Official confirmation Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball at the Cell Saga

[dragonballhero]

I think the cell arc ending works as the end point for Goku's story but it feels like just the beginning of Gohans story, so i dont know exactly how i feel about it as an ending DB as a whole there but I could believe that it effectively functions as Goku's end(had they decided to commit to that). Its not perfect, there a lot of things one could criticize but its at least emotionally resonant and pays off the whole thing about Goku carrying the torch forward so that he could hand it to the next generation.

At the same token, I dont necessarily believe that the buu saga functions that much better as an endpoint for DB as a whole.I've said it before but it feels like EOZ is set up in such a way where you can just continue the story and not much would be different. Despite how horrible the logic is behind Goku choosing to stay dead, I think the idea on paper is more resonant. That Goku makes a choice indicative of not his personal lust for battle but one that serves as a growth point for him, where he does it to be altruistic and honourable, serving as a transition from being a battle junkie to a wise sensei. That continuing past this point would be a different paradigm for DB.

I've always viewed the Cell arc as a conclusion to the story line of Gohan that began in the Saiyan arc, of him discovering his hidden powers and bringing them up to the surface to save the world. As for Dragon Ball as a whole, The Buu arc works for me better, as it feels like it's concluding the entire series, rather than a part of it like Cell did.

That's probably the BEST way to look at the through-line from Cell to Majin Buu. This is almost certainly just me, but did it ever feel like Gohan was set to DO anything meaningful in the Buu arc that actually furthered his character significantly, at least compared to folks like Vegeta and Mr. Satan?
It just feels like all of that got used up during the fight with Cell.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Did it ever feel like Gohan was set to DO anything meaningful in the Buu arc that actually furthered his character significantly, at least compared to folks like Vegeta and Mr. Satan?

Both Gohan and Piccolo had their story arcs wrapped up very nicely in the Cell arc. The Buu arc served to show us a different side of them; Gohan being grown up and how peace impacted him, and Piccolo being forced to train two kids who did not take hims seriously, unlike Gohan when he was a kid. Goku continued to play the mentor role he started doing in the Cell arc, which was to foster the next generation of fighters. As far as actual character development goes, that was all given to Vegeta and Mr. Satan, and even Fat Buu.

Although Toriyama's editor managed to convince him to continue the story after Cell, he only agreed to for an additional 6 months, but he ended up going for another 2 years instead. It really goes to show how much fun he was having with the arc, and the newfound freedom to write whatever he wanted.

[dragonballhero]

Did it ever feel like Gohan was set to DO anything meaningful in the Buu arc that actually furthered his character significantly, at least compared to folks like Vegeta and Mr. Satan?

Both Gohan and Piccolo had their story arcs wrapped up very nicely in the Cell arc. The Buu arc served to show us a different side of them; Gohan being grown up and how peace impacted him, and Piccolo being forced to train two kids who did not take hims seriously, unlike Gohan when he was a kid. Goku continued to play the mentor role he started doing in the Cell arc, which was to foster the next generation of fighters. As far as actual character development goes, that was all given to Vegeta and Mr. Satan, and even Fat Buu.

Although Toriyama's editor managed to convince him to continue the story after Cell, he only agreed to for an additional 6 months, but he ended up going for another 2 years instead. It really goes to show how much fun he was having with the arc, and the newfound freedom to write whatever he wanted.

Yeah, exactly! I rewatched Kai's version of the Majin Buu arc about 3 months ago (and I'm even re-reading the manga's take on those events as I speak) and when I REALLY pay attention to the story? I start to question why Gohan needed to be involved at all, given how... 'detached' he felt from the plot.

Well, alright... I know WHY he's involved in this arc, but when I think about how the story kind of had him spinning his wheels only to get a power-up that served BUU more than it served HIM, I can't help but feel that when people note how Toriyama seemed to have no interest in writing for Gohan... well, that might be an understatement.

As for Piccolo though, I always felt like the 'mentor-doubling-as-a-babysitter' role fit him well in a gag-oriented arc like Majin Buu. It bums me out to see people be THAT averse to that bit.

