Torishima gives his opinion on Dragon Ball Daima and says he would make a Vegeta story

[Jiren The Alpha]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

[funrush]

I mean yeah that's true. Toriyama was a bit of a savant. I saw one of the editors (may have been Torishima) recently say that Toriyama would do a chapter all in one day so he could spend the rest of his week on his passions like his cars and drawing other stuff. Which is mindblowing to me because I've heard of so many mangaka overworking to hospitalization/death because they're working on their series 24/7, meanwhile Toriyama appears to be a guy who could pump out a masterwork at the last minute.

Based on some comments I've heard from Torishima and Yu Kondo I wonder if Toriyama liked having an editor that kind of bullies him a little bit LOL. Like I'm sure many of you have heard the story about how 19/20 were the main villains of the Android arc until his editor was like "They're old guys! Lame!" and then he makes 16/17/18 and Kondo's like "Now they're kids? Lame!" and then he comes up with Imperfect Cell and Kondo's like "Now it's just a bug! Lame!" so on and so forth until Perfect Cell.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

That's only half true at most
Editors are much more involved in the writing of a story than we are led to believe.
For example, Torishima is the one that suggested to Toriyama to introduce a tournament arc after the Pilaf Saga, which wasn't doing well in Shonen Jump, and you know what that means, manga that don't do well get axed

And lo and behold, the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament Arc is where the manga started to do really well in the magazine. So he saved Dragon Ball from getting cancelled as soon as it started basically.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

That's only half true at most
Editors are much more involved in the writing of a story than we are led to believe.
For example, Torishima is the one that suggested to Toriyama to introduce a tournament arc after the Pilaf Saga, which wasn't doing well in Shonen Jump, and you know what that means, manga that don't do well get axed

And lo and behold, the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament Arc is where the manga started to do really well in the magazine. So he saved Dragon Ball from getting cancelled as soon as it started basically.

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special. He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

[JulieYBM]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

That's only half true at most
Editors are much more involved in the writing of a story than we are led to believe.
For example, Torishima is the one that suggested to Toriyama to introduce a tournament arc after the Pilaf Saga, which wasn't doing well in Shonen Jump, and you know what that means, manga that don't do well get axed

And lo and behold, the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament Arc is where the manga started to do really well in the magazine. So he saved Dragon Ball from getting cancelled as soon as it started basically.

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special. He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

Toriyama was only creating comics because he was being arm twisted into it.

Like, don't get me wrong, I trust my own opinion over Torishima's any day of the week, but Toriyama wasn't exactly big on doing anything unless he was basically pushed into it—and I don't even blame him for that, because needing to work is bullshit lol

[PhantomSaiyan]

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special.

I never understood this type of reasoning.
"Anyone could have done it" but he's the one that did it, and we have proof of that. But you have no proof that literally any other editor would have suggested the same thing.
Tournament arcs weren't exactly popular before Dragon Ball, so he not only gave a creative suggestion that saved the franchise, but also one that would be copied by every next generation, to this day.

He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

This is false, since I have given you one example of constructive criticism that led to the development of the action based Dragon Ball we know and love, yet you say that "anyone could have done that"
At this point, you're just arguing in bad faith without being willing to look at things objectively and without bias.

Torishima is literally well known for being a very opinionated person who is very strict as an editor, so you claiming that he did not give constructive criticism and had no ideas is pretty perplexing.

Your words would be better suited for the late Dragon Ball editors that were around during the Buu Saga. They had close to no influence and just let Toriyama do whatever he had to do in order to have fun with his last few years of writing, a stark contrast to Torishima's way of working.

[YamiGoku]

Based Torishima, who better to review a Dragon Ball story than him, the one who help making Dragon Ball into the legendary Anime/Manga that is today.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special.

I never understood this type of reasoning.
"Anyone could have done it" but he's the one that did it, and we have proof of that. But you have no proof that literally any other editor would have suggested the same thing.
Tournament arcs weren't exactly popular before Dragon Ball, so he not only gave a creative suggestion that saved the franchise, but also one that would be copied by every next generation, to this day.

He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

This is false, since I have given you one example of constructive criticism that led to the development of the action based Dragon Ball we know and love, yet you say that "anyone could have done that"
At this point, you're just arguing in bad faith without being willing to look at things objectively and without bias.

Torishima is literally well known for being a very opinionated person who is very strict as an editor, so you claiming that he did not give constructive criticism and had no ideas is pretty perplexing.

Your words would be better suited for the late Dragon Ball editors that were around during the Buu Saga. They had close to no influence and just let Toriyama do whatever he had to do in order to have fun with his last few years of writing, a stark contrast to Torishima's way of working.

