GT treating the Z movies as having happened

[Koitsukai]

It's funny because Toei chose to keep their Precious (Broly) out of the equation in GT, probably to save face, since he was coming back only to get oneshot back to hell.

That said, they could’ve simply made him more than just fodder like the rest. Or maybe, since the Z movies contradict not only the main series but even each other, Broly exists in a different timeline altogether, but I doubt they put that much thought into such a minute matter. More likely, Broly was missing simply so he wouldn’t be disserviced.

Janemba does not exist anymore and Hirudegan... probably too distracting visually to be part of the arc, IDK.

I still don't know why Baby didn't come back.

Koyama Takao didn't work on Dragon Ball GT, which is probably why Broly did not appear. Koyama is the reason why Broly has three movies: he couldn't think of other characters to serve as antagonists.

But isn't Broly Toei's property? Koyama legally owns Broly?

[JulieYBM]

It's funny because Toei chose to keep their Precious (Broly) out of the equation in GT, probably to save face, since he was coming back only to get oneshot back to hell.

That said, they could’ve simply made him more than just fodder like the rest. Or maybe, since the Z movies contradict not only the main series but even each other, Broly exists in a different timeline altogether, but I doubt they put that much thought into such a minute matter. More likely, Broly was missing simply so he wouldn’t be disserviced.

Janemba does not exist anymore and Hirudegan... probably too distracting visually to be part of the arc, IDK.

I still don't know why Baby didn't come back.

Koyama Takao didn't work on Dragon Ball GT, which is probably why Broly did not appear. Koyama is the reason why Broly has three movies: he couldn't think of other characters to serve as antagonists.

But isn't Broly Toei's property? Koyama legally owns Broly?

He created Broly and he's the reason he was used for three films. I don't know why he wasn't used again in GT.

[BernardoCairo]

In theory, it makes sense. The films were made by many of the same people who created GT. However, ultimately, I find it bizarre. Many of these films make absolutely no sense or could never have happened in Z. That's why I don't take the argument that "GT is the true sequel to Z" very seriously.

[Kenji]

Not sure if "true sequel" is a thing that could be applied, but GT was very much envisioned as the one direct sequel to Z at the time.
Inconsistencies aside, Z's last episode features GT's first episode's preview as the next one in line, there isn't much argument against that.

Saying it isn't so because it doesn't perfectly align with the manga (Z never did) or the Z anime (it never even aligned with itself to begin with), or because Super and Daima came down the line decades later, is making an argument against the original creators' intentions.

[BernardoCairo]

It may have been conceived that way, but due to the team's own decisions, it doesn't fit perfectly. Which, incidentally, is not a problem. But I see a lot of people arguing that Super doesn't fit Z and that GT is the "true" sequel, when both have similar inconsistencies (with GT being even crazier because of its connections to the films).
My point is that there is no "true" sequel to the Z anime, only several different sequels.

[Kenji]

The Z movies clearly happened in some shape or form in the heads of Toei's writers.
This is not something GT has chosen to go with, it's how Z's continuity was always operating.

Garlic Jr. having a filler arc sequel to its movie counterpart, Maron being brought into the Cell Saga after debuting in that arc, Higher Dragon making multiple filler appearances and being mentioned in the Boo saga, Videl cosplaying as the Great Saiyaman #2 at the tail end of the Z anime. All of these are indicators that the movies did happen in some shape or form in Z's continuity.

Singling out GT specifically for invalidation because Cooler has a non-speaking cameo, or Goku uses the Dragon Fist, for example, is being disingenuous. The truth is, the movies were all canon in some shape or form in the anime adaptation trilogy, at least during its original run.

Also, Maron is alluded to in Super, does that make everything canon all at once?

We shouldn't be treating "Mythology Gags" or minor inconsistencies as confirmation that something is or isn't in-continuity.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity. The inconsistencies don't matter, because Toei never cared about them to begin with.

[MasenkoHA]

The Z movies clearly happened in some shape or form in the heads of Toei's writers.
This is not something GT has chosen to go with, it's how Z's continuity was always operating.

Garlic Jr. having a filler arc sequel to its movie counterpart, Maron being brought into the Cell Saga after debuting in that arc, Higher Dragon making multiple filler appearances and being mentioned in the Boo saga, Videl cosplaying as the Great Saiyaman #2 at the tail end of the Z anime. All of these are indicators that the movies did happen in some shape or form in Z's continuity.

Singling out GT specifically for invalidation because Cooler has a non-speaking cameo, or Goku uses the Dragon Fist, for example, is being disingenuous. The truth is, the movies were all canon in some shape or form in the anime adaptation trilogy, at least during its original run.