In the end, I think Toriyama clearly having fun in making DB more gag-heavy again is a part of why I ADORE the Majin Buu arc as much as I do (I'm someone who prefers gag-heavy Dragon Ball myself). I also have to commend Toriyama for having at least enough steam to go for one more story arc AND bringing Goku back to life. I like Gohan, but I just never thought he'd cut it as Dragon Ball's lead, full-time.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I can't help but feel that when people note how Toriyama seemed to have no interest in writing for Gohan... well, that might be an understatement.

I don't think it was Toriyama not being interested in him, but rather not knowing what to do with him. Gohan had a full character arc spread across three long story arcs, so Toriyama probably just didn't know where to go next with him. I personally liked Gohan in the arc, but he was clearly not where Toriyama wanted to focus the story.

I think Toriyama clearly having fun in making DB more gag-heavy again is a part of why I ADORE the Majin Buu arc as much as I do.

Same here. I've been re-watching the series all the way from the beginning (Pilaf), and now I'm at the very end of the Cell arc (9 episodes to go). I can tell you for a fact that I'm more than ready to move on from this serious tone the series has had since the 22nd Tenkaichi, so I understand why Toriyama also moved on from it.

[dragonballhero]

I can't help but feel that when people note how Toriyama seemed to have no interest in writing for Gohan... well, that might be an understatement.

I don't think it was Toriyama not being interested in him, but rather not knowing what to do with him. Gohan had a full character arc spread across three long story arcs, so Toriyama probably just didn't know where to go next with him. I personally liked Gohan in the arc, but he was clearly not where Toriyama wanted to focus the story.

Fair point. But still, I think it kinds of matches what I mentioned before. You know, about Gohan's character not really going anywhere further after Cell and all.

It's part of why I've always thought that Gohan's a nice guy and all, but his character and powers feel like they kind of fly in the face of DB's themes, if that makes sense.

I think Toriyama clearly having fun in making DB more gag-heavy again is a part of why I ADORE the Majin Buu arc as much as I do.

Same here. I've been re-watching the series all the way from the beginning (Pilaf), and now I'm at the very end of the Cell arc (9 episodes to go). I can tell you for a fact that I'm more than ready to move on from this serious tone the series has had since the 22nd Tenkaichi, so I understand why Toriyama also moved on from it.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate stuff like Goku vs. King Piccolo, Goku vs. Piccolo Jr., Goku vs. Vegeta, SSJ Goku's debut, the Father-Son Kamehameha, etc..

But MAN, I will always appreciate the Buu arc not taking itself so darn seriously. I'll admit that there were times when the arc REALLY needed to put a pin in the gag stuff (Buu killing off the majority of the cast is an ESPECIALLY big example), but aside from stuff like that? It's just nice to see DB take a crack at honoring its gag roots again.

What's more, after the bittersweet ending of Cell... Well, while I'll always have my strong reservations over Vegeta being allowed to return to life by the end of the story, I'll at least be appreciative of Toriyama bringing Goku back.
I know most folks don't like that, but after the absolute ****show life the Son family had to suffer through ever since Raditz's arrival, I'd say they deserve the happy ending they got of being reunited.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm glad that it didn't end with Cell. If you ask me, I'm happy how things are with the original manga run.

[Majin Buu]

But MAN, I will always appreciate the Buu arc not taking itself so darn seriously. I'll admit that there were times when the arc REALLY needed to put a pin in the gag stuff (Buu killing off the majority of the cast is an ESPECIALLY big example), but aside from stuff like that? It's just nice to see DB take a crack at honoring its gag roots again.

Even taking into account its return to more gag-oriented material, the Buu arc simultaneously has some of the darkest, most brutal moments in Dragon Ball actually. Throughout the arc we have:

- Videl (a female fighter and relative normie to boot) getting viciously beaten up by Spopovich (With Videl herself kicking Spopovich in the head hard enough to twist his neck 180 degrees).
- Establishing shots of dead civilians killed by Babidi and his followers near his spaceship.
- Babidi killing people via exploding them.
- Majin Vegeta deliberately blowing up spectators at the Budokai.
- Babidi getting his head shattered with a punch.
- The two evil gunmen using Buu's rampage as an excuse to go on their own killing spree (with their introduction involving shooting an elderly couple dead and then geeking out over how fun killing people is).
- The same gunmen shooting Buu's dog then later Mr. Satan (even the joke character gets put in serious peril here), turning Buu into an eviler being that goes on to finish his mass murder spree by killing off the rest of Earth's population.

