Whats Nappa's power level?

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:01 pm

Herms wrote: This is nit-picky, but Nappa doesn't have a "powered up state", since he doesn't have the ability to power up that the Earth fighters have. At any rate, he never does anything power up-like against Goku, although he sort of does this "bracing himself" thing once, but this is still while he's getting beat up. When he does go all out, all he does is say something to the effect of "Now I'll show you my true ability", and then he starts fighting evenly with Goku (or at least much closer to even).

Now, I don't have the manga, nor have I ever had the pleasure of reading it, but isn't the power-up sequence at 6:20 (in the link I provide below) him increasing his power to its utmost maximum? If I understand things correctly, a glowing aura usually means the fighter is using the current peak of their power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pJMh24K ... 3&index=76

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:43 pm

Darn, I forgot that part. But with that, it looks more like he's charging up his super finger attack than anything else (at least that's how it looks to me).

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:50 pm

Herms wrote:Darn, I forgot that part. But with that, it looks more like he's charging up his super finger attack than anything else (at least that's how it looks to me).

Well yes, but the aura is still there when flies up to fight Goku hand to hand, even saying "I can see him!", which is indicative of an increase in power allowing Nappa to keep up with Goku's movements.

Before this point Nappa had a lot of trouble just seeing where Goku was.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:18 pm

I think being able to follow someone's movements or not is based more on mental rigor than strength. Vegeta tells Nappa that he can take Goku if he "makes calm decisions", so I think him starting to fight on par with Goku isn't due to a sudden increase in power than with him thinking things through and treating Goku as a worthy opponent instead of someone he can just bowl over with brute strength like all the other Earth warriors.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:33 pm

Herms wrote:I think being able to follow someone's movements or not is based more on mental rigor than strength.

Vegeta follows Final Form Freeza's movements later when Piccolo can't. There's at least some strength involvement.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:42 pm

It's not strength so much as overall energy. It's relative; when you get more energy you can go faster, so what was real fast to you before is just normal speed now. So that lets you see things that were way out of your reach before easier since they're closer to your level now.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:16 am

Xyex wrote:
goodguy777 wrote:
Xyex wrote: He never leaves it during the entire battle. He fights evenly with Nappa at that point and the Kaioken usage shows he's at 8,000. If he were at 5,000 he wouldn't have needed the Kaioken to catch Nappa, since Nappa would be at 4,000 by that. Also, in the battle with Vegeta he's not shown to power-up again but his Kaioken levels match with someone at a base of 8,000.
Goku's ordinary fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack. And Goku used the Kaiohken because there was no time to catch up with Nappa(attempted to kill Gohan and Krilin), power level is not speed.
Powerlevel = Everything in the DB world. Your powerlevel is a reading of your Ki, your Ki determines your durability, speed, and strength. Higher levels of Ki (thusly, higher powerlevels) give you greater speed. If there was no powerlevel/speed relationship then the Kaioken wouldn't have let Goku catch up to Nappa.

What I'm trying to prove is Goku can beat Nappa without Kaiohken because the true purpose of using the Kaiohken at that moment was to prevent Nappa's attempt in killing Gohan and Krilin. Nappa tricked Goku, it has nothing to do with speed because if Goku knew what would happen then there's no point in using the Kaiohken.

Xyex wrote: As for Goku negating Nappa's attack. So? Goku's power of slightly over 8,000 was able to negate an attack from Nappa who was around 8,000 (maybe even a little lower than 8k). That's just logical. What isn't logical is to assume that Goku at 5,000 would 'take all day' against Nappa at 4,000. Nappa was just batting around Piccolo (3,500) without breaking a sweat (difference of 1.14x). But now he's weaker than someone else, by a difference of 1.25x (greater than his advantage over Piccolo) and he's fairing better?

Goku didn't take the fight seriously while Nappa gave it all. Nappa has the advantage when he used his ultimate attack, Goku's ORDINARY fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack and Vegeta even comments on Goku's ability to block it as such close range.

Piccolo burned Nappa's back.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:56 am

Goku's ORDINARY fireball

I think a point should be made that Goku was concerned that Nappa didn't take any damage from his Kamehameha, which heavily implied they were equal.

A rough excerpt from the anime:

Nappa: "I-Impossible! That was my greatest technique, and you brushed it aside!"

