GT treating the Z movies as having happened

[Scsigs]

The show is pretty squarely Gokuu Time once Gokuu returns to Earth. Most of the previous episodes are skipped for being boring.

I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but this sounds a bit hypocritical.
The show is "Goku Time" because it doesn't focus on other characters, and then it's "boring" and "worthy to skip" when it does?

You do understand that the series shifts to focusing mostly on Goku as the main character, right? I'm pretty sure I explained that already.

I mean, that's the paradox of GT. A lot of the first 15 episodes are boring to a lot of people. That's not just an opinion held by viewers, the writers themselves literally gave up on writing those kinds of stories & pivoted to more Z-styled storytelling & action after they deemed the early episodes boring themselves, saying something along the lines of, "There's no way we can make these stories interesting, can we?"

As for hypocrisy, it's not. Concept VS Execution is the name of the game here. GT is full of that, with the common consensus being "Great ideas, poor execution." I don't think anyone was really wanting the series to mostly focus on Goku either. People just want good storytelling & characters that they like doing entertaining things. It's not hypocritical to say, "GT pivots to mostly focusing on Goku, but it's boring." That's not hypocrisy, that's an observation & an opinion on said observation. It's pointing out what the series does, then reacting poorly to it. There's an actual logic to it & I don't think you're thinking it through.

[Kenji]

I sincerely apologize if I came off as combative and dismissive right there.

And yes, it's not hypocritical to say both "GT pivots to focusing mostly on Goku" and "The early episodes are boring."
Both things can be true, depending on one's experience.

However, the point I was trying to make is, although Goku does have privileged screen-time and battle competency, a fact the producers admitted as much, the story itself focuses mainly on other characters, subjects and messaging.

For the first 22 episodes, the message was that you should be more considerate of what your friends are feeling (Pan and Giru's relationship, and Giru's subsequent not-betrayal)
For the entirety of the Baby arc, the messaging was that seeking revenge only makes you become the monster you swore to destroy.
Super 17 has no message, fuck that arc.
And the message of the Evil Dragons arc is that you should not rely on magic to fix your problems and work hard to achieve them.

The entire show is also told through the perspective of a little girl who starts out hating her grandpa and slowly grows to idolize him, and is now reminiscing back on how great they were now that they're gone. And yes, it's a complete Titanic ripoff.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's disingenuous to reduce the entirety of GT's story and nuance to "Goku is stronger than everyone else, that's it, that's all that GT has to offer." When there is actually much more beneath the surface, which is probably why I feel frustrated when I hear this complaint specifically. Dragon Ball is not about just fighting and flashy transformations and nothing else, and I only wish fans would learn to appreciate these other elements more often.

Once again, I apologize for coming off as combative and dismissive.

[ABED]

The show is pretty squarely Gokuu Time once Gokuu returns to Earth. Most of the previous episodes are skipped for being boring.

I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but this sounds a bit hypocritical.
The show is "Goku Time" because it doesn't focus on other characters, and then it's "boring" and "worthy to skip" when it does?

You do understand that the series shifts to focusing mostly on Goku as the main character, right? I'm pretty sure I explained that already.

I mean, that's the paradox of GT. A lot of the first 15 episodes are boring to a lot of people. That's not just an opinion held by viewers, the writers themselves literally gave up on writing those kinds of stories & pivoted to more Z-styled storytelling & action after they deemed the early episodes boring themselves, saying something along the lines of, "There's no way we can make these stories interesting, can we?"

As for hypocrisy, it's not. Concept VS Execution is the name of the game here. GT is full of that, with the common consensus being "Great ideas, poor execution." I don't think anyone was really wanting the series to mostly focus on Goku either. People just want good storytelling & characters that they like doing entertaining things. It's not hypocritical to say, "GT pivots to mostly focusing on Goku, but it's boring." That's not hypocrisy, that's an observation & an opinion on said observation. It's pointing out what the series does, then reacting poorly to it. There's an actual logic to it & I don't think you're thinking it through.

The biggest issue is the quality of the fights. If nothing else changed besides that, GT would be held in much higher regard. It's not because Goku supposedly become the focus. he was always the main character. That isn't where the problems are stemming from.

[Kid Buu]

I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but this sounds a bit hypocritical.
The show is "Goku Time" because it doesn't focus on other characters, and then it's "boring" and "worthy to skip" when it does?

You do understand that the series shifts to focusing mostly on Goku as the main character, right? I'm pretty sure I explained that already.