Buu killing off most of the cast at Kami's temple does fall a bit flat in the manga since the manga cuts away from it, but the anime fixes that by showing it and playing up how helpless everyone is against him.

[Koitsukai]

But MAN, I will always appreciate the Buu arc not taking itself so darn seriously. I'll admit that there were times when the arc REALLY needed to put a pin in the gag stuff (Buu killing off the majority of the cast is an ESPECIALLY big example), but aside from stuff like that? It's just nice to see DB take a crack at honoring its gag roots again.

Even taking into account its return to more gag-oriented material, the Buu arc simultaneously has some of the darkest, most brutal moments in Dragon Ball actually. Throughout the arc we have:

- Videl (a female fighter and relative normie to boot) getting viciously beaten up by Spopovich (With Videl herself kicking Spopovich in the head hard enough to twist his neck 180 degrees).
- Establishing shots of dead civilians killed by Babidi and his followers near his spaceship.
- Babidi killing people via exploding them.
- Majin Vegeta deliberately blowing up spectators at the Budokai.
- Babidi getting his head shattered with a punch.
- The two evil gunmen using Buu's rampage as an excuse to go on their own killing spree (with their introduction involving shooting an elderly couple dead and then geeking out over how fun killing people is).
- The same gunmen shooting Buu's dog then later Mr. Satan (even the joke character gets put in serious peril here), turning Buu into an eviler being that goes on to finish his mass murder spree by killing off the rest of Earth's population.

Buu killing off most of the cast at Kami's temple does fall a bit flat in the manga since the manga cuts away from it, but the anime fixes that by showing it and playing up how helpless everyone is against him.

I'll add that the manga was crude as fuck with the deaths. The anime was more lukewarm about it.
The gang was killed off-screen probably to cut corners, they were turned into candy and eaten, nothing new to see there. I mean, they weren't going to be killed like Yamu or those villagers with their vowels laying around, not by Buu, at least.
And also, to make room for Dende's comeback. Had that scene been shown and we would've already know Dende wasn't dead.

[dragonballhero]

I'm glad that it didn't end with Cell. If you ask me, I'm happy how things are with the original manga run.

Same here. Honestly, I know people give it credit for the 'emotional resonance', but when I think about how we GOT to that point in the story (the Cell arc's bittersweet ending)?

Yeah... NO.

But MAN, I will always appreciate the Buu arc not taking itself so darn seriously. I'll admit that there were times when the arc REALLY needed to put a pin in the gag stuff (Buu killing off the majority of the cast is an ESPECIALLY big example), but aside from stuff like that? It's just nice to see DB take a crack at honoring its gag roots again.

Even taking into account its return to more gag-oriented material, the Buu arc simultaneously has some of the darkest, most brutal moments in Dragon Ball actually. Throughout the arc we have:

- Videl (a female fighter and relative normie to boot) getting viciously beaten up by Spopovich (With Videl herself kicking Spopovich in the head hard enough to twist his neck 180 degrees).
- Establishing shots of dead civilians killed by Babidi and his followers near his spaceship.
- Babidi killing people via exploding them.
- Majin Vegeta deliberately blowing up spectators at the Budokai.
- Babidi getting his head shattered with a punch.
- The two evil gunmen using Buu's rampage as an excuse to go on their own killing spree (with their introduction involving shooting an elderly couple dead and then geeking out over how fun killing people is).
- The same gunmen shooting Buu's dog then later Mr. Satan (even the joke character gets put in serious peril here), turning Buu into an eviler being that goes on to finish his mass murder spree by killing off the rest of Earth's population.

Buu killing off most of the cast at Kami's temple does fall a bit flat in the manga since the manga cuts away from it, but the anime fixes that by showing it and playing up how helpless everyone is against him.

Actually, this helps me remember that the anime adaptation of the Majin Buu arc was certainly a godsend in more ways than one. ESPECIALLY for Buu murdering the cast on the Lookout. Personally, I kind of wish Videl got a bit more focus on that portion of the story (at least in the anime), where she maybe thinks about Gohan for a brief moment before Buu ate her as well.

