Non-thread-worthy discussions

[super michael]

I'm getting really annoyed by the amount of people online commenting how "Toriyama gave TFS his blessing" and how "Toriyama loved DBZA". Toriyama couldn't speak English, and his colleagues seemed to imply that he didn't use the Internet much. How could he possibly have known it existed?
This misinformation started getting spread again because Sean Schemmel asked people at a panel to stop asking him about it since it's not an official anime product. So now people are pissed off at him for asking them to respect his boundaries.
Fandom mindset is just ridiculous.

People really say that? That's insane lol also funny how delusional they can be

I see this in plenty of fandoms. On a lot of subreddits, I see people saying things like "the author of x manga definitely reads this subreddit because x y and z happened in the story", it's crazy that they don't realize just how disconnected japanese authors are from the western side of the fandom, or more broadly, how japanese people are disconnected from the western world in general aside from some movies and music

I'd say this is pretty obvious by looking at how many western fans have a misconception that Goku is some heroic, Superman-like champion of justice derived from that horribly-dubbed DBZ show. Which TFS even poked fun at with that whole "I am the alpha and the omega" speech he gives to Freeza in the parody.

These people had a pretty rude awakening when Toriyama went back to writing Goku for Super and it turned out that he was -NOT- supposed to be a hero of justice, the light of the universe, the protector of the innocents, the smiter of evil, yada yada yada.

You are correct that the English Dub changed the writing for Goku, Goku isn't a man that gives heroic speech. Those that watched other dubs, original language and read the manga would know the English Dub was inaccurate.
However those that only watched it in English Dub, they would think DBS is the one that isn't accurate.

DBS however they exaggerated Goku being dumb, even to the point that he has 0 common sense on the things that he should know. Goku is normally saying and doing dumb things, even on things that he should know better.
Goku is a known genius at training and fighting, but somehow he is a clown in DBS Super Hero, who is very judgemental, bossy and a amateur. This we can't blame.

In conclusion no we can't blame the English Dub, for why people doesn't like DBS Goku. There are people that watched it in other languages and read the manga.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I'm getting really annoyed by the amount of people online commenting how "Toriyama gave TFS his blessing" and how "Toriyama loved DBZA". Toriyama couldn't speak English, and his colleagues seemed to imply that he didn't use the Internet much. How could he possibly have known it existed?
This misinformation started getting spread again because Sean Schemmel asked people at a panel to stop asking him about it since it's not an official anime product. So now people are pissed off at him for asking them to respect his boundaries.
Fandom mindset is just ridiculous.

People really say that? That's insane lol also funny how delusional they can be

I see this in plenty of fandoms. On a lot of subreddits, I see people saying things like "the author of x manga definitely reads this subreddit because x y and z happened in the story", it's crazy that they don't realize just how disconnected japanese authors are from the western side of the fandom, or more broadly, how japanese people are disconnected from the western world in general aside from some movies and music

On the English speaking side of things I also don't understand how Schemmel is the rude one when he's publicly stated that he won't questions about the abridged series because it's not an official product, and fans continue to bring it up. I understand that the guy has a temper, but that seems like a pretty reasonable request. "Don't ask me about fan made content because I can't comment on it as someone who has to represent the brand officially." Yet fans are throwing a hissy fit saying that he's just afraid of losing his job to MasakoX, or doesn't respect Toriyama because he loved TFS (even though he couldn't speak English).

[super michael]

Remember in the past people thought everyone memory would get erased, so they can't remember what happened in DBS such as meeting the Gods. People came up with that idea, so DBS could fit with EOZ.

As for TFS and DBZA, those are not official product so the company can't comment on those. The company has no involvement in those.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I don't know if this needs its own thread but this article has been out for 2 days now about Masako Nozawa being the first ever seiyu to receive the "Prestigious Person of Cultural Merit Recognition".
To quote the article directly: "The Persons of Cultural Merit honor was set up in 1951 to give honorees a pension, which, as of 1985, is 3.5 million yen (US$23,300) per year, after the then-new Constitution of Japan disallowed any government-sponsored awards to have benefits attached. "
So in simple terms she's officially recognized as a Japanese national treasure now.
You can read the full article here: https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/latest ... erit-honor

[Peach]

I'm getting really annoyed by the amount of people online commenting how "Toriyama gave TFS his blessing" and how "Toriyama loved DBZA". Toriyama couldn't speak English, and his colleagues seemed to imply that he didn't use the Internet much. How could he possibly have known it existed?
This misinformation started getting spread again because Sean Schemmel asked people at a panel to stop asking him about it since it's not an official anime product. So now people are pissed off at him for asking them to respect his boundaries.
Fandom mindset is just ridiculous.

