoning because it's the same thing that the writers of these guidebooks did since toriyama had 0 hands in them, so why trust someone else's interpretation of the story instead of your own?

[BernardoCairo]

Gohan overpowered Super Perfect Cell's greatest attack with one arm while tired and injured (and no, Vegeta didn't help). The manga itself is telling who is the strongest.

[MasenkoHA]

I still can't believe some people take statements from these guide books seriously.

As far as I'm concerned they're not accurate or trustworthy at all. The best thing to do is to just read the manga and come to your own conclusions using your own logic and deductive reasoning because it's the same thing that the writers of these guidebooks did since toriyama had 0 hands in them, so why trust someone else's interpretation of the story instead of your own?

Honestly this so much this. I’ve long since felt the fandom has overly relied on the Daizenshuu as some sort of holy text as if Toriyama wrote them himself, when they’re really just officially sanctioned fan made guidebooks. They’re a useful resource for interviews but their interpretation of which character is stronger based on vague information and timeline placement of the out of continuity movies is no more valid than any other fan’s interpretation.

Like idk Gohan won their fight and killed Cell with a broken arm.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku explicitly told Gohan to strike with an all-out Kamehameha, meaning he believed Gohan could still muster more power than what he initially thought. Gohan himself said his ki was “less than half”, but that doesn’t necessarily mean his final push was only at 50% power.

The sequence clearly shows that Cell was pushing Gohan back at first, meaning the tide only turned because Goku encouraged Gohan to give it everything, and that’s when Gohan overpowered Cell.

So the proper scaling would be:
All-out SS2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Weakened SS2 Gohan

[Koitsukai]

The stock people put in all of these NON-TORIYAMA WRITTEN MATERIALS is baffling to me. Like it has already been pointed out: an injured Gohan destroyed Cell. What else do we need? why would some writing in japanese make one thing otherwise?

There's plenty of things that don't make sense or straight out contradict the original manga in those magazines. Shit, GT Perfect Files is considered a GT bible of sorts and it seems like it's about a different show.

I would, hands-down, prioritize the opinion of any other user here over those magazines. At least, users here support their claims instead of "now Cell is the strongest ever". They are probably good-looking magazines that might make one worship them, I probably would, but the truth lies in the manga, not in there.

[Yuji]

A guidebook could write that Nappa is stronger than Boo and people would believe it.

[Zephyr]

I don't really care about how Cell stacks up against Gohan, but when it comes to Gohan saying "even my ki is already less than half…", an interesting thing to consider is Toriyama's SEG explanation of ki:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

One's headspace seems to impact the size of one's ki, and Gohan was extremely demoralized when Goku chimed in to give his pep talk. From this, you could easily interpret Gohan's ki as no longer being "less than half" once his head is back in the game and he stops holding back. Again, no horse in this race, but food for thought that possibly makes the conversation more interesting than "Gohan's mana bar was at 49% so he could not cast his biggest fireball spell".

[jjgp1112]

I still can't believe some people take statements from these guide books seriously.

As far as I'm concerned they're not accurate or trustworthy at all. The best thing to do is to just read the manga and come to your own conclusions using your own logic and deductive reasoning because it's the same thing that the writers of these guidebooks did since toriyama had 0 hands in them, so why trust someone else's interpretation of the story instead of your own?

Right - people have to remember that guidebooks are promotional material, not some academic encyclopedia

And shit, even Toriyama himself would change tidbits on a whim based on whatever explanation he thought was coolest at the time. He's retconned Buu's origin TWICE

Putting so much stock into hyperbolic guidebook statements is weird when the primary source material shows you exactly what happened.

Super Perfect Cell was too weak to overpower or survive Gohan's Kamehameha which eviscerated him completely.

SSJ2 Gohan > SPC

"B-but Cell's ki blast hurt Gohan!"

True, but he was in no position to brace himself for the attack, meanwhile SPC had to brace himself to tank Vegeta's ki blast, hell a ki blast from an exhausted base Vegeta was enough to make an impact on Cell's head.