I mean, that's the paradox of GT. A lot of the first 15 episodes are boring to a lot of people. That's not just an opinion held by viewers, the writers themselves literally gave up on writing those kinds of stories & pivoted to more Z-styled storytelling & action after they deemed the early episodes boring themselves, saying something along the lines of, "There's no way we can make these stories interesting, can we?"

As for hypocrisy, it's not. Concept VS Execution is the name of the game here. GT is full of that, with the common consensus being "Great ideas, poor execution." I don't think anyone was really wanting the series to mostly focus on Goku either. People just want good storytelling & characters that they like doing entertaining things. It's not hypocritical to say, "GT pivots to mostly focusing on Goku, but it's boring." That's not hypocrisy, that's an observation & an opinion on said observation. It's pointing out what the series does, then reacting poorly to it. There's an actual logic to it & I don't think you're thinking it through.

The biggest issue is the quality of the fights. If nothing else changed besides that, GT would be held in much higher regard. It's not because Goku supposedly become the focus. he was always the main character. That isn't where the problems are stemming from.

That's one thing I do agree. Only Goku Vs. Bebi felt like a grand scale fight. I also enjoy Goku Vs. Freeza/Cell, but that one is more of a gag than an epic fight.

[Zebra]

I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but this sounds a bit hypocritical.
The show is "Goku Time" because it doesn't focus on other characters, and then it's "boring" and "worthy to skip" when it does?

The earlier episodes aren't boring because they supposedly focused more on the other characters. They were boring because they didn't have much action, basically being a half-assed rehash of the Pilaf arc. Gokuu pulling out that giant's tooth, Trunks crossdressing, the Para Para Brothers, etc. Shit was terrible.

Once the show gets remotely interesting, it basically becomes Gokuu Time.

And everyone else's role during Namek was getting their asses kicked waiting for Goku to arrive to deal with Vegeta/the Ginyu Force, and then it became everyone else getting their asses kicked waiting for Goku to heal in a tube. And then it became everyone else dying so Goku could become stronger out of anger.

Yes, the original manga was largely Gokuu Time, too. Fans tend to overrate the significance of the other characters. But the other characters get more spotlight in DBZ than in GT. They usually jobbed in the end, but they did get "cool" moments here and there. Vegeeta killing Doduria, Zarbon, Jheese, and Nineteen, and stomping Semiperfect Cell. Trunks killing Freeza and Cold. Gohan killing the Cell Juniors and Cell, and stomping Super Boo. Gotenks overwhelming Super Boo. Piccolo tying with Seventeen.

The only time it felt like someone other than Gokuu got thrown a bone like that was maybe when Oob fused with Boo. Even though he lost to Baby in the end, he put up an okay-ish fight before getting turned into chocolate. It's akin to Piccolo putting up a decent fight against Form 2 Freeza before getting stomped by Form 3. But the only reason Oob got to look good here was because Baby didn't take him seriously until the end, so eh.

I don't think moments like these are all that important, though, and I don't think GT would've been significantly better if the other characters got to kick more ass. But you could've at least let the other characters beat the other Evil Dragons instead of giving all of them to Gokuu (granted, Pan helped out with one or two, iirc, but was helpless against the ones who weren't fodder). SS4 Vegeeta jobbing to the Four Star Dragon was just embarrassing.

Every single character did exactly just that, together, multiple times.

Because they weren't strong enough to hurt Super Seventeen with physical blows. Goten, Trunks, Oob, Vegeeta, Gohan, etc. They were all fodder. SS4 Gokuu was the only one who wasn't, and all he did was blast Super Seventeen over and over again like an idiot.

And I do believe (if my mind isn't playing tricks on me), Goku as SSJ4 did try to use teleportation to get close to him and kick his head off, but he was too fast and Goku could barely see his movements (Dragon Ball recurring gag, I know).

By then, he already filled up Super Seventeen with so much energy that he could no longer hurt him.

If he went SS4 at the start of the fight and stuck to physical blows only, he would've easily defeated Super Seventeen.

That boy in the wheelchair? He wouldn't even be alive to give his energy at all if Pan didn't stop the others to save him.

It doesn't matter if one weak alien doesn't donate his energy.

Pan had nothing to do with Earth, Nameck, and everyone in the Afterworld donating. And it's not like she was the only one who saved aliens in the first arc.

This is not an exaggeration, this is exactly how the first arc, her character and her entire role in their "Grand Tour" was written to be.
The Universal Genki Dama worked because Pan had such a role in the "Grand Tour" arc.

