New transformation progression tree

[BernardoCairo]

Something that caught my attention in the 40th anniversary video was that, in Goku's transformation sequence, they chose to skip Super Saiyajin 2 and 3. He went straight from Super Saiyajin to Super Saiyajin God.
I'm not suggesting they're deemphasizing Super Saiyajin 2 and 3 (not after the big splash they made with Super Saiyajin 3 Vegeta last year), but I wonder if that's the direction Dragon Ball Super, specifically, is heading. We've already seen this in the Broly movie. Both Goku and Vegeta gradually increased their power, going from base form to Super Saiyajin, God, and finally, Blue. There's a very clear progression tree happening there.
As far as Dragon Ball Super is concerned, I believe they will continue to go in that direction. These will be the "core" forms. And with stuff like Daima, they may explore the classics and the new Super Saiyajin 4 more.

[Koitsukai]

Tori said years ago that SS2 and SS3 were variants, enhancements of the regular Super Saiyan. And that by mastering SS, the user could muster up all the power SS2 and SS3 provide without their energy drawbacks, that is looking and requiring the energy for SS but being as strong as SS3.
Was this ever followed up, did it ever leave the realm of that interview? Unclear, but we've seen SS2 Vegeta use a power beyond SS3, the same for Trunks.
And in the Broly movie, SS Vegeta fights a Broly that was one power up away from being too much for SSG. It could be that SS Vegeta wasn't as strong as the regular SS, but as strong as a hypothetical SS3 Vegeta, or maybe more.

It doesn't really apply to the manga or the anime, only to the movies.

[super michael]

Tori said years ago that SS2 and SS3 were variants, enhancements of the regular Super Saiyan. And that by mastering SS, the user could muster up all the power SS2 and SS3 provide without their energy drawbacks, that is looking and requiring the energy for SS but being as strong as SS3.
Was this ever followed up, did it ever leave the realm of that interview? Unclear, but we've seen SS2 Vegeta use a power beyond SS3, the same for Trunks.
And in the Broly movie, SS Vegeta fights a Broly that was one power up away from being too much for SSG. It could be that SS Vegeta wasn't as strong as the regular SS, but as strong as a hypothetical SS3 Vegeta, or maybe more.

It doesn't really apply to the manga or the anime, only to the movies.

Vegeta needed SSG to fight Ikari Broly, while Base Goku was able to dodge, deflect and tank Ikari Broly. I don't think they put any thought into power scale, they wanted to make the fight look cool.

[Alruneia]

Toriyama definitely wanted to simplify the transformations down to just SS, SSG and SSGSS after Battle of Gods (and eventually UI on top of that I guess). I think that in Toriyama's version of every story since then, Goku and Vegeta never used SS2 or SS3, he always thought of Goku and Vegeta's "transformation tree" as just SS -> SSG -> SSGSS after that interview Koitsukai brought up. The problem is just that the concept of Goku and Vegeta mastering "regular SS" to the point where SS2 and SS3 are unnecessary kinda never actually happens. It doesn't seem like Toriyama went out of his way to force that idea into any DBS story arc, because even though both the Super manga and anime had time to address it, it's never brought up. Instead, Toei's writers and Toyotaro kinda go out of their way to make sure SS2 Goku/Vegeta and SS3 Goku keep popping up. So I think Toriyama's idea of SS -> SSG -> SSGSS got overridden in the DBS manga and anime, and that only leaves movies and other special stuff, which is why we do see it in DBS: Broly, and now also in this anniversary video I guess. Are Toei's writers and Toyotaro going to start sticking to the idea now? Maybe. Probably not if I had to guess. But it was Toriyama's intention the whole time.

[Grimlock]

Not even Super Saiyan God was intended to be a part of this. It was originally conceived to be a one-time transformation only, with its power absorbed, thus rendering the form itself pointless. In fact, Toriyama said Goku wouldn't need to transform into it anymore.