Yup, and even if Gohan not bracing himself wasn't the case...it's that card game logic rearing it's ugly head again to think Cell's blast couldn't still injure Gohan even though he was slightly weaker

[Kaboom]

Gohan won in the end not because his half-power was still greater than Cell's full-power, but because he managed to briefly summon his own power back, plus probably some extra, in the clutch to still overcome him anyway. Because that's how climactic shonen battle manga finales work. I know the trend in this thread is "who even believes those silly guidebooks" but the Daizenshuu also label Gohan's last burst in their duel as "his greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha in history," neither of which jives with the idea that that he was stuck at only half-power for the duration.

Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with "Super Perfect" Cell ending up stronger than Gohan, even if only by a little bit. If anything it actually helps the story by making Cell a real, genuine threat again for the final showdown. What's really harder to believe and hurts the narrative more — That Gohan could have a big heroic moment where he pushed past his injury and drew out extra power to defeat the badguy that had become stronger than him? Or that Cell could make three big power-ups of his own and still not even measure up to half of SS2 Gohan's power?

And for another narrative point, just imagine how weirdly circular the storytelling logic would be if injured half-power Gohan really was still stronger than Cell. So Cell is suddenly confident again despite learning up-close how strong SS2 Gohan is and only packing half as much power... but he's still able to grievously injure Gohan anyway, off-guard or not... but despite being so badly injured Gohan is still stronger than Cell... but despite still being stronger than Cell, he decides it's pointless and is about to let Cell kill him and everyone else... and then even when he does decide to fight back, he's still losing at first anyway?

Nah, does not compute. Cell being at least back on Gohan's general level is what checks all the storytelling boxes here.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Gohan won in the end not because his half-power was still greater than Cell's full-power, but because he managed to briefly summon his own power back, plus probably some extra, in the clutch to still overcome him anyway. Because that's how climactic shonen battle manga finales work. I know the trend in this thread is "who even believes those silly guidebooks" but the Daizenshuu also label Gohan's last burst in their duel as "his greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha in history," neither of which jives with the idea that that he was stuck at only half-power for the duration.

Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with "Super Perfect" Cell ending up stronger than Gohan, even if only by a little bit. If anything it actually helps the story by making Cell a real, genuine threat again for the final showdown. What's really harder to believe and hurts the narrative more — That Gohan could have a big heroic moment where he pushed past his injury and drew out extra power to defeat the badguy that had become stronger than him? Or that Cell could make three big power-ups of his own and still not even measure up to half of SS2 Gohan's power?

And for another narrative point, just imagine how weirdly circular the storytelling logic would be if injured half-power Gohan really was still stronger than Cell. So Cell is suddenly confident again despite learning up-close how strong SS2 Gohan is and only packing half as much power... but he's still able to grievously injure Gohan anyway, off-guard or not... but despite being so badly injured Gohan is still stronger than Cell... but despite still being stronger than Cell, he decides it's pointless and is about to let Cell kill him and everyone else... and then even when he does decide to fight back, he's still losing at first anyway?

Nah, does not compute. Cell being at least back on Gohan's general level is what checks all the storytelling boxes here.

Gohan's power has always been dependent on his emotional state. With his father dead because of his own arrogance, I don't think it's hard at all to imagine that grief and regret over his mistake would be the dominant emotions instead of rage, I think it computes.

Up to this point at least, Gohan has always been known to be a fighter whose true potential awakens when enraged. Since he's always been an emotional character, it makes perfect sense that he would give up momentarily once his rage subsides.

In that final showdown the threat is hinging more on Gohan's will to fight wavering rather than Cell's power itself. While yeah I do think the zenkai boost brought him closer to Gohan's level, he doesn't need to be even stronger than Gohan in order to make the showdown feel intense, Gohan's own struggle with himself is more than enough to carry that alone. I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly, but in short what I mean is, I don't think the fight needs the "and now he draws out even MORE power and becomes even MORE powerful than cell once again", him gaining back confidence in himself is what makes that scene imo, not the constant one-upping of each other's power.