People really say that? That's insane lol also funny how delusional they can be

I see this in plenty of fandoms. On a lot of subreddits, I see people saying things like "the author of x manga definitely reads this subreddit because x y and z happened in the story", it's crazy that they don't realize just how disconnected japanese authors are from the western side of the fandom, or more broadly, how japanese people are disconnected from the western world in general aside from some movies and music

On the English speaking side of things I also don't understand how Schemmel is the rude one when he's publicly stated that he won't questions about the abridged series because it's not an official product, and fans continue to bring it up. I understand that the guy has a temper, but that seems like a pretty reasonable request. "Don't ask me about fan made content because I can't comment on it as someone who has to represent the brand officially." Yet fans are throwing a hissy fit saying that he's just afraid of losing his job to MasakoX, or doesn't respect Toriyama because he loved TFS (even though he couldn't speak English).

I don't think Sean Schemmel has been rude at all.

Toei does not approve of TFS and DBZA and views it as illegal/copyright infringement. Schemmel's job as Goku would be in jeopardy if he endorsed that product. TFS has operated in a legal grey area with regards to monetization. While they don't take ad revenue from the episodes and claim it's a non-profit parody, the reality is they have sold a lot of DBZA merchandise, made money off convention fees where they premiere new episodes, were commissioned to do Buu Bits and voice acting for Death Battle, have made Abridged spinoffs that they monetize, and operate a Patreon where they accept donations - which clearly kept them employed as a team so they could work on new episodes. They also straight up ignored a request from Toei. Compare that to Mega64 who has made legal parodies produced for Funimation.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

People really say that? That's insane lol also funny how delusional they can be

I see this in plenty of fandoms. On a lot of subreddits, I see people saying things like "the author of x manga definitely reads this subreddit because x y and z happened in the story", it's crazy that they don't realize just how disconnected japanese authors are from the western side of the fandom, or more broadly, how japanese people are disconnected from the western world in general aside from some movies and music

On the English speaking side of things I also don't understand how Schemmel is the rude one when he's publicly stated that he won't questions about the abridged series because it's not an official product, and fans continue to bring it up. I understand that the guy has a temper, but that seems like a pretty reasonable request. "Don't ask me about fan made content because I can't comment on it as someone who has to represent the brand officially." Yet fans are throwing a hissy fit saying that he's just afraid of losing his job to MasakoX, or doesn't respect Toriyama because he loved TFS (even though he couldn't speak English).

I don't think Sean Schemmel has been rude at all.

Toei does not approve of TFS and DBZA and views it as illegal/copyright infringement. Schemmel's job as Goku would be in jeopardy if he endorsed that product. TFS has operated in a legal grey area with regards to monetization. While they don't take ad revenue from the episodes and claim it's a non-profit parody, the reality is they have sold a lot of DBZA merchandise, made money off convention fees where they premiere new episodes, were commissioned to do Buu Bits and voice acting for Death Battle, have made Abridged spinoffs that they monetize, and operate a Patreon where they accept donations - which clearly kept them employed as a team so they could work on new episodes. They also straight up ignored a request from Toei. Compare that to Mega64 who has made legal parodies produced for Funimation.

TFS even dropped DBZA altogether partly because it would keep them from ever going legit in the industry.

[ABED]

It boggles my mind when I see people claim the Saiyan arc is part of the Freeza arc. It happens, even on here.

[TobyS]

It boggles my mind when I see people claim the Saiyan arc is part of the Freeza arc. It happens, even on here.

They flow together more neatly then other arcs, Vegeta works for Freeza and the throughline of Goku accepting his saiyan heritage, no time skip like before BOZ, Cell or Boo, Vegeta is a villain in both, the art style doesn't really change much.