Give me a example of contructive criticism that is not him saying, "this is bad, "they look lame," ,"this is shit", because that is not contructive criticism. And he HIMSELF said that he was not creative enough to become a writer, so he pick the easier job and just throwed ideas at Toriyama who had too make them work with 20 minuttes of sleep. The guy can be opinionated all he want, but when it comes too writing, he is out of his element and his opinion should not be taken serious when it comes too writing a story.

[JulieYBM]

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special.

I never understood this type of reasoning.
"Anyone could have done it" but he's the one that did it, and we have proof of that. But you have no proof that literally any other editor would have suggested the same thing.
Tournament arcs weren't exactly popular before Dragon Ball, so he not only gave a creative suggestion that saved the franchise, but also one that would be copied by every next generation, to this day.

He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

This is false, since I have given you one example of constructive criticism that led to the development of the action based Dragon Ball we know and love, yet you say that "anyone could have done that"
At this point, you're just arguing in bad faith without being willing to look at things objectively and without bias.

Torishima is literally well known for being a very opinionated person who is very strict as an editor, so you claiming that he did not give constructive criticism and had no ideas is pretty perplexing.

Your words would be better suited for the late Dragon Ball editors that were around during the Buu Saga. They had close to no influence and just let Toriyama do whatever he had to do in order to have fun with his last few years of writing, a stark contrast to Torishima's way of working.

Give me a example of contructive criticism that is not him saying, "this is bad, "they look lame," ,"this is shit", because that is not contructive criticism. And he HIMSELF said that he was not creative enough to become a writer, so he pick the easier job and just throwed ideas at Toriyama who had too make them work with 20 minuttes of sleep. The guy can be opinionated all he want, but when it comes too writing, he is out of his element and his opinion should not be taken serious when it comes too writing a story.

Far be it for me to defend a guy who is more successful and wealthy than I'll ever be, but even putting aside the fact that we don't exactly know every little detail about their working relationship from thirty-to-forty-five years ago, you really need to keep in mind the importance of an editor in both the creative and administrative process. You can be as sharp a writer and creator as any, but a sharp mind with skills different from yours is an invaluable asset in the creative process.

[Yellow Flower King]

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special.

I never understood this type of reasoning.
"Anyone could have done it" but he's the one that did it, and we have proof of that. But you have no proof that literally any other editor would have suggested the same thing.
Tournament arcs weren't exactly popular before Dragon Ball, so he not only gave a creative suggestion that saved the franchise, but also one that would be copied by every next generation, to this day.

He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

This is false, since I have given you one example of constructive criticism that led to the development of the action based Dragon Ball we know and love, yet you say that "anyone could have done that"
At this point, you're just arguing in bad faith without being willing to look at things objectively and without bias.

Torishima is literally well known for being a very opinionated person who is very strict as an editor, so you claiming that he did not give constructive criticism and had no ideas is pretty perplexing.

Your words would be better suited for the late Dragon Ball editors that were around during the Buu Saga. They had close to no influence and just let Toriyama do whatever he had to do in order to have fun with his last few years of writing, a stark contrast to Torishima's way of working.

Give me a example of contructive criticism that is not him saying, "this is bad, "they look lame," ,"this is shit", because that is not contructive criticism. And he HIMSELF said that he was not creative enough to become a writer, so he pick the easier job and just throwed ideas at Toriyama who had too make them work with 20 minuttes of sleep. The guy can be opinionated all he want, but when it comes too writing, he is out of his element and his opinion should not be taken serious when it comes too writing a story.

He told Toriyama to coreograph battles in the reading order, so readers could follow more easily, like Fist of The North Star did.

He did reseach on why Dragon Ball was losing popularity after the Red Ribbon arc and he came up with the idea to create a REALLY EVIL villain, one readers could despise and make them want Goku defeat them.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Give me a example of contructive criticism that is not him saying, "this is bad, "they look lame," ,"this is shit", because that is not contructive criticism. And he HIMSELF said that he was not creative enough to become a writer, so he pick the easier job and just throwed ideas at Toriyama who had too make them work with 20 minuttes of sleep. The guy can be opinionated all he want, but when it comes too writing, he is out of his element and his opinion should not be taken serious when it comes too writing a story.

I literally already gave you an example (an example that SAVED Dragon Ball from being cancelled mind you) that you chose to just repond lazily with "anyone could have come up with that", and I already explained why that's a lame argument, in any scenario.

Now, I'm going to reiterate what Julie said because she pretty much nailed it

First of all, you're talking as if you have a detailed knowledge of all of their in depth conversations about Dragon Ball (which were a LOT considering it was their living).
Stop talking as if you know, you were not there, you did not work with them, you do not even have the faintest idea of how their working relationship worked, at all.