There's no direct correlation between what happened in one arc and another one later down the line. When it actually came time for Gokuu to make the Universal Genkidama, Pan did nothing at all.

A character can pave the way for something to happen later down the line, but that's not the same as them doing anything when it actually happens. It was sheer coincidence that Gokuu and co. had friends all over the universe when the Universal Genkidama was made.

Or do you honestly believe that without Mr. Satan, Goku would've been able to defeat Majin Boo?

Mr. Satan actively persuaded people to donate their energy to the Genkidama. That's not what Pan did.

But you're reducing her entire character and her role in the story to her fighting prowess, which is not much better.

At the end of the day, that's all most people really care about when it comes to Dragon Ball. Fighting. Hence the early episodes of GT being so unpopular (and largely skipped by Funimation).

[Kenji]

Because they weren't strong enough to hurt Super Seventeen with physical blows. Goten, Trunks, Oob, Vegeeta, Gohan, etc. They were all fodder.

Oob was shown in GT as being on par with Base Adult Goku (1st episode)
Then as being on par with Super Baby 2 after fusing with Majin Boo (who SSJ3 Kid Goku struggled against)

SS4 Gokuu was the only one who wasn't, and all he did was blast Super Seventeen over and over again like an idiot. By then, he already filled up Super Seventeen with so much energy that he could no longer hurt him.

And yet, Super 17 got defeated by Base Kid Goku.
Who's weaker than Oob, who attacked him physically, along with several others, and the effect was nothing.

There's no direct correlation between what happened in one arc and another one later down the line.

...Who are all the characters shown in the montage supposed to be, then?
Why are they all donating energy to this Goku guy if nothing in the 1st arc even mattered for this scene to happen?

At the end of the day, that's all most people really care about when it comes to Dragon Ball. Fighting. Hence the early episodes of GT being so unpopular (and largely skipped by Funimation).

And I would argue that's very unfortunate, but hey, people like what they like, and they have several diversified reasons to come to Dragon Ball for, and we have to respect that. I can respect a person who dislikes GT based on the sole opinion that the fighting sucks or focuses too much on a single character, that's completely valid. Though I also have to respectfully disagree when someone claims Goku is the only relevant or "useful" character in the story, given there are numerous times he'd be dead if others didn't intervene.

[Zebra]

Oob was shown in GT as being on par with Base Adult Goku (1st episode)
Then as being on par with Super Baby 2 after fusing with Majin Boo (who SSJ3 Kid Goku struggled against)

He wasn't really on par with Super Baby 2 after fusing with Boo; Baby was toying with him. As soon as Baby got serious, Oob was finished.

Regardless, the Super Seventeen arc turned Oob into straight-up fodder. Even Vegeeta surpassed him as a mere SS1/2.

And yet, Super 17 got defeated by Base Kid Goku.
Who's weaker than Oob, who attacked him physically, along with several others, and the effect was nothing.

I'd wager that base Gokuu is stronger than Oob after the Baby arc.

Super Seventeen is vulnerable to physical attacks when he's absorbing energy. But that doesn't mean you can't simply kill him with a punch if you're much stronger than him. SS4 Gokuu was definitely stronger than him at first.

...Who are all the characters shown in the montage supposed to be, then?
Why are they all donating energy to this Goku guy if nothing in the 1st arc even mattered for this scene to happen?

Again, there's no direct correlation between the events of the first arc and the events of the last arc. Nobody was expecting or planning Gokuu to make a Universal Genkidama against some uber strong evil dragon back in the first arc. And it's silly to give Pan all the credit in the first arc, too.

And I would argue that's very unfortunate

Not really. The plot in Dragon Ball has always been nonsensical, GT being among the worst offenders. When you look at how stupid the pre-Planet M2 episodes or the Super Seventeen and Evil Dragon arcs are, you can't blame people for only caring about the fight scenes.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball GT's worst offenses—barring queerphobia and racist shit—is how it handled Pan and completely dropped having a planned character arc for her and developing her as the co-lead. Gohan et al ultimately doing nothing of consequence for the twentieth time is pretty much small potatoes in comparison.

[The Dark Knight]

Dragon Ball GT's worst offenses—barring queerphobia and racist shit—is how it handled Pan and completely dropped having a planned character arc for her and developing her as the co-lead.