Also, Maron is alluded to in Super, does that make everything canon all at once?

We shouldn't be treating "Mythology Gags" or minor inconsistencies as confirmation that something is or isn't in-continuity.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity. The inconsistencies don't matter, because Toei never cared about them to begin with.

This is the correct answer. Toei will almost always default to the manga as canon but when left to their own devices it’s all part of the canon. It doesn’t matter that The Decisive Battle For Earth” can’t possibly fit anywhere. When Toei has original material to write it fucking happened and here’s Hire Dragon paling around with Gohan. Don’t think about it too hard the series was written for 9 year olds boys who laugh at farting and the tv series wasn’t even considered for a home video release while it was airing

[BernardoCairo]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity.

I don't think the intention was for all the films to necessarily be connected to Dragon Ball Z. I believe that at least a good portion of them were created as alternate stories, and this goes back to the OG series of course.
But I get it.

[MasenkoHA]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity.

I don't think the intention was for all the films to necessarily be connected to Dragon Ball Z. I believe that at least a good portion of them were created as alternate stories, and this goes back to the OG series of course.
But I get it.

Alternate stories to what? Almost all the Z movies refer back the main storyline. This isn’t like the og Dragon Ball trilogy which actually is an alternate universe divorced from the main series where the movies are connected to one another. Pretty much all the Z movies assume your familiarity with the tv series and reference events going on at the time.

The Coola movie, for example, isn’t an alternate storyline to the Freeza saga, it is very much a sequel to that arc with references to Freeza and his battle with Goku. References that do not make sense without having seen or read the Freeza arc.


At best you could maybe make a case for the Garlic Jr movie taking the place of the Raditz episodes but even then it seems like Toei wanted it to take place between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z while ignoring key details for their story to work.

[Scsigs]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity. The inconsistencies don't matter, because Toei never cared about them to begin with.

Yeah, no. I don't know why some people have this mentality with non-serial movies that clearly have continuity issues with the main series they're spawned from. There's even a video that goes over all of the reasons why the movies can't happen.
https://youtu.be/hSt85B-ayCA?si=tY6edyxkcvJ3b-ce

Dead Zone. Clearly can't happen in the main timeline because it's clearly meant to be an alternate telling of Raditz mixed with elements of Pilaf & Vegeta's plan for immortality. Not to mention that the Dragon Balls should be scattered around the Earth inert when the series starts if it's meant to take place before the start of the series & no one should be surprised Gohan exists.

World's Strongest. Can't happen because at the time it clearly would take place in the timeline (after the fight with Vegeta & Nappa), most of the people in it are dead.

Tree of Might. Same problem as the previous one, but add on that everyone alive is on Namek.

Lord Slug. Same problems as the last 2.

Cooler 1. Technically could take place after Goku comes back to Earth, but Cooler was never mentioned before & never shows up or is mentioned in the rest of the series when you'd think he would be.

Cooler 2: Electric Boogaloo. Because of the clear ages of the characters, they were clearly plucked out of the early Android Arc, which we know because Vegeta can go Super Saiyan. Then we take into account Dende randomly being on the Lookout WAY before he was supposed to & way before he was made God in the manga, which means Kami's also gone from that position, so Piccolo absorbed him & this would have to be after he fought Cell, which means Goku would still be suffering or in recuperation from the heart virus & Trunks should be back from the future. Why would they leave Earth when it's under threat from the Androids even if Namek's under attack?

Android 13. Would take place in the middle of the Android Arc since everyone's alive, Goku's fine, Vegeta can go Super Saiyan, & Trunks is there, but then 16, 17, 18, & Cell should be out there somewhere & everyone should be tracking them down. Yet Dr. Gero's machine randomly activates 3 more androids & everyone's having a shopping day? What?

Broly 1. The only place it COULD take place is in the 10-day wait for the Cell Games, but Goku & Gohan aren't Super Saiyan for some reason & Goku & Chichi are at an interview to get Gohan into a school, everyone else are having a day relaxing at the park, Paragas & his goons show up without stirring Cell (who's also not mentioned anywhere), etc. It's for those reasons I believe the movie was intended to take place after the Cell Games & the writers accidentally shot themselves in the foot thinking Goku would survive that battle, so people assume it takes place where I said it actually could because it also adds on the continuity error of Goku not being dead again.

Bojack. Has the cleanest place where it can take place next to Wrath of the Dragon with the timeskip between the Androids & Buu.