For real, I wish I knew what the reactions from the Japanese fanbase back then was like... seeing Buu kill off so many folks, to the point of eventually murdering folks like Bulma, Chi-Chi, Videl (who let us not forget, was introduced to the series via THIS VERY ARC), #18, Oolong, Puar, etc. must have been SUCH a trip to see.

But MAN, I will always appreciate the Buu arc not taking itself so darn seriously. I'll admit that there were times when the arc REALLY needed to put a pin in the gag stuff (Buu killing off the majority of the cast is an ESPECIALLY big example), but aside from stuff like that? It's just nice to see DB take a crack at honoring its gag roots again.

Even taking into account its return to more gag-oriented material, the Buu arc simultaneously has some of the darkest, most brutal moments in Dragon Ball actually. Throughout the arc we have:

- Videl (a female fighter and relative normie to boot) getting viciously beaten up by Spopovich (With Videl herself kicking Spopovich in the head hard enough to twist his neck 180 degrees).
- Establishing shots of dead civilians killed by Babidi and his followers near his spaceship.
- Babidi killing people via exploding them.
- Majin Vegeta deliberately blowing up spectators at the Budokai.
- Babidi getting his head shattered with a punch.
- The two evil gunmen using Buu's rampage as an excuse to go on their own killing spree (with their introduction involving shooting an elderly couple dead and then geeking out over how fun killing people is).
- The same gunmen shooting Buu's dog then later Mr. Satan (even the joke character gets put in serious peril here), turning Buu into an eviler being that goes on to finish his mass murder spree by killing off the rest of Earth's population.

Buu killing off most of the cast at Kami's temple does fall a bit flat in the manga since the manga cuts away from it, but the anime fixes that by showing it and playing up how helpless everyone is against him.

I'll add that the manga was crude as fuck with the deaths. The anime was more lukewarm about it.
The gang was killed off-screen probably to cut corners, they were turned into candy and eaten, nothing new to see there. I mean, they weren't going to be killed like Yamu or those villagers with their vowels laying around, not by Buu, at least.
And also, to make room for Dende's comeback. Had that scene been shown and we would've already know Dende wasn't dead.

Have to say, I think Dende's survival being a twist still could have worked. Like, maybe just focus on characters who haven't died before being killed. At least Dende's been murdered by Frieza, so...

[kemuri07]

the Buu arc might be the darkest of any of the Z arcs. And yet it is often pretty funny. After re-reading the arc a year ago, I view the Buu arc as a dark comedy: a return to Toriyama’s more misanthropic gag telling from the original DB.

The fact that Buu spends a good portion of that arc genociding the earth, while the Z fighters scramble to find anyone who can maybe take him on lends itself to a lot of really fun gags and joke . My favorite has to be the sequence that supposed to serve as showing that Fat Buu has a soft side: Buu finds a starving child. Rather than kill him he goes to find him food—by turning another person into Milk to give to the boy. Buu flies away feeling good about himself—and then immediately nukes a nearby town.

Hardest I’ve laughed at a Dragonball gag.

[Majin Buu]

Actually, this helps me remember that the anime adaptation of the Majin Buu arc was certainly a godsend in more ways than one. ESPECIALLY for Buu murdering the cast on the Lookout.

Indeed. The anime adaption is the version of the Buu arc I prefer, and that's because it does a lot to smooth over the rough edges of the original version- Toriyama's version.

Personally, I kind of wish Videl got a bit more focus on that portion of the story (at least in the anime), where she maybe thinks about Gohan for a brief moment before Buu ate her as well.

Agreed. She was very underutilized. DBZ Movie 10 at least let her be on battlefield. Even if she has to be just a spectator to the fight, she could be useful for providing a sort of alternate normie perspective on all of this to contrast her father's.

[JulieYBM]

Actually, this helps me remember that the anime adaptation of the Majin Buu arc was certainly a godsend in more ways than one. ESPECIALLY for Buu murdering the cast on the Lookout.

Indeed. The anime adaption is the version of the Buu arc I prefer, and that's because it does a lot to smooth over the rough edges of the original version- Toriyama's version.