GT had all the pieces to make it just as good as what came before it, but somehow they managed to drop nearly every piece they had in the toilet. A proper arc for Pan, even if nothing else in the show changes, would've gone a long way in improving its quality. It does seem like Pan will get that long awaited character arc in Super, but who knows what they'll do now that Toriyama is no longer with us.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball GT's worst offenses—barring queerphobia and racist shit—is how it handled Pan and completely dropped having a planned character arc for her and developing her as the co-lead.

GT had all the pieces to make it just as good as what came before it, but somehow they managed to drop nearly every piece they had in the toilet. A proper arc for Pan, even if nothing else in the show changes, would've gone a long way in improving its quality. It does seem like Pan will get that long awaited character arc in Super, but who knows what they'll do now that Toriyama is no longer with us.

If I had to guess, Matsui Aya leaving the series for maternity leave early on probably killed any chance of Pan having cool shit to do post-Episode #22.

[Zebra]

Pan never had much potential based on what we saw of the other Earthling/Saiyan mixes. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't inherit the same passion for fighting that their Saiyan fathers had; there's no reason to think Pan would be any different, especially when she's only a quarter Saiyan.

Toriyama was the one who came up with her GT design, and nothing about it came across like a warrior or martial artist at all. She just looked like a typical delinquent. Overall, she wasn't treated much worse than the other side characters; they were all pretty useless in GT. At least her presence could be felt more than the rest throughout the show, even though she was just an annoying damsel-in-distress.

[The Dark Knight]

Pan never had much potential based on what we saw of the other Earthling/Saiyan mixes. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't inherit the same passion for fighting that their Saiyan fathers had; there's no reason to think Pan would be any different, especially when she's only a quarter Saiyan.

Gohan was the first to unlock Ssj2 and was able to defeat a main manga villain in Cell and two movie villains in Bojack and Broly. Gotenks was able to unlock Ssj3 in a matter of weeks, while Goku took years to discover it and Vegeta took anywhere between 6 and 9 months to reach it himself. The reason Pan didn't amount to anything was because the writers wanted the focus to be exclusively on Goku.

[Zebra]

Pan never had much potential based on what we saw of the other Earthling/Saiyan mixes. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't inherit the same passion for fighting that their Saiyan fathers had; there's no reason to think Pan would be any different, especially when she's only a quarter Saiyan.

Gohan was the first to unlock Ssj2 and was able to defeat a main manga villain in Cell and two movie villains in Bojack and Broly.

Gohan retired from fighting to become a scholar.

Gotenks was able to unlock Ssj3 in a matter of weeks, while Goku took years to discover it and Vegeta took anywhere between 6 and 9 months to reach it himself.

Cheap to compare Gokuu and Vegeeta to a fusion. And in the Toeiverse, SS3 Gokuu is far stronger than SS3 Gotenks, anyway.

By the end of the manga, Goten and Trunks have become slackers who don't train much.

The reason Pan didn't amount to anything was because the writers wanted the focus to be exclusively on Goku.

There was never any reason to expect her to amount to much, though. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks don't have much passion for fighting; why would Pan be any different? GT being Goku Time was pretty in line with the end of the Boo arc.

Oob was definitely shafted, since he was supposed to be Gokuu's disciple with crazy potential as the reincarnation of Pure Boo, but the series already tried that "passing the torch" thing with Gohan and it didn't work. There was no point in trying it again with Oob. You may as well just keep the focus on Gokuu since he's the mascot of the franchise.

[The Dark Knight]

There was never any reason to expect her to amount her to much. All the other characters were shafted in favor of Gokuu by the end of the Boo arc.

They still got plenty of moments to shine despite that, so there's no reason why Pan (or anyone in GT) couldn't have been treated the same. No one is saying she should've defeated Omega Shenron, but would her getting Ssj1 and winning against one of the side villains be too much to ask for ?

[Zebra]

There was never any reason to expect her to amount her to much. All the other characters were shafted in favor of Gokuu by the end of the Boo arc.

They still got plenty of moments to shine despite that, so there's no reason why Pan (or anyone in GT) couldn't have been treated the same. No one is saying she should've defeated Omega Shenron, but would her getting Ssj1 and winning against one of the side villains be too much to ask for ?

She did beat one of the Sigma robots. And she helped take down one or some of the Evil Dragons.

Her not turning Super Saiyan was sexist, but she'd have still been fodder with it.

[JulieYBM]

Pan never had much potential based on what we saw of the other Earthling/Saiyan mixes. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't inherit the same passion for fighting that their Saiyan fathers had; there's no reason to think Pan would be any different, especially when she's only a quarter Saiyan.