Broly 2: Even More Electric Boogaloo. HAS to take place some time after the tournament in the Buu Arc when Goku's back in Otherworld, as Gohan's trained up, he, Goten, & Trunks know Videl, Goten knows Goku, etc. However, the Dragon Balls somehow work despite being used literally right before the time space where they'd go on the hunt for them to bring back the people killed by Vegeta after he goes Majin. However, they'd have no actual opportunity to do so given that Buu was still around, Gohan was with Supreme Kai & Kibito, & Goten & Trunks would be training to use Fusion. Also runs into a snag with how the Dragon Balls & death work. They shouldn't be able to bring Goku back to Earth for even a second with them & I don't understand how Shenron, while not being summoned, would be able to hear Goten's thoughts to grant his wish since he's never been shown to be able to do that in the show, manga, or other films.

Broly 3: Shoot Me. No actual place to go in the timeline. Would have to take place after the tournament, as 18's specifically trying to collect her money from Mr. Satan. You COULD say after the defeat of Buu, but if so, why do Goten & Trunks not do fusion against the Broly clone & why are they the only characters in the movie? It's clear they were plucked from during Gohan's training on the World of the Kais where Goku also is, but if so, Buu should be around causing havoc & they should know fusion. It also being a direct sequel to the last Broly movie kicks it out of the main timeline.

Fusion Reborn. Impossible to take place in the main timeline. It clearly takes place in a timeline where Gohan defeated Super Buu. Everything on Earth has returned to the status quo, but Goku's still dead & fighting in another Otherworld Tournament, Vegeta's still dead, Goten & Trunks know fusion, Gohan & Videl are clearly dating, other movie villains appearing in the army of the dead, Goku going SS3 against Buu being explicitly mentioned by him, etc. Because of this, yeah, no. Fun movie, but a headache of discrepancies.

Wrath of the Dragon. COULD take place a few months after the defeat of Buu. However, Trunks gets Tapion's sword which he's never shown to have in Super & Bulma somehow has a time machine good to go & this is 2 decades before Toei would add the retcon of Bulma having the time machine Cell took back from Trunks (which, btw, given how Trunks still had it in the Super manga instead shows that that wasn't Toriyama's idea), so that wasn't the intent the writers had. Clearly, it was supposed to be a brand new time machine invented by the main timeline's Bulma.

The point in explaining these things is that when it came to the movies, the producers & writers at Toei didn't give ANY shits about timeline consistency with these movies. If they could slot them in anywhere for timeskips, great, but if the timeline got in the way of them telling the story they wanted to, they said, "Fuck it." Given they had to crank 2 movies out per year during Z's run in Japan, I'm not surprised that that was the mentality. The movies were more excuses to write a movie-length story with the characters so the kids who loved the show or manga could have something exciting to see in a movie theater during the school holidays, meant to not be thought of in these ways. They're meant to be little bursts of fun with the characters we know & love fighting new enemies (who're more often than not just remixes of series villains) in places that we don't see much, if ever, in the show or manga. GT attempting to canon weld some of the movies into its timeline just brings about a bunch of headaches. Granted, I'm pretty sure the only one they really reference directly rather than just taking shit from them is the first Cooler movie, as Cooler in his 5th form is the only one they show, iirc.

This is the reason they were completely ok with doing Kai & allowing Super to take GT's place in the pantheon of Z sequels. They wanted Toriyama to be involved with the writing of a new DB anime, but he wasn't interested in 2008, so they had Kai made. Then, when Toriyama was actually wanting to BE directly involved, they let him have at it. They had a policy of "Fuck it" when it came to certain things with Z, but they know fans appreciate continuity & consistency with the older materials written by Toriyama given how badly GT crashed & burned, so they were perfectly willing to disregard their prior stuff when it came to these things rather than try to make them all fit in 1 timeline. I think even the writers & producers who worked on the movies would say as much if asked.

[Kenji]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity. The inconsistencies don't matter, because Toei never cared about them to begin with.

Yeah, no. I don't know why some people have this mentality with non-serial movies that clearly have continuity issues with the main series they're spawned from. There's even a video that goes over all of the reasons why the movies can't happen.
https://youtu.be/hSt85B-ayCA?si=tY6edyxkcvJ3b-ce

*snip*

OK, let me put it through another angle:
Do you personally believe the modern Z Movies (BoG/RoF), Daima and Super take place in the same universe/continuity?
Furthermore, do you believe they take place in the same universe/continuity as the manga?

I can list you a million reasons why they can't possibly connect to the manga due to contradictions with the manga's ending, or even with each other. The countless debates about whether Daima connects to Super or not are still happening because Super Saiyan 4 invalidates Goku's claims that Super Saiyan 3 is his strongest form, Shin and Kibito still being fused by the time Super happens, etc.

