Official confirmation Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball at the Cell Saga

[Basaku]

This franchise might be long-running, but 90% of Super material is way closer to the true spirit of Dragon Ball, which delights me and does put a smile on my face.

I'm very happy that Super is much closer to the original arcs of Dragon Ball and the Buu saga instead of that dark, edgy Cell saga. Imagine ending a story with the protagonist dying because he's a "threat" to everyone and so his unborn child's got to grow up without his papa. What an ugly, depressing message, totally unfiitting of Dragon Ball.

Still, Dragon Ball is indeed one of the very few franchises in existence (if not the only one) that retained its original spirit of whimsical adventure after 30 years, thanks to Revival material like BoG and Suepr.

Stuff like a tournament between 12 different universes with all those exotic species and strange creatures (talking birds, robots, strange aliens) was deliciously exhilarant.

Literally just look at Beerus. The fearsome God of Destruction is just a lazy cat who likes pudding and so he destroys the Earth because someone stole his pudding. Classic Toriyama whimsical humor. No doubt Toei planned to write Beerus as some stoic, badass threat with a deep voice. Thankfully Toriyama rewrote that movie from scratch.

Cell or Freeza are as much "true spirit of DB" as Bulma showing her vajayjay. It's all from the OG author and mastermind. Just accept it, cause it looks more like you kinda wanna claim what was "truerer" DB to Toriyama than he himself decided it was whatever he felt like at the given moment.

Sure he created Beerus, and then immediately got bored with BOG's slice-of-life gag format and wrote a very Z-like ROF movie. And then went back to gags. And then grimdark Zamasu. Artists often bounce around and do whatever inspires them or whatever they feel like.

I absolutely get if you prefer the lighter side but that is not anymore "true DB" than the more seriius/darker parts.

[SupremeKai25]

Cell or Freeza are as much "true spirit of DB" as Bulma showing her vajayjay. It's all from the OG author and mastermind. Just accept it, cause it looks more like you kinda wanna claim what was "truerer" DB to Toriyama than he himself decided it was whatever he felt like at the given moment.

Sure he created Beerus, and then immediately got bored with BOG's slice-of-life gag format and wrote a very Z-like ROF movie. And then went back to gags. And then grimdark Zamasu. Artists often bounce around and do whatever inspires them or whatever they feel like.

I absolutely get if you prefer the lighter side but that is not anymore "true DB" than the more seriius/darker parts.

You said that the Namek saga was dark, so why does it matter that RoF is also dark? By design RoF is nostalgia bait for the people who loved the Namek saga and want to see Freeza again.

Let's look at the actually original story arcs of Super, those that are not nostalgia baits:

- BoG: Story about a whimsical cat god who wants to destroy the Earth because someone stole his pudding.

- Universe 6 and Tournament of Power: Stories about Goku meeting strange aliens, bizarre creatures, and gods from other universes. Was the Tournament of Power interrupted midway because the Grand Priest turned out to be a bloodthirsty villain who wants to genocide everyone like in all those "Gohan Blanco and El Hermano" fanfictions? NO. It was just a whimsical tournament where Goku had a ton of fun and continued his endless journey of self-improvement.

- Future Trunks saga: ONLY the premise of this arc is "grimdark." The execution, which is what matters, is in line with the spirit of Dragon Ball. Nobody takes Zamasu seriously, everyone always punches him when he's monologuing like it's a cartoon gag. That ending that people constantly say is so dark is actually inspiring and uplifting. The ending words are literally: "Thank you, everyone. Hope was the right choice, and it always will be," because Trunks finally created a world of peace.

And the same exact arguments are true for the Majin Buu saga. The ending of this saga is the best possible ending Dragon Ball could have, Goku leaving with a new pupil to go on new adventures and start a new generation of Earth warriors. The subject matter is treated with levity. Majin Buu is a genocidal monster but he's also a pink gum boy who turns people into chocolate, so that's fun. When he succeeds in genociding everyone, he goes on a eating spree because he can now eat all the candies and chocolate in the world. That's fun and that's whimsical.

For these reasons and others, I consider Buu saga and Super to be strongly connected in terms of thematics and narrative. And there is a clear pattern where Toriyama wanted to go back to the beginnings of Dragon Ball, exploring Goku's never-ending journey of self-improvement while going on whimsical adventures with strange creatures and seemingly scary villains who are actually goofballs.

What exactly is fun and whimsical about the Cell saga? I'm really curious to know. Certainly NOT its doomer ending where Goten grows up fatherless and the Earth is in the hands of unreliable Gohan who got his father killed because he couldn't control himself and became bloodthirsty and sadistic.