[jjgp1112]

Gohan won in the end not because his half-power was still greater than Cell's full-power, but because he managed to briefly summon his own power back, plus probably some extra, in the clutch to still overcome him anyway. Because that's how climactic shonen battle manga finales work. I know the trend in this thread is "who even believes those silly guidebooks" but the Daizenshuu also label Gohan's last burst in their duel as "his greatest power" and "the strongest Kamehameha in history," neither of which jives with the idea that that he was stuck at only half-power for the duration.

Honestly, there's really nothing wrong with "Super Perfect" Cell ending up stronger than Gohan, even if only by a little bit. If anything it actually helps the story by making Cell a real, genuine threat again for the final showdown. What's really harder to believe and hurts the narrative more — That Gohan could have a big heroic moment where he pushed past his injury and drew out extra power to defeat the badguy that had become stronger than him? Or that Cell could make three big power-ups of his own and still not even measure up to half of SS2 Gohan's power?

And for another narrative point, just imagine how weirdly circular the storytelling logic would be if injured half-power Gohan really was still stronger than Cell. So Cell is suddenly confident again despite learning up-close how strong SS2 Gohan is and only packing half as much power... but he's still able to grievously injure Gohan anyway, off-guard or not... but despite being so badly injured Gohan is still stronger than Cell... but despite still being stronger than Cell, he decides it's pointless and is about to let Cell kill him and everyone else... and then even when he does decide to fight back, he's still losing at first anyway?

Nah, does not compute. Cell being at least back on Gohan's general level is what checks all the storytelling boxes here.

Gohan's power has always been dependent on his emotional state. With his father dead because of his own arrogance, I don't think it's hard at all to imagine that grief and regret over his mistake would be the dominant emotions instead of rage, I think it computes.

Up to this point at least, Gohan has always been known to be a fighter whose true potential awakens when enraged. Since he's always been an emotional character, it makes perfect sense that he would give up momentarily once his rage subsides.

In that final showdown the threat is hinging more on Gohan's will to fight wavering rather than Cell's power itself. While yeah I do think the zenkai boost brought him closer to Gohan's level, he doesn't need to be even stronger than Gohan in order to make the showdown feel intense, Gohan's own struggle with himself is more than enough to carry that alone. I don't know if I'm explaining myself properly, but in short what I mean is, I don't think the fight needs the "and now he draws out even MORE power and becomes even MORE powerful than cell once again", him gaining back confidence in himself is what makes that scene imo, not the constant one-upping of each other's power.

Nope, you explained yourself perfectly and I 100% agree.

[funrush]

I can buy it. Yes, SS2 Gohan obliterated Cell with one arm, but look at Cell. He's got all those little electricity crackles around him. So you should think of him as SS2 Cell. SS2 Cell vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan one shotted him cause the Father Son Kamehameha is just a giant asspull I guess lol. Suddenly Trunks cutting Zamasu in half doesn't seem so crazy

[jjgp1112]

I can buy it. Yes, SS2 Gohan obliterated Cell with one arm, but look at Cell. He's got all those little electricity crackles around him. So you should think of him as SS2 Cell. SS2 Cell vs. SS2 Gohan. Gohan one shotted him cause the Father Son Kamehameha is just a giant asspull I guess lol. Suddenly Trunks cutting Zamasu in half doesn't seem so crazy

Le sigh. Goku wasn't actually contributing to the blast, it was just symbolic. The ending was just Gohan briefly releasing all of his power.

[funrush]

I already knew that and either way doesn't actually change the point I was trying to make. Toriyama just gave Gohan's final attack extra power for narrative reasons like the Super writers gave Trunks's final attack extra power for narrative reasons.

Toriyama uses the electricity crackles as a visual cue to us the audience that Cell is now on the same level as Gohan. And then Gohan just one shots him anyway because his potential for asspulls is just that insane. Between that and the Beast Gohan asspull, nobody should ever try fighting Gohan again lmao, that guy will just magically become stronger than you like the Hulk