Ssj4 Vs. Ssj4: Did GT or Daima do it Better ?

[Zephyr]

They both share the flaw of the design and the name not really matching each other. Neither looks like what you'd reasonably expect to happen if you powered Super Saiyan 3 up even further.

The main strength of Daima's Super Saiyan 4, to me, is that all of the hair is more or less the same color, which Makes More Sense™ than GT's. Also, despite the name and design not lining up, it is actually reached by powering up more from Super Saiyan 3, so calling it "Super Saiyan 4" in Daima is a bit more sensible.

But I think GT's did it better in just about every other conceivable way. It's actually integrated into the story in an interesting way, and the design and the underlying mechanics actually line up with each other. Daima's design made a couple of really bizarre downgrades, with wristbands that clash with the bald patches on the wrists, and a waistband that doesn't break the design up the way GT's belt did. Finally, Daima's looks like if you combined GT's Super Saiyan 4 with Super Saiyan God, and it would have been way more cool and interesting if that's what it actually was.

[JulieYBM]

Giving GT the scheduling and number of talented staff that Daima had would have been a major improvement to GT. Giving Daima GT's proper build up would have completed Daima.

Two sides of the same income coin.

[Zephyr]

That is true, another point in Daima's GT's favor is that it got to be depicted in a more consistently nice looking show.

[super michael]

Daima SSJ4 Goku actually used his tail to help him fight, it wasn't just for show.
https://youtu.be/Uj713tduz3w?t=57

[The Dark Knight]

Vegeta turned into his Golden Oozaru form and SSJ4 on his own, not from Bulma machine.

This should be printed on a shirt and advertised on all popular TV and streaming channels. I honestly don't know how people can argue this point when it's right there in the show itself; it's not some vague thing that's left up to interpretation. The machine only turned him into a regular Ozaru, a state he stayed in for a bit before grabbing Goku THEN going gold, before finally reaching Ssj4. The machine was out of the picture long before he changed into the golden form.

While I agree GT didn't always have the best fights, there were some real standout moments with SS4.

I think if we're talking about individual moments, then GT's Ssj4 may be able to squeeze up top, but in terms of actual hand to hand choreography, Daima has it easily beaten. Now that I think back on GT (I plan on re-watching it next year for its 30th anniversary), it had all the makings of a really good show, it just lacked the polish of DB & Z. I think a more polished version of GT could easily stand next to those two series as their equal.

They both share the flaw of the design and the name not really matching each other. Neither looks like what you'd reasonably expect to happen if you powered Super Saiyan 3 up even further.

In the GT perfect Files, it's stated that Ssj4 was designed to be its own type of transformation, rather than a continuation of what came before. It's also stated that the name was chosen out of convenience, rather than to signal it being part of the same family of transformations that Ssj1-Ssj3 are.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Daima SSJ4 Goku actually used his tail to help him fight, it wasn't just for show.
https://youtu.be/Uj713tduz3w?t=57

I think that falls under the "Daima is a better looking show" argument for sure: Goku using his tail only happened because the animators were given a proper schedule so they could integrate such ideas into the animation, I remember seeing the actual animator talking about it on twitter or in a youtube video.

I'm sure that if GT were given the same priviledge we would have seen some more interesting applications of the tail in combat

[Zephyr]

They both share the flaw of the design and the name not really matching each other. Neither looks like what you'd reasonably expect to happen if you powered Super Saiyan 3 up even further.

In the GT perfect Files, it's stated that Ssj4 was designed to be its own type of transformation, rather than a continuation of what came before. It's also stated that the name was chosen out of convenience, rather than to signal it being part of the same family of transformations that Ssj1-Ssj3 are.

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, the name does (falsely) signal that.

[Grimlock]

In your opinion, which series had the better Ssj4, GT or Daima ?

Introduction-wise: Dragon Ball GT.

Fighting-wise: I don't care much.

Design-wise: Dragon Ball Heroes. Xeno Goku, Xeno Vegetto and Bardock managed to look good in Super Saiyan 4.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Daima because it was presented honestly, unlike GT with its faux emotional justification.

[JulieYBM]

That is true, another point in Daima's GT's favor is that it got to be depicted in a more consistently nice looking show.

My major criticism of post-Dragon Ball Z material is basically that it's always half of what it should be, so the fact that it keeps swapping back which halfs are done well is kind of hilarious. The Tournament of Power arc in the cartoon is sooooooo close to being perfect, but that shitty production environment and not pushing some of the scripts a bit harder is suuuuuch a pain.