Similarly, there is absolutely nothing whimsical about Cell. Majin Buu is funny, he loves chocolate so he just wants to eat candies all day after he's killed all humans. Zamasu is funny, when he starts monologuing, people always punch him in the face, like a recurring cartoon gag. What is funny about Cell? There are no funny gags or character quirks about Cell.

[Basaku]

Similarly, there is absolutely nothing whimsical about Cell. Majin Buu is funny, he loves chocolate so he just wants to eat candies all day after he's killed all humans. Zamasu is funny, when he starts monologuing, people always punch him in the face, like a recurring cartoon gag. What is funny about Cell? There are no funny gags or character quirks about Cell.

I didn't say there were, no clue what you're talling about right now. Kinda changing the subject too it's simple - grimdark Cell is just as much "true DB" as the slapstick gags and just because you prefer the latter it doesn't make it "more true DB"

[jjgp1112]

What exactly is fun and whimsical about the Cell saga? I'm really curious to know. Certainly NOT its doomer ending where Goten grows up fatherless and the Earth is in the hands of unreliable Gohan who got his father killed because he couldn't control himself and became bloodthirsty and sadistic.

This is as clear of an example of twisting reality to serve your own argument as it gets.

The Cell saga ends on a decidedly positive, if bittersweet note; contrary to your deliberately cynical reading of it, Gohan is presented as a worthy successor who took responsibility for his screw-up and redeemed himself. And Goten...well, he wasn't even conceived as a character until after the arc, so that's just a nonsequitur anyway.

This type of "Let's make the most bleak, cynical reading of a kid's show possible even when nothing in the presentation suggests it" rhetoric is best left in 2009.

[Koitsukai]

I can't believe I lived long enough to see someone call the Cell arc darker and grimmer than an arc where the villain actually accomplishes his evil goal, an entire timeline gets erased, and the surviving characters basically become the anime version of the Hide Your Pain Harold meme.
In fact Trunks ain't hiding any pain at all, he sees Gohan and cries because he couldn't protect his world. Talk about upbeat endings.

On the other hand, the Cell arc ends with a seasoned Gohan and friends smiling at the sky with the ghost image of a guy that can and will be brought back to life(since Goten being a thing matters, then this does too). Depressing, right.

[Zephyr]

Both arcs have bittersweet endings, I feel. The day has been saved. But at a cost. But it was still saved.

And for what it's worth, I think Cell wanting to hold a martial arts tournament, only to destroy the ring the instant it inconveniences his game, is kinda funny. Maybe not slapstick or wacky in the way Boo is, but it makes me chuckle.

[Saimaroimaru]

I imagine that Toriyama wanted to end it after each major arc. I mean by the end of the Frieza arc, he had Goku dead until he had to retcon it for the next series of arcs/sagas, finally sticking it with his suicide mission on with Cell on Planet Namek. It was like the editors or the readers would not except an ending with Goku dead & the next generation having to take over, so we got the Buu saga where it feels sometimes that he is putting his frustrations on the series through that arc.

And now, Dragon Ball is low key being hamfisted because no one is allowed to shine on their own without Goku landing the final blow in most cases. Probably why Frieza Black rolling up & ending the conflict was so memorable.

[MasenkoHA]

I imagine that Toriyama wanted to end it after each major arc. I mean by the end of the Frieza arc, he had Goku dead

No he didn’t and this has been thoroughly debunked

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-d ... net-namek/

[Vegard Aune]

I imagine that Toriyama wanted to end it after each major arc. I mean by the end of the Frieza arc, he had Goku dead

No he didn’t and this has been thoroughly debunked

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-d ... net-namek/

I think you linked to the wrong article...
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

The one you linked was about a specific instance where some people read it as "Goku got killed mid-fight and was revived by the wish on Earth to resume the fight."

[MasenkoHA]

I imagine that Toriyama wanted to end it after each major arc. I mean by the end of the Frieza arc, he had Goku dead

No he didn’t and this has been thoroughly debunked

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-d ... net-namek/

I think you linked to the wrong article...
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

The one you linked was about a specific instance where some people read it as "Goku got killed mid-fight and was revived by the wish on Earth to resume the fight."

No, I linked to the article I had intended to. I was responding to the previous poster’s assertion that Goku had died on Namek

[Zebra]

This was obvious as far back as at least when Toriyama did this interview for the franchise's 30th anniversary back in 2016: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

The Artificial Human and Cell story arc was pretty rough… I guess you could say I did all I could with Freeza, so I was burned out, and figured I couldn’t pull off a better battle than that. I thought, “Do I really have to keep going?” Even when Cell ended, it still didn’t feel like it could end. So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.”