I wasn't there either, but it seems that unlike you, I have read enough interviews from the both of them to know how an editor-writer parthership works, and you clearly lack that knowledge considering how you're dismissing the role of the editor in the manga world, that in itself says a lot about how out of your depth you are in this conversation.

It's not just the "easy way out" kind of job that you think it is. They were pretty much co writing the early parts of Dragon Ball together. If it wasn't for Torishima, Dragon Ball wouldn't even be about fighting, or action based at all.
You should educate yourself more on the role of an editor beyong the surface level of knowledge.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

because I've heard of so many mangaka overworking to hospitalization/death because they're working on their series 24/7, meanwhile Toriyama appears to be a guy who could pump out a masterwork at the last minute.

Toriyama wasn't immune to the pressures of his line of work even if it was self inflicted. Before he got a fax machine he would have to bike across town to the airport to get his manuscripts mailed overnight to Torishima for Dr. Slump. Torishima mentioned in his book that Toriyama had to be forced into getting a fax machine because he didn't want to have to learn a new technology during his work week.

[JulieYBM]

because I've heard of so many mangaka overworking to hospitalization/death because they're working on their series 24/7, meanwhile Toriyama appears to be a guy who could pump out a masterwork at the last minute.

Toriyama wasn't immune to the pressures of his line of work even if it was self inflicted. Before he got a fax machine he would have to bike across town to the airport to get his manuscripts mailed overnight to Torishima for Dr. Slump. Torishima mentioned in his book that Toriyama had to be forced into getting a fax machine because he didn't want to have to learn a new technology during his work week.

man needed to get on adderal, holy fuck lol

[Yellow Flower King]

I cant believe Faxes were useful once...

[damn]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special. He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

All of this is completely wrong and very ignorant.
It was Torishima who noticed Toriyama in the first place.
No other editor at the time would have pushed Arale to be the main star of Dr. Slump for one, since Shonen Jump like other Shonen manga was all about masculine manly stuff.
The editorial department at Shonen Jump were reluctant to accept Dr. Slump. When Torishima presented the series they said ''Where's the story?''. They didn't understand the appeal because up until then shonen jump manga were all heavy plot-based.
Torishima still pushed the manga to be accepted even though he too was a rookie at the time, and then when Dr. Slump got massively popular changed the industry and that also opened the floodgates for other fresh innovative series in Jump like Hisashi Eguchi's Stop!! Hibari-kun.

It was also his idea that Dragon Ball even existed in the first place. If you replace Torishima with some rando editor in 1983, then Toriyama would have just done something else entirely after finishing Dr. Slump because any other editor would just be conservative and tell Toriyama to stick to doing gag series or just let Toriyama do whatever he wanted, which would mean no Dragon Ball.

No constructive criticism? This is the guy who, even though he wasn't Toriyama's editor at the time anymore having left to be the editor of V-Jump, famously called Toriyama to complain about Dr. Gero and 20 being a geezer and a fatso and 17 and 18 being a bunch of brats. He was basically responsible for the existence of Cell despite not being his editor anymore ffs.
Toriyama-Torishima good cop bad cop partnership created something special.

He's not an old man yelling at clouds, in fact quite the contrary, if you read what he's been saying about the manga industry lately you would know just how sharp he still is.
He never lost his touch. He knows what fans want. Let's face it, many fans would eat up a Vegeta story.

Oh also: Almost forgot, he was also the one who came up with the idea of fusing Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest which led to Chrono Trigger. And he was also instrumental in pushing for Chrono Trigger to become a reality because it was not easy for 2 rival companies to work together either.
And let's not forget that he is the one who told Toriyama to be the illustrator for Dragon Quest either.
In fact in the same interview it's revealed that he also criticized Hironobu Sakaguchi/Final Fantasy when Sakaguchi came to Jump to advertise FFIV because he wanted FF to become a rival for DQ.


https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/A ... rview.html

Seriously, where do you get off with this bs?
Torishima was a visionary, not just ''some editor'' like you're trying to portray him as.

[Yellow Flower King]

Old man yelling at cloud. Toriyama could have a broom as an editor and he would still have become successful. Dr slump and DB would still have become big with or without Torishima. Fans need too stop gaslighting themselves into believing he made Dragon Ball big lol.

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special. He also became an editor because he himself said that he was not creative enough too become a writer. So Toriyama had the harder job and had too work with a editor that don't have the ability to give constructive criticism and no creative ideas of his own.