Toriyama was the one who came up with her GT design, and nothing about it came across like a warrior or martial artist at all. She just looked like a typical delinquent. Overall, she wasn't treated much worse than the other side characters; they were all pretty useless in GT. At least her presence could be felt more than the rest throughout the show, even though she was just an annoying damsel-in-distress.

None of that is important. Pan was clearly co-lead with established flaws that she needed to grow from. In a series about fighting, she would be seen developing in part by fighting foes and growing from it. Instead of having growth both in-and-out of battle, her relevance beomes strickly serving as a damsel in distress and catalyst for Gokuu to have cheap motivation for winning mostly otherwise empty battles that ultimately mean nothing, because Gokuu doesn't ever really change in the grand scheme of things. It's the same issue as in Daima and Super: Gokuu beats the antagonist and doesn't really grow and change, in place of letting someone else do so and change.

[Kid Buu]

Dragon Ball GT's worst offenses—barring queerphobia and racist shit—is how it handled Pan and completely dropped having a planned character arc for her and developing her as the co-lead. Gohan et al ultimately doing nothing of consequence for the twentieth time is pretty much small potatoes in comparison.

You know I actually really enjoyed Pan's personality and character design and do wish she got a bit more development. I definitely prefer her as a kid protagonist than Gohan and Goten.

Yes, the original manga was largely Gokuu Time, too. Fans tend to overrate the significance of the other characters. But the other characters get more spotlight in DBZ than in GT. They usually jobbed in the end, but they did get "cool" moments here and there. Vegeeta killing Doduria, Zarbon, Jheese, and Nineteen, and stomping Semiperfect Cell. Trunks killing Freeza and Cold. Gohan killing the Cell Juniors and Cell, and stomping Super Boo. Gotenks overwhelming Super Boo. Piccolo tying with Seventeen.

I would definitely say early Namek (pre-Ginyu Force) is Vegeta's story and the early Buu arc is Gohan's. Outside of that most of Z is either Goku time or waiting for Goku time.

[Zebra]

Pan never had much potential based on what we saw of the other Earthling/Saiyan mixes. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't inherit the same passion for fighting that their Saiyan fathers had; there's no reason to think Pan would be any different, especially when she's only a quarter Saiyan.

Toriyama was the one who came up with her GT design, and nothing about it came across like a warrior or martial artist at all. She just looked like a typical delinquent. Overall, she wasn't treated much worse than the other side characters; they were all pretty useless in GT. At least her presence could be felt more than the rest throughout the show, even though she was just an annoying damsel-in-distress.

None of that is important. Pan was clearly co-lead with established flaws that she needed to grow from. In a series about fighting, she would be seen developing in part by fighting foes and growing from it.

She never had much room for growth when she lacked a real passion for fighting. Ultimately, she was just too weak to keep up with Gokuu, and we all knew she wasn't going to catch up when Vegeeta, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Oob, etc hadn't.

When so many other side characters were already given the shaft, it's no surprise Pan didn't amount to much.

Instead of having growth both in-and-out of battle, her relevance beomes strickly serving as a damsel in distress and catalyst for Gokuu to have cheap motivation for winning mostly otherwise empty battles that ultimately mean nothing, because Gokuu doesn't ever really change in the grand scheme of things. It's the same issue as in Daima and Super: Gokuu beats the antagonist and doesn't really grow and change, in place of letting someone else do so and change.

That's just how Dragon Ball has mostly always been. Everyone else sucks to make Gokuu look better.

I would definitely say early Namek (pre-Ginyu Force) is Vegeta's story and the early Buu arc is Gohan's. Outside of that most of Z is either Goku time or waiting for Goku time.

Vegeeta was an antagonist in the Freeza arc. He got to kill a few minor villains, but he was never a protagonist.

[Kid Buu]

Vegeeta was an antagonist in the Freeza arc. He got to kill a few minor villains, but he was never a protagonist.

Fair enough he wasn't a protagonist but he served a purpose in the story without it coming across as "the plot is just stalling until Goku returns".

[Zebra]

Vegeeta was an antagonist in the Freeza arc. He got to kill a few minor villains, but he was never a protagonist.

Fair enough he wasn't a protagonist but he served a purpose in the story without it coming across as "the plot is just stalling until Goku returns".

I mean, it's mostly just Gohan and Kurilin hiding from Vegeeta while he kills Freeza's fodder henchmen (only Zarbon wasn't totally pathetic). A pretty tedious game of cat-and-mouse.

The whole time, it's building up to Gokuu finally arriving and saving the day.