I kinda see it. I know they are separate but I can totally see why people could conflate them more than any other arc.

[MasenkoHA]

It boggles my mind when I see people claim the Saiyan arc is part of the Freeza arc. It happens, even on here.

It’s a complete story. Nothing really gets resolution in the Saiyan arc as it leads directly into Freeza. I suppose by that logic the Tenshinhan arc would be considered part the Piccolo arc (which the Full Color Manga did iirc but kept Saiyan and Freeza separate )

I consider Saiyan and Freeza separate but I don’t think it’s mind boggling. And even though it doesn’t apply to the actual manga or the Z anime, Kai pretty much structures them as one arc. By opening the story with Freeza destroying planet Vegeta and setting him up as the big bad plus Burdock’s vision of Goku phasing Freeza as the big “showdown”. And with so many younger fans choosing and suggesting Kai over Z…I can see the line of thinking

[JulieYBM]

I'd also argue that the flow between the Saiyan, Namek and Garlic Junior arcs feels united in Dragon Ball Z due to the music and staff not really changing much over all. New pieces of music are added, but there doesn't feel like quite as big a shift.

[ABED]

It boggles my mind when I see people claim the Saiyan arc is part of the Freeza arc. It happens, even on here.

They flow together more neatly then other arcs, Vegeta works for Freeza and the throughline of Goku accepting his saiyan heritage, no time skip like before BOZ, Cell or Boo, Vegeta is a villain in both, the art style doesn't really change much.

I kinda see it. I know they are separate but I can totally see why people could conflate them more than any other arc.

They flow well but they are distinct arcs. They each have a beginning, middle, and end. Vegeta doesn't work for Freeza anymore the second he decides to go to Earth to get the Dragon Balls. It's an act of insubordination and rebellion.

Nothing really gets resolution in the Saiyan arc as it leads directly into Freeza.

Yeah it does. The Saiyans are defeated. I assume you are talking about the death of Goku's friends. Of course that wasn't resolved but resurrecting them weren't the central motivations in the Saiyan arc. Those motivations arise as a result of the arc. Goku and his friends are trying to protect Earth from the Saiyans. Raditz arriving is the inciting incident. Mission Accomplished. Story threads starting in one art and resolved in another doesn't make them a single arc.

[Zephyr]

Speaking as someone who treats Saiyan and Namek as separate arcs, you can just as easily argue that "the conflict with the Saiyans" is just the inciting incident for an arc about Goku's gradual and reluctant acceptance of his Saiyan heritage, culminating in a battle with his peoples' killer out in space. Alternatively, you can argue that despite the events of the Raditz arc flowing into the Vegeta & Nappa arc, the central motivations of saving Gohan and defeating Raditz are resolved. Again, to be clear, I do not do these things, but I could see the vision if someone said they did.

Larger stories contain smaller stories. You gotta do more to explain why these ones have to make for an arc break while those ones can't. Or why these events flowing into each other matters when it comes to the question, but those ones don't. It's fuzzy enough that your mind really shouldn't be this boggled. Like, I strongly disagree with people who treat them as the same arc (same as I disagree with people who treat "Goku vs Red Ribbon Army" and "Goku at Uranai Baba's" as different arcs), but I'm not going to pretend that I can't understand it.

[ABED]

Speaking as someone who treats Saiyan and Namek as separate arcs, you can just as easily argue that "the conflict with the Saiyans" is just the inciting incident for an arc about Goku's gradual and reluctant acceptance of his Saiyan heritage, culminating in a battle with his peoples' killer out in space. Alternatively, you can argue that despite the events of the Raditz arc flowing into the Vegeta & Nappa arc, the central motivations of saving Gohan and defeating Raditz are resolved. Again, to be clear, I do not do these things, but I could see the vision if someone said they did.

Larger stories contain smaller stories. You gotta do more to explain why these ones have to make for an arc break while those ones can't. Or why these events flowing into each other matters when it comes to the question, but those ones don't. It's fuzzy enough that your mind really shouldn't be this boggled. Like, I strongly disagree with people who treat them as the same arc (same as I disagree with people who treat "Goku vs Red Ribbon Army" and "Goku at Uranai Baba's" as different arcs), but I'm not going to pretend that I can't understand it.