[Koitsukai]

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

There was no time to go look for someone to pull his tail out. With that said, I think it's something they should've done instead of the machine, but that doesn't change the fact that the transformation into a Golden ape then into Ssj4 had nothing to do with the machine. As for losing control, he never did before, which was an advantage he had over Goku. The emotional part was in a prior episode where he thinks back to how he gave up on his rivalry and wondered if it was worth it or not.

Look, I’m not saying it’s internally inconsistent, because it isn’t, it meets all the diegetic criteria; I mean it is narratively hollow. It isn’t earned through any emotional growth, training, or personal breakthrough. It’s the same schtick V-Baby pulled: “Bulma, boost me up,” and the tech does the rest.
It isn’t Geets accomplishing it, it happens to him. You could replace him with any other Saiyan and the result would be the same, except they’d probably struggle with control a bit more.

Narratively, it’s weak. There’s no weight, no struggle. Vegeta learns nothing from this, it has no meaning. He loses the power up and ends up back at square one. It’s not earned, it’s given. It's just X = 4, skipping the whole math behind it, even though the answer is 4.

[super michael]

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

There was no time to go look for someone to pull his tail out. With that said, I think it's something they should've done instead of the machine, but that doesn't change the fact that the transformation into a Golden ape then into Ssj4 had nothing to do with the machine. As for losing control, he never did before, which was an advantage he had over Goku. The emotional part was in a prior episode where he thinks back to how he gave up on his rivalry and wondered if it was worth it or not.

Look, I’m not saying it’s internally inconsistent, because it isn’t, it meets all the diegetic criteria; I mean it is narratively hollow. It isn’t earned through any emotional growth, training, or personal breakthrough. It’s the same schtick V-Baby pulled: “Bulma, boost me up,” and the tech does the rest.
It isn’t Geets accomplishing it, it happens to him. You could replace him with any other Saiyan and the result would be the same, except they’d probably struggle with control a bit more.

Narratively, it’s weak. There’s no weight, no struggle. Vegeta learns nothing from this, it has no meaning. He loses the power up and ends up back at square one. It’s not earned, it’s given. It's just X = 4, skipping the whole math behind it, even though the answer is 4.

Vegeta had complete control of his Oozaru form in the Saiyan Saga, that must have required training to get to that level. Vegeta could speak in his Oozaru form. That is why Vegeta had a easier time reaching SSJ4 compared to Goku who struggled to gain control of himself.
Vegeta even has a technique which enable anyone to transform into their Oozaru form, if the Saiyan has their tail.

As for why Goku regained his tail, maybe it was Kaioshin training or maybe it was because he was a kid. However in the anime it seems to be Kaioshin training, unless there is a guide book that has information on this. Bulma machine grows the Saiyan tail back.

[PhantomSaiyan]

It isn’t Geets accomplishing it, it happens to him. You could replace him with any other Saiyan and the result would be the same, except they’d probably struggle with control a bit more.

Narratively, it’s weak. There’s no weight, no struggle. Vegeta learns nothing from this, it has no meaning. He loses the power up and ends up back at square one. It’s not earned, it’s given. It's just X = 4, skipping the whole math behind it, even though the answer is 4.

Goku didn't accomplish it either.

You still did not answer my question: What woud change if instead Vegeta asked the supreme kais to pull out his tail? It would not be any more earned cuz it's the SAME EXACT THING, and you keep failing to explain how it isn't.

[super michael]

It isn’t Geets accomplishing it, it happens to him. You could replace him with any other Saiyan and the result would be the same, except they’d probably struggle with control a bit more.

Narratively, it’s weak. There’s no weight, no struggle. Vegeta learns nothing from this, it has no meaning. He loses the power up and ends up back at square one. It’s not earned, it’s given. It's just X = 4, skipping the whole math behind it, even though the answer is 4.

Goku didn't accomplish it either.

You still did not answer my question: What woud change if instead Vegeta asked the supreme kais to pull out his tail? It would not be any more earned cuz it's the SAME EXACT THING, and you keep failing to explain how it isn't.

Same here I don't see why how Vegeta getting his tail from Kaioshin training instead of Bulma Blutz Wave machine makes a difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvH_mVg5XrY
Vegeta in complete control and talking in the Saiyan Saga.