You can very much argue that the contradictions and inconsistencies between themselves and the manga would invalidate them from being in the same continuity, however, why else would Daima take place in Universe 7, and introduce elements that were introduced in Super's guidebooks, like the claims that Namekians actually come from the Demon Realm or Shin actually belongs to a race of tree-born people?

Whether it's the same continuity or not, I can't claim for sure, because I'm not a person of authority who works with Dragon Ball.
But from my perspective, Toriyama clearly intended those to take place in the very same universe, and I'm sure if not for legal battles, Daima would've been yet another Super sub-series.

You can apply the same logic to the original anime trilogy released by Toei and their movies.
The fact that the Z movies kept connecting to anime-exclusive content, and vice-versa, shows that both were very much written with the clear intention of taking place in the very same universe.

"But things don't match 100% with the official timeline!"
So what? That's never been the case, not with the Z anime and its movies, and definitely not now with Modern Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

The point I'm trying to make here is that the original DB+Z+Movies+GT anime adaptation was always intended by Toei to be one single unified continuity. The inconsistencies don't matter, because Toei never cared about them to begin with.

Yeah, no. I don't know why some people have this mentality with non-serial movies that clearly have continuity issues with the main series they're spawned from.

I think the issue is you’re arguing fans are insisting that the movies fit without issue. Nobody is saying that. We’re saying as far as Toei is concerned the movies still happened regardless if it makes no sense.

. It's for those reasons I believe the movie was intended to take place after the Cell Games & the writers accidentally shot themselves in the foot thinking Goku would survive that battle, so people assume it takes place where I said it actually could because it also adds on the continuity error of Goku not being dead again.

The movie is meant to take place in late March; the characters are observing Hanami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanami and Chi Chi states at the end of the movie that Gohan’s spring break is over. It’s also why she’s trying to get Gohan enrolled in a prestigious cram school before the start of the school year in April.

That is to say you are right it’s definitely meant to take place after, 10 months after the Cell saga’s May date,
and Toei didn’t account for Goku being dead because the movie was written, produced, and released before that happened.

And that’s the post-Garlic movies in general. They’re all
meant to take place after “current story arc going at the time” and occasionally try to account for future events when they can (examples: Yamucha’s Kaio kanji in Tree of Might, Dende as the current God of earth) but then the actual story unfolds and makes it so the movies don’t work at all and Toei just shrugs and still refers to the movies as having happened when it’s convenient for them i.e when they’re writing original material not bound by the manga.


But the movies, and filler, and padding, and GT aren’t occurring in some “pocket dimension”’ or “alternate universe “ they just…exist.

[Grimlock]

Yeah, no. I don't know why some people have this mentality with non-serial movies that clearly have continuity issues with the main series they're spawned from. There's even a video that goes over all of the reasons why the movies can't happen.
https://youtu.be/hSt85B-ayCA?si=tY6edyxkcvJ3b-ce

No willingness and effort to explain how the movies contradict each other? That would be cool to read.

OK, let me put it through another angle:
Do you personally believe the modern Z Movies (BoG/RoF), Daima and Super take place in the same universe/continuity?
Furthermore, do you believe they take place in the same universe/continuity as the manga?

I can list you a million reasons why they can't possibly connect to the manga due to contradictions with the manga's ending

That Dragon Ball Daima and Dragon Ball Super contradict each other is quite clear, but I'm not sure if the former has problems with the manga. How does Dragon Ball Daima contradict the ending, exactly?

I can't claim for sure, because I'm not a person of authority who works with Dragon Ball.

There should be more people like you. Why aren't there more people like you?

[Koitsukai]

That Dragon Ball Daima and Dragon Ball Super contradict each other is quite clear, but I'm not sure if the former has problems with the manga. How does Dragon Ball Daima contradict the ending, exactly?

One that pops to mind is that Bulma looks clearly aged in EoZ, which shouldn't be the case if she bought those de-aging bugs on the Demon Realm.

[Kenji]

That Dragon Ball Daima and Dragon Ball Super contradict each other is quite clear, but I'm not sure if the former has problems with the manga. How does Dragon Ball Daima contradict the ending, exactly?

I meant that more in the sense of Daima, the Super anime, the Super manga, the Super movies, BoG and RoF, Jaco, Dragon Ball Minus and everything else you could possibly add to this list sharing a single unified universe, despite clear inconsistencies and creative liberties preventing it from making perfect and total sense within the original timeline.