Goku: "You really are one tough bastard. You should have taken at least a little damage from my Kamehame-ha. We ain't getting anywhere like this."

Vegeta then calls Nappa down, saying that he couldn't believe that he would have to fight Goku. Why would Vegeta think Nappa could beat Goku if his strength was only at 4-5000? Vegeta isn't an idiot, and he had to tell Nappa to calm down just so he would up his game so he could fight evenly.

Nappa made a lot of mistakes, and Goku didn't make any. I think that's partly why Vegeta killed Nappa without much hesitation, because he did so poorly even when (nearly) evenly matched against Goku.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:48 am

What I'm trying to prove is Goku can beat Nappa without Kaiohken because the true purpose of using the Kaiohken at that moment was to prevent Nappa's attempt in killing Gohan and Krilin. Nappa tricked Goku, it has nothing to do with speed because if Goku knew what would happen then there's no point in using the Kaiohken.

If he could have beat him without the Kaioken then he wouldn't have needed it to stop Nappa from going after Krillin and Gohan. His full speed would have been enough to catch him. It wasn't. Therefore he and Nappa are on similar power scales. Both around 8,000.

Goku didn't take the fight seriously while Nappa gave it all. Nappa has the advantage when he used his ultimate attack, Goku's ORDINARY fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack and Vegeta even comments on Goku's ability to block it as such close range.

First of all, Goku doesn't use 'fireballs'. (Seriously, this is a pet peve of mine. There's no fire (or heat, for that matter) involved in ki and it drives me up the wall to see 'fireball'.)

Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Goku use a Kamehameha and not just a generic ki blast? Even so, it's perfectly logical that a standard 8k energy blast would cancel out another 8k energy attack. It's just common sense. "Utlimate Attack" or not it's still just a basic non-charged attack.

Piccolo burned Nappa's back.

Yeah. Piccolo did extremely minor damage to a Nappa who was opperating with at about 4,000. He had the rest of his power still in reserve at this point so it's perfectly logical that charged attack from Piccolo would do at least a little damage.

Also, looking over your posts again you seem to have a misunderstanding of the concept of 'base level'. Goku's 5,000 power was not his 'base'. That was his supressed level. A manual and concious reduction of his power. His base was 8,000. Just as when he landed on Namek is supressed level was 5,000 and his base was 90,000. Or are you going to say that he fought at 5,000 against the Ginyu Force as well, becuase fighting at 90k would wear him out too fast?

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:11 am

Xyex wrote:
What I'm trying to prove is Goku can beat Nappa without Kaiohken because the true purpose of using the Kaiohken at that moment was to prevent Nappa's attempt in killing Gohan and Krilin. Nappa tricked Goku, it has nothing to do with speed because if Goku knew what would happen then there's no point in using the Kaiohken.
If he could have beat him without the Kaioken then he wouldn't have needed it to stop Nappa from going after Krillin and Gohan. His full speed would have been enough to catch him. It wasn't. Therefore he and Nappa are on similar power scales. Both around 8,000.

You're ignoring the fact that Nappa tricked Goku and because of that there was no time for Goku to catch Nappa if he didn't use the Kaiohken.

First of all, Goku doesn't use 'fireballs'. (Seriously, this is a pet peve of mine. There's no fire (or heat, for that matter) involved in ki and it drives me up the wall to see 'fireball'.)

Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Goku use a Kamehameha and not just a generic ki blast? Even so, it's perfectly logical that a standard 8k energy blast would cancel out another 8k energy attack. It's just common sense. "Utlimate Attack" or not it's still just a basic non-charged attack.

Viz translated it as fireball. Since when it was stated that Goku used a kame hame ha to blocked Nappa's u. attack? Don't ignore this, like I said before Nappa is at the advantage position when he used his ultimate attack and Vegeta even comments on Goku's ability to block it as such close range.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:31 am

You're ignoring the fact that Nappa tricked Goku and because of that there was no time for Goku to catch Nappa if he didn't use the Kaiohken.

Trick him? How did he trick him? He started dropping to the ground, looked at Krillin and Gohan and then went after them. Goku immediately went after him, and couldn't close the difference without Kai-oh-ken. That speaks to me that they were equal without it.