It's not gradual. Goku is shocked at first, but besides that, he has no real issue with his Saiyan heritage. But even so, that's a character arc. A character arc can extend over multiple plot arcs (e.g. Vegeta and Piccolo), but when we talk about story arcs like the Saiyan, Cell, and Freeza arcs, we're talking about the plot arcs revolving around the central antagonist.

Raditz was never the endgame. He was always the portent to something bigger - Vegeta and Nappa. Something flowing nicely into another doesn't mean they aren't distinct stories. The biggest reason I see cited for why they are one story is because Vegeta worked for Freeza. At the point when we meet him, he no longer does. I don't consider any of this fuzzy. I feel it's very clearly delineated. Just being honest. What's interesting is how many of you are playing devil's advocate. You all aren't giving me your opinions but more like "I don't think this, but SOME might". I respect what you all are saying, but I just don't think it holds up to scrutiny.

[JulieYBM]

Does it have to one or the other? The two arcs compliment one another such that I just don't see why it's an issue to be a little limp-wristed about it.

[super michael]

I see the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga as different saga. As for Goku he always thought that he was humans, then he find out he is alien from a species that are evil and his brother is evil. Of course Goku will reject the idea that he is a Saiyan who are evil.

Then later Goku accepted he was a Saiyan and even to have the pride of the Saiyan when Vegeta died.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The Saiyan and Freeza arcs are different arcs, the latter is just like a perfect sequel to the former.

[super michael]

Lets not forget it was in the Saiyan Saga that Goku figures it out that it was himself that killed Grandpa Gohan, when he found out Saiyans can turn into their Oozaru form. Just by seeing Vegeta transform, that was all it took.

[CodeOfMe]

It's barely worth a mention, but apparently a new "HD" upscale of the original Dragon Ball is up on Hulu. Don't get your hopes up--as mentioned, it's an upscale, and not even a good one.

I really can't understand Toei's thought process in regards to these sorts of releases. They've scanned 16mm film into HD for other shows of theirs, so why not Dragon Ball? It's 153 episodes, yes, but surely having a good high quality scan of the show for use in home media/streaming releases by either Toei or foreign publishers would be easier than having, like, 3 different upscales (Selecta Vision, AB Groupe, and now this Hulu one--and there might be more I'm forgetting too) of one show.

(Also, this Hulu release seems to be dub only which lol, lmao even.)

[The Dark Knight]

Lets not forget it was in the Saiyan Saga that Goku figures it out that it was himself that killed Grandpa Gohan, when he found out Saiyans can turn into their Oozaru form. Just by seeing Vegeta transform, that was all it took.

Goku was actually a smart character in the original series, he just wasn't the brightest when it came to social conventions.

I really can't understand Toei's thought process in regards to these sorts of releases. They've scanned 16mm film into HD for other shows of theirs, so why not Dragon Ball? It's 153 episodes, yes, but surely having a good high quality scan of the show for use in home media/streaming releases by either Toei or foreign publishers would be easier than having, like, 3 different upscales (Selecta Vision, AB Groupe, and now this Hulu one--and there might be more I'm forgetting too) of one show.

(Also, this Hulu release seems to be dub only which lol, lmao even.)

Even today, Dragon Ball suffers from bad releases, as now we have the green tint to deal with and the weird upscale they did for Daima's 4K release. For whatever reason, Toei and their partners seem to be incapable of just releasing the show as it is. If it weren't for fan groups like Seed of Might, we'd never be able to experience the show in an authentic way.

[Grimlock]

This is probably thread-worthy, but I'm gonna post it here anyway.

Vegeta cares about the Saiyan race.

This is his last words right before dying. He begs, while crying, Goku to defeat Freeza, that the latter must die by a Saiyan's hands. You can say that Vegeta "hated Freeza because working for him was an insult to his pride", and Goku himself acknowledges this, but as you can see below, Goku also acknowledges that Vegeta was begging due to Freeza having killed his race, so it was both. He hated Freeza for having to work for him, and for killing his race.



And then there's what Vegeta himself says in Movie 15. He would never join up with someone who destroyed his planet. This behavior could only be seen from soneone who cares, not from someone who didn't care.