All of this is completely wrong and very ignorant.
It was Torishima who noticed Toriyama in the first place.
No other editor at the time would have pushed Arale to be the main star of Dr. Slump for one, since Shonen Jump like other Shonen manga was all about masculine manly stuff.
The editorial department at Shonen Jump were reluctant to accept Dr. Slump. When Torishima presented the series they said ''Where's the story?''. They didn't understand the appeal because up until then shonen jump manga were all heavy plot-based.
Torishima still pushed the manga to be accepted even though he too was a rookie at the time, and then when Dr. Slump got massively popular changed the industry and that also opened the floodgates for other fresh innovative series in Jump like Hisashi Eguchi's Stop!! Hibari-kun.

It was also his idea that Dragon Ball even existed in the first place. If you replace Torishima with some rando editor in 1983, then Toriyama would have just done something else entirely after finishing Dr. Slump because any other editor would just be conservative and tell Toriyama to stick to doing gag series or just let Toriyama do whatever he wanted, which would mean no Dragon Ball.

No constructive criticism? This is the guy who, even though he wasn't Toriyama's editor at the time anymore having left to be the editor of V-Jump, famously called Toriyama to complain about Dr. Gero and 20 being a geezer and a fatso and 17 and 18 being a bunch of brats. He was basically responsible for the existence of Cell despite not being his editor anymore ffs.
Toriyama-Torishima good cop bad cop partnership created something special.

He's not an old man yelling at clouds, in fact quite the contrary, if you read what he's been saying about the manga industry lately you would know just how sharp he still is.
He never lost his touch. He knows what fans want. Let's face it, many fans would eat up a Vegeta story.

Oh also: Almost forgot, he was also the one who came up with the idea of fusing Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest which led to Chrono Trigger. And he was also instrumental in pushing for Chrono Trigger to become a reality because it was not easy for 2 rival companies to work together either.
And let's not forget that he is the one who told Toriyama to be the illustrator for Dragon Quest either.
In fact in the same interview it's revealed that he also criticized Hironobu Sakaguchi/Final Fantasy when Sakaguchi came to Jump to advertise FFIV because he wanted FF to become a rival for DQ.


https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/A ... rview.html

Seriously, where do you get off with this bs?
Torishima was a visionary, not just ''some editor'' like you're trying to portray him as.

This whole post is a thing of beauty but you missed the point of his post. Sure it was a stupid point, but his point was that Torishima "Never gave constructive" (Read as "Positive" or "Not rude" or "mean") but you are very much correct that Torishima did bat for Toriyama which shows that's his point was bullshit.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Torishima: There is no way One Piece will become a popular manga! Don't talk nonsense!!

Yeah....he clearly never lost his touch lol. Toriyama is still the one that worked the hardest of the 2, so for me, he is the one that deserves most of the praise and recognition. But i guess for the Edgy Ball Z fans, Torishima is they GOAT lol. But let's see him make a Vegeta story, so he can put stress on a writer too make a good story and get all the credit when it succeed and non of the blame when it fails.

[JulieYBM]

Torishima: There is no way One Piece will become a popular manga! Don't talk nonsense!!

Yeah....he clearly never lost his touch lol. Toriyama is still the one that worked the hardest of the 2, so for me, he is the one that deserves most of the praise and recognition. But i guess for the Edgy Ball Z fans, Torishima is they GOAT lol. But let's see him make a Vegeta story, so he can put stress on a writer too make a good story and get all the credit when it succeed and non of the blame when it fails.

Sir, you don’t need to be a childish asshole about this, like...come on lol

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Torishima talked about anime adaptations in his book and how the original tone/vibe can be lost in translation to a different medium. I've never seen the Dr. Slump anime (supposedly it went from dry humor to cutesy family fun), but he hated that anime with a passion, and complained to Shuashia that he and Toriyama needed more direct involvement with the development of the next anime. Without him batting for Toriyama's input we might not have had Masako Nozawa as Goku. Now she's the second most identifiable name in Dragon Ball after Toriyama himself.
Little gestures like these can have a way bigger impact in the long run than we think.

[Yellow Flower King]

Torishima: There is no way One Piece will become a popular manga! Don't talk nonsense!!

Yeah....he clearly never lost his touch lol. Toriyama is still the one that worked the hardest of the 2, so for me, he is the one that deserves most of the praise and recognition. But i guess for the Edgy Ball Z fans, Torishima is they GOAT lol. But let's see him make a Vegeta story, so he can put stress on a writer too make a good story and get all the credit when it succeed and non of the blame when it fails.

If you saw how One Piece was by now, I'd say Oda needed a Torishima to control him from his dumber ideas. And even then a young daring editor was the one who vouched for One Piece and that saw it appear on the manga.