Viz translated it as fireball. Since when it was stated that Goku used a kame hame ha to blocked Nappa's u. attack? Don't ignore this, like I said before Nappa is at the advantage position when he used his ultimate attack and Vegeta even comments on Goku's ability to block it as such close range.

I already proved that Goku used his Kamehameha, look at my link on the previous page, or even the snippet of dialogue from the anime. Goku mentions specifically using the Kamehameha, does the hand gestures and technique.

Vegeta probably thought Nappa would have a good chance at winning if he pulled it out very quickly at close range right in Goku's face, it speaks volumes to Goku's ability that he was able to very quickly guard against it.

The fact that he even mentions that his Kamehameha should have damaged Nappa at least a little strongly suggests that they were close to equal in terms of strength at that point.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:08 am

Horgus wrote: Trick him? How did he trick him? He started dropping to the ground, looked at Krillin and Gohan and then went after them. Goku immediately went after him, and couldn't close the difference without Kai-oh-ken. That speaks to me that they were equal without it.

I already proved that Goku used his Kamehameha, look at my link on the previous page, or even the snippet of dialogue from the anime. Goku mentions specifically using the Kamehameha, does the hand gestures and technique.

Vegeta probably thought Nappa would have a good chance at winning if he pulled it out very quickly at close range right in Goku's face, it speaks volumes to Goku's ability that he was able to very quickly guard against it.

The fact that he even mentions that his Kamehameha should have damaged Nappa at least a little strongly suggests that they were close to equal in terms of strength at that point.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:45 am

Horgus wrote:
You're ignoring the fact that Nappa tricked Goku and because of that there was no time for Goku to catch Nappa if he didn't use the Kaiohken.
Trick him? How did he trick him? He started dropping to the ground, looked at Krillin and Gohan and then went after them. Goku immediately went after him, and couldn't close the difference without Kai-oh-ken. That speaks to me that they were equal without it.

Oh come on. I think you can see his point. Nappa was closer to Gohan and Krillin, and even had a little head start.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:11 am

goodguy777 wrote:Viz translated it as fireball. Since when it was stated that Goku used a kame hame ha to blocked Nappa's u. attack?

In the Japanese, when Goku goes "Ha!!" and block's Nappa's greatest technique, the kanji used is 波, the one used to write the final "ha" in "Kamehameha". So combined with his hand posture, and the fact that he mentions the Kamehameha afterward, it seems that blast was intended to be a Kamehameha. Perhaps the reason he didn't say the whole name is because Nappa's attack was at such close range and he didn't have the time to go through the whole "Ka...me...ha...me...HA!!" thing? I don't know why Viz changed "Kamehameha" to "fireball" in their translation of what Goku says afterward.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:21 am

Oh come on. I think you can see his point. Nappa was closer to Gohan and Krillin, and even had a little head start.

So? That's not even in contention. The arguement here is the 4k/8k or 8k/8k difference. If Goku were only at 5k in their fight he'd have had no need for the Kaioken. Simply increasing to his 8k level would have been sufficient for overtaking Nappa. But he needed the Kaioken, thus he was already at 8k while fighting Nappa, thus Nappa was near 8k as well.

Viz translated it as fireball. Since when it was stated that Goku used a kame hame ha to blocked Nappa's u. attack?

What Viz translated it to doesn't matter. It was a Kamehameha and you just proved it with the scans. You can even recognize the hand pose when he uses it. Plus as Herms and Horgus mentioned Goku's line in the original is "Kamehameha" not this stupid 'fireball' nonsense.

Also, your scans further proove that Goku and Nappa were near even in power. Not only with the stuff I mentioned above with the need of Kaioken to catch Nappa but also with the what Goku says in the last panel of the very last scan you posted. He's shocked Nappa's unhurt and says the fight with them could take forever. This is not somehting he'd say if he was twice as strong as Nappa.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:53 am

I have a really huge problem with posts filled with bootleg scans of licensed manga.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:43 am

Would it be okay if we could scan the pages that we want to show with our personal copy of the manga instead of online scans?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 am

Pain wrote:Would it be okay if we could scan the pages that we want to show with our personal copy of the manga instead of online scans?

Much more appropriate. There's no reason to be giving free publicity to shitty scum fans like that.