Bebi Vegeta Oozaru transformation and tail wasn't temporary, I don't know why SSJ4 Vegeta transformation and tail was temporary. What made them different.

[The Dark Knight]

Daima because it was presented honestly, unlike GT with its faux emotional justification.

How was it authentic in Daima when it was literally just handed to Goku out of the blue ? In GT he got his tail pulled out, reflected on his life on earth after losing to Baby, transformed into a golden great ape and rampaged the planet, then finally regain consciousness after Pan put her life on the line to remained him of who he was. It tied in perfectly to Goku's journey up to that point and the origins of the Saiyan race; Daima's had none of that.

It isn’t earned through any emotional growth, training, or personal breakthrough.

Yes it was; we spent an entire episode with Vegeta thinking back on all he had been through up to that point, stating that he put his rivalry with Goku behind him and wanted to achieve the form to test his own limits as a warrior.

It isn’t Geets accomplishing it, it happens to him.

The machine did not turn him into a golden ape, nor did it help him regain consciousness, nor did it trigger the Ssj4 transformation. Vegeta did all of these on his own. You're arguing for something that literally did not happen.

I don't know why SSJ4 Vegeta transformation and tail was temporary.

I'd pay good money to see the look on Vegeta's face when the old Kai tells him the one and only way he can get his tail back permanently.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't find much anything meaningful to add to a topic associated with the million-and-counting pointless Twitter arguments over these two forms since Daima ended, but if you asked me:

Daima's SS4 is more appealing across the board. I prefer its various reds and color uniformity over GT's clashing, busy hues. I like the wrists. I love those big ass forearm/foot sizes and the beltless waistband. I think it's probably Toriyama's best transformation design for any character since Ultra Instinct, not to mention dripping with personality specifically because of the way Goku moves and fights while in it. It's a form that, by all intention, was designed to look wild and be wild, and that's a neat contrast to the various calmer forms Toriyama created for Goku in Super.

I like that it's the legitimate successor to SS3 without looking like some bullshit. Reminds me of Frieza's transformations in that there's a logical design progression for each one, then suddenly the "true" form pops up and turns out to look completely different – and even then there's still a semblance of design progression, since SS3 looks like a caveman. That, too, is neat.

Much akin to GT in general, I hardly like or respect anything about GT's SS4 in practice. All these colors and they can't even mesh; magic vomit green pants was not on my bingo card, but this bingo game sucks. The forced melodrama of Goku having to remember Crying Damsel Pan to become human is neither believable nor compelling, nor even mildly interesting. Throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks isn't substance, that's bird shit stuck to a wall. The fuck even is a golden oozaru?

With that said, the irony of my comparison isn't lost on me. Without SS4 or GT, we'd never have a "Toriyama take" on either, and I generally enjoy Nakatsuru's art. GT's iteration looks okay in black and white, at least, even if it was something of an annoying DB trend to draw everyone with massive fucking chins at the time.

My vote will always go to Daima's version, but that's just me. This is all super subjective stuff.

[super michael]

Pan crying isn't the only reason why Goku regained control of himself and turned into a SSJ4. That is really downplaying Pan contribution. She kept talking to Goku and the picture helped a lot. Goku was gaining some control before Pan started to cry.


In Dragon Ball Goku never gained control of his Oozaru form, normally he never had the chance since the others normally cut his tail or blow the moon up.

Vegeta mastered his Oozaru form, which is why achieving Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 would be easier compared to Goku.

Golden Oozaru is basically an Oozaru that has gone Super Saiyan.

[Zebra]

I prefer the design in GT (no goofy giant hands or forearms), but I prefer the way Gokuu transformed in Daima. GT was cornier due to Pan's crying; Daima is refreshingly straight to the point.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I prefer the design in GT (no goofy giant hands or forearms), but I prefer the way Gokuu transformed in Daima. GT was cornier with Pan's crying; Daima is refreshingly straight to the point.

A little too straight to the point for my liking. One could almost say it came out of absolutely nowhere

[Zebra]

I prefer the design in GT (no goofy giant hands or forearms), but I prefer the way Gokuu transformed in Daima. GT was cornier with Pan's crying; Daima is refreshingly straight to the point.

A little too straight to the point for my liking. One could almost say it came out of absolutely nowhere

That's true. Gokuu should've at least regrown his tail before transforming.