But if you take Daima as an individual continuity, yeah, it doesn't go out of its way to invalidate the manga's claims that no crazy shit happened in-between the Boo arc the epilogue, and the characters haven't seen each other since then.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama being loose about continuity isn't exactly new. Did he think through the ramifications of the inconsistencies? No, he doesn't give a shit. We can't expect him to have our sense of precisely wanting to have consistency, because he was never that kind of guy and clearly could have done so if he wanted to. If Toriyama wanted to have the original comic, Daima and Super all be separate continuities, we would have consistent messaging about that sort of thing. Dragon Ball isn't Star Wars or Marvel or some other shit, it's, "Here's the new story, now leave me alone to build my airplane models!"

[Kenji]

Toriyama being loose about continuity isn't exactly new. Did he think through the ramifications of the inconsistencies? No, he doesn't give a shit. We can't expect him to have our sense of precisely wanting to have consistency, because he was never that kind of guy and clearly could have done so if he wanted to. If Toriyama wanted to have the original comic, Daima and Super all be separate continuities, we would have consistent messaging about that sort of thing. Dragon Ball isn't Star Wars or Marvel or some other shit, it's, "Here's the new story, now leave me alone to build my airplane models!"

Exactly, and my point is that it's through that same mindset Toei was operating in the 90's.
Whenever somebody asks "Is this canon/in-continuity?" One simple, effective way to tell is this:

Do you feel the story is complete with/without this product?
Let's take GT for example: You can't tell someone who's only read the manga to watch GT, otherwise they'd be left scratching their heads wondering why a jar of water that's supposed to either make you 10x stronger or kill you is suddenly curing people out of alien parasite infection. That's because GT isn't a sequel to the manga, it's a sequel to the anime.

GT's story is incomplete without the anime, and the anime's story in turn (supposing you're taking it in full and not skipping the filler content) is incomplete without the movies. Hence why I say the 90's anime adaptation and its movies makes for one single unified continuity despite what modern Dragon Ball has produced decades later or Toriyama's own feelings on that matter (him saying the movies take place in a separate universe). Being one single unified continuity was Toei's original intention, at least.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama being loose about continuity isn't exactly new. Did he think through the ramifications of the inconsistencies? No, he doesn't give a shit. We can't expect him to have our sense of precisely wanting to have consistency, because he was never that kind of guy and clearly could have done so if he wanted to. If Toriyama wanted to have the original comic, Daima and Super all be separate continuities, we would have consistent messaging about that sort of thing. Dragon Ball isn't Star Wars or Marvel or some other shit, it's, "Here's the new story, now leave me alone to build my airplane models!"

Exactly, and my point is that it's through that same mindset Toei was operating in the 90's.
Whenever somebody asks "Is this canon/in-continuity?" One simple, effective way to tell is this:

Do you feel the story is complete with/without this product?
Let's take GT for example: You can't tell someone who's only read the manga to watch GT, otherwise they'd be left scratching their heads wondering why a jar of water that's supposed to either make you 10x stronger or kill you is suddenly curing people out of alien parasite infection. That's because GT isn't a sequel to the manga, it's a sequel to the anime.

GT's story is incomplete without the anime, and the anime's story in turn (supposing you're taking it in full and not skipping the filler content) is incomplete without the movies. Hence why I say the 90's anime adaptation and its movies makes for one single unified continuity despite what modern Dragon Ball has produced decades later or Toriyama's own feelings on that matter (him saying the movies take place in a separate universe). Being one single unified continuity was Toei's original intention, at least.

Pretty much. I think, ultimately, the best way to look at all of this nonsense is that the Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, the movies and Dragon Ball GT are all targeted to one audience, while Dragon Ball Kai and Dragon Ball Super are targeted to a different audience. In the former, Toei Animation knew that the audience they were targeting didn't think about the connecting details—they were not constantly spot-checking episodes and films for continuity errors because it was the 1990s and nobody owned the animated projects outside of—maybe—renting or buying one of the movies on VHS, if they had the money. There's all just a vague conciousness about these things and the fine print doesn't matter.

[Hellspawn28]

I always felt like Coola's cameo was nothing more than just fan service that they added. Not actually being like, "This movie actually happened!". Reminds me how the 1998 Godzilla show up in Godzilla: Final Wars as a fun fan service thing.

[90sDBZ]

I always assumed Broly didn't appear with the former villains in GT because he was too significant a character to be relagated to a background cameo. If he were on the loose it would've warranted more screen time, which would distract from the main story. Frieza and Cell served as the major returning bads, so adding Broly to the mix might've made things feel bloated.

It's probably also the reason we didn't see Baby return either. He'd just had his arc, and having him return with his abilities would've made the arc extremely messy. From an in universe perspective we're never given a reason why he isn't in Hell with the other villains.