He's obviously referring to the franchise's popularity when he says "it still didn't feel like it could end", implying that was the only reason he continued on with the Boo arc. This implies that if not for the franchise's popularity, he would've ended it at the Cell arc.

[PowerPhantom245]

He's obviously referring to the franchise's popularity when he says "it still didn't feel like it could end", implying that was the only reason he continued on with the Boo arc. This implies that if not for the franchise's popularity, he would've ended it at the Cell arc.

I mean it's not uncommon that franchise continue if it's popular and enough demands; just look at One Piece and Naruto.

[The Dark Knight]

He's obviously referring to the franchise's popularity when he says "it still didn't feel like it could end", implying that was the only reason he continued on with the Boo arc.

This can apply to any part of the franchise though, as it could've ended at any point had it lost popularity. Would we have gotten any of the Z arcs had the series lost steam during the two Piccolo arcs ? probably not. As for when Dragon Ball should've ended, I think it ended exactly at the right time: after the Buu arc.

If the story ended after the Cell arc, then there would've been the unresolved Vegeta character arc and his conflict with Goku. Gohan was shown to not be the most reliable of characters, so would he have been able to properly step up and become earth's hero ?

If the story ended after the Freeza arc, then there would've been the unresolved plot point of Goku being lost in space, the villainous Vegeta being on earth, Kami and Piccolo's unresolved differences, and Gohan's potential still being unrealized.

I bring these two arcs up in particular because they're the most common ones fans think Dragon Ball should've ended with, but unless major changes were made to them and even arcs prior, then the story would've been left with many unresolved plot points. The Majin Buu arc, despite not being as polished as the prior arcs, tied up all the loose ends and gave the story its proper conclusion. With that said, The Buu arc introduced a loose end of its own that didn't get resolved for another 30 years: The Demon Realm, but that's no longer the case now thanks to Daima.

[Zebra]

He's obviously referring to the franchise's popularity when he says "it still didn't feel like it could end", implying that was the only reason he continued on with the Boo arc.

This can apply to any part of the franchise though, as it could've ended at any point had it lost popularity.

The fact he specifically said it was too popular to end at the Cell arc implies he considered ending it at that point, and only continued because it was so popular.

If the story ended after the Cell arc, then there would've been the unresolved Vegeta character arc and his conflict with Goku.

It was already resolved. He vowed to never fight again.

Gohan was shown to not be the most reliable of characters, so would he have been able to properly step up and become earth's hero ?

It's not like Gokuu was any more reliable.

[The Dark Knight]

The fact he specifically said it was too popular to end at the Cell arc implies he considered ending it at that point, and only continued because it was so popular.

He said the same thing about the Baba tournament that took place after the Red Ribbon Army fight after Goku was reunited with his grandpa Gohan. Dragon Ball wasn't exactly a passion project for Toriyama; it was a job. If he could've ended it at any point before he actually did, he very likely would've. With that said, the Buu arc was only intended to last six months, but Toriyama was enjoying it enough to extend it to two years.

[Zebra]

The fact he specifically said it was too popular to end at the Cell arc implies he considered ending it at that point, and only continued because it was so popular.

He said the same thing about the Baba tournament that took place after the Red Ribbon Army fight after Goku was reunited with his grandpa Gohan. Dragon Ball wasn't exactly a passion project for Toriyama; it was a job. If he could've ended it at any point before he actually did, he very likely would've. With that said, the Buu arc was only intended to last six months, but Toriyama was enjoying it enough to extend it to two years.

I don't recall it ever being said the Boo arc was supposed to last only 6 months lol

[Grimlock]

Never heard of it either, but a simple and quick search led me to whatever this is. It goes without saying we need a credible source for every thing stated here.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't recall it ever being said the Boo arc was supposed to last only 6 months lol

Spoiler:

Never heard of it either, but a simple and quick search led me to whatever this is. It goes without saying we need a credible source for every thing stated here.

It's a translated interview with Toriyama's three editors, but I'm not sure if someone reliable like Ajay has said anything about its accuracy.

[Zebra]

Sounds like his editors are just speculating. "Probably intended", "might have", etc. I don't think he'd start the Boo arc just to end it in six months. If anything, he might've planned to finish the manga in 1994 rather than 1995.

[JulieYBM]

It's Toriyama, I seriously doubt he would have had an issue ending the Majin Buu arc in just six months. He would have dropped it at the drop of a hat if he could have.