Personally, I kind of wish Videl got a bit more focus on that portion of the story (at least in the anime), where she maybe thinks about Gohan for a brief moment before Buu ate her as well.

Agreed. She was very underutilized. DBZ Movie 10 at least let her be on battlefield. Even if she has to be just a spectator to the fight, she could be useful for providing a sort of alternate normie perspective on all of this to contrast her father's.

Yama-uchi's Episodes #232 and #279 are so cool in that respect. The latter is mostly just cool fighting, of course, but they really add some nice atmosphere to an arc where it feels like Toriyama was grasping at straws to try to keep the story moving and not really examining moments very well.

I really do wish the anime staff would have just outright changed the plot more, though. Make Videl a more permanent fixture in the plot. Make her stronger, even, so that she can fight beside the others.

The Majin Vegeta portion also got a nice expansion, with Vegeta and Gokuu's relationship having a chance to air out a bit more. It makes me wish the series wasn't so reliant on keeping in line with the comic, because having its take would have meant for a tighter, different look at these characters.

After finding out what the original ending for Hunter × Hunter (1999) was, it makes me wish that that alternate, darker ending was produced. Imagine a Dragon Ball ending that pulled a HagaRen and had an anime original ending?

[Mr Baggins]

I'm glad that it didn't end with Cell. If you ask me, I'm happy how things are with the original manga run.

Same.

Even knowing that the manga ending with Cell was intended or floated around at some point, the ending we actually got just embodies the core of the series in a way that no other story arc manages. Speaks volumes that Toriyama never wanted to go past it in any of the DB sequel material, and hey, I respect that.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm happy that it didn't end at the Cell saga.

The ending of the Cell saga is way, way, wayyyyyy too dark and melancholic for Dragon Ball. Way too dark. The moment you try to make some moral lesson about how funny, quirky monkey boy should stay dead because he's somehow a threat, you've lost me.

I feel the same way about that overrated Shadow Dragons saga from GT. The moment you try to turn the magical, fun orbs into some moral lesson about not misusing your toys, you've also lost me.

Like, they're magical, wish-granting orbs. The story is simple. Find the seven orbs, and you can wish whatever you want, even if it's some stupid underwear wish. It's a simple story. The focus is the adventure, not the ending wish. The idea that these fun, magical orbs are actually some kind of nefarious fail-safe to punish mortals and destroy the universe if someone misuses them is an actual "jumping the shark" moment, and not in a good way.

Why can't all Dragon Ball sagas just be fun, carefree adventures that don't take themselves too seriously? Before Super became the shining new punching bag, the Buu saga was the punching bag of the original series. But I loved it. What could be more Dragon Ballish than some pink gum boy who turns people into chocolate?

Honestly, I even like the stupid writing of that saga. I looove how Gohan is built up as this badass hero, only to fail and be defeated because he didn't know what to do with a earring. Way more whimsical and fun writing than the Cell saga turning Gohan into some bloodlust guy with slow walking like he's a horror movie assassin.

[Basaku]

Why can't all Dragon Ball sagas just be fun, carefree adventures that don't take themselves too seriously?

Because Toriyama felt like turning his slaptsick gag manga into grimdark Terminator story.

Fans need to accept that this franchise, much like many other billion-dollar decades-spanning franchises that accumulated multi generational crossover audience has had many different facets, periods and tones across the years and thus there isn't really a single defining piece of DB archetype arc.

[MasenkoHA]

Why can't all Dragon Ball sagas just be fun, carefree adventures that don't take themselves too seriously?

Because Toriyama felt like turning his slaptsick gag manga into grimdark Terminator story.

Fans need to accept that this franchise, much like many other billion-dollar decades-spanning franchises that accumulated multi generational crossover audience has had many different facets, periods and tones across the years and thus there isn't really a single defining piece of DB archetype arc.

Less we forget the fun carefree adventures basically ended after Red Ribbon. The Cell saga certainly isn’t anymore serious or grim than any other post Red Ribbon arc.


The Boo saga was definitely a lot of silliness not seen since pre-Tenshinhan but it definitely had all the stakes seen from the Daimao arc onwards too

[Basaku]

Less we forget the fun carefree adventures basically ended after Red Ribbon. The Cell saga certainly isn’t anymore serious or grim than any other post Red Ribbon arc.

Not by much but I do feel like it is the most serious and grimdark allaround. Heck, even the villain camp went outta the window during the arc which was still bit present prior even in Freeza arc. Satan ends up being kinda the sole comedic breather

[MasenkoHA]

Less we forget the fun carefree adventures basically ended after Red Ribbon. The Cell saga certainly isn’t anymore serious or grim than any other post Red Ribbon arc.

Not by much but I do feel like it is the most serious and grimdark allaround. Heck, even the villain camp went outta the window during the arc which was still bit present prior even in Freeza arc. Satan ends up being kinda the sole comedic breather

Not an unfair assessment but I think the only real difference between the Freeza and Cell arcs in terms of seriousness is Toriyama put the comedic levity (Ginyu Force) in the middle of the Freeza arc instead of the end of the arc with Mr.Satan in Cell’s arc.

I will say re-reading the manga from start to finish not long ago there never really was a big tonal shift anyways. It was all very gradual and Cell only feels weirdly dark and grim compared to the beginning but feels pretty natural coming after Freeza which felt natural coming after the Saiyans etc etc etc etc

[Basaku]

Less we forget the fun carefree adventures basically ended after Red Ribbon. The Cell saga certainly isn’t anymore serious or grim than any other post Red Ribbon arc.

Not by much but I do feel like it is the most serious and grimdark allaround. Heck, even the villain camp went outta the window during the arc which was still bit present prior even in Freeza arc. Satan ends up being kinda the sole comedic breather

Not an unfair assessment but I think the only real difference between the Freeza and Cell arcs in terms of seriousness is Toriyama put the comedic levity (Ginyu Force) in the middle of the Freeza arc instead of the end of the arc with Mr.Satan in Cell’s arc.

I will say re-reading the manga from start to finish not long ago there never really was a big tonal shift anyways. It was all very gradual and Cell only feels weirdly dark and grim compared to the beginning but feels pretty natural coming after Freeza which felt natural coming after the Saiyans etc etc etc etc

Ohh I 100% agree that it was very gradual and began happening much earlier than most rememeber. Red Ribbon arc was already plenty serious with moral lessons at that and Goku's developement into a righteous Superman-figure rather than just a clueless monkeyboy from Pilaf saga. Tho besides Ginyu, even Freeza had a certain amount of camp and drag queen qualities. In comparsion, Cell and all androids are dead serious and without any campy spark. Maybe 18 and her flirting with Krillin could quality but even that is depicted quite seriously/maturely

[SupremeKai25]

Why can't all Dragon Ball sagas just be fun, carefree adventures that don't take themselves too seriously?

Because Toriyama felt like turning his slaptsick gag manga into grimdark Terminator story.

Fans need to accept that this franchise, much like many other billion-dollar decades-spanning franchises that accumulated multi generational crossover audience has had many different facets, periods and tones across the years and thus there isn't really a single defining piece of DB archetype arc.

This franchise might be long-running, but 90% of Super material is way closer to the true spirit of Dragon Ball, which delights me and does put a smile on my face.

I'm very happy that Super is much closer to the original arcs of Dragon Ball and the Buu saga instead of that dark, edgy Cell saga. Imagine ending a story with the protagonist dying because he's a "threat" to everyone and so his unborn child's got to grow up without his papa. What an ugly, depressing message, totally unfiitting of Dragon Ball.

Still, Dragon Ball is indeed one of the very few franchises in existence (if not the only one) that retained its original spirit of whimsical adventure after 30 years, thanks to Revival material like BoG and Suepr.

Stuff like a tournament between 12 different universes with all those exotic species and strange creatures (talking birds, robots, strange aliens) was deliciously exhilarant.

Literally just look at Beerus. The fearsome God of Destruction is just a lazy cat who likes pudding and so he destroys the Earth because someone stole his pudding. Classic Toriyama whimsical humor. No doubt Toei planned to write Beerus as some stoic, badass threat with a deep voice. Thankfully Toriyama rewrote that movie from scratch.