It was supposed to be: Saiyan beyond God )---> Super Saiyan )---> Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

But, of course, marketing wouldn't have any of this. You can't sell stuff if they are not making appearances on-screen.

[Skar]

That progression might've also applied to the Champa arc because Goku and Vegeta only used regular SSJ1 and Blue in both versions and Goku using SSJG in-between in the manga. I think it would be difficult to apply to the rest of the remastered anime since they would have to reanimate a few fights. In the Future Trunks arc, I think it would just be the sparing match between Goku and Trunks. In the ToP, I forgot how many times SSJ2 and 3 were used. I remember Goku used SSJ3 once to show it off to Caulifa then progressing through all his forms against Jiren.

I think one change in the Beerus arc might be that Goku doesn't absorb SSJG's power like what happened in the manga. That was a cause of some confusing back then because Goku still had god powered base in the RoF arc but then SSJG reappeared later in the anime.

[JulieYBM]

The use of Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 in the 2015 anime and the comic always felt very much like, "Hey, Bandai is asking us to include these forms so that they can eventually sell more merchandise, so I guess we'll do it." This feels especially true once Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-Ken and then the Future Trunks arc and Tournament of Power roll around. By the time we get to Super: Broly, what do we have? Just Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue again, because the script is mostly just being followed in the storyboard. The simplified structure makes the fights flow a lot better, which is why I'm always in favor of folding old forms into the Saiyans' base forms.

By the time of Super Hero, I really don't think we need for Gohan to have his Super Saiyan and 'Ultimate' forms if he now has Beast. One transformation is enough! Gokuu and Vegeta just need Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct/Ego, until they have new forms past Ultra Instinct/Ego, then Blue can be added to their base forms. At least Nagamine had a methodology to Super Saiyan God and Blue both being different types of forms with different abilities, which made having both of those forms in Super: Broly feel like they worked.

[WittyUsername]

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 getting sidelined has been a pretty common thing in the Super era, going all the way back to BoG. Notice how when Goku lost the Super Saiyan God transformation in his fight with Beerus, he stuck with using the regular Super Saiyan form, instead of 2 or 3?

Speaking of which, as others have pointed out, SSG was indeed supposed to be a one-time transformation. That’s why, if I recall, a lot of people were surprised to see the form pop back up again in the Tournament of Power.

[Grimlock]

I was the only one who pointed it out.

Either way, it's more that Toriyama sidelined Super Saiyan 2 and 3 (wise decision for the latter, not so much for the former). Toei and Toyotaro kept bringing them back (well, mostly Super Saiyan 2). There are a good amount of Super Saiyan 2 scenes in the anime and manga.

[Zephyr]

I don't think there's really much reason for Goku to go back and use Super Saiyan 2 or 3 after reaching Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, and Ultra Instinct.

Before Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken, Goku distinguished between his "tournament strength" and "battle strength". Transformations basically function to give a more visual component to "battle strength". I don't think there's really much storytelling utility to there being more than one "transformation as battle strength", even if we understand that there is an whole gradient of possible strength levels between "tournament" and "battle" that they could technically access if they wanted to. Maybe have two transformations, as one can represent them using their absolute full strength, something they can only do for a short slice of time and would only really use to try and close out a battle.

So, I understand and agree with Toriyama's reasoning for phasing 2 and 3 out. I say this despite 3 being one of my favorites.

[Hugo Boss]

I think this is the direction E-Super is going for as well. Unfortunately, I see no reason to assume SS4 will even be mentioned in this edition either, but I wish Toriyama included a slight nod in his revision.

[BernardoCairo]

Toei and Toyotaro kept bringing them back (well, mostly Super Saiyan 2). There are a good amount of Super Saiyan 2 scenes in the anime and manga.

I would argue that Toyotaro put more effort into using all the available forms, probably because he is a fan himself. He kept Super Saiyajin God relevant, which I wonder later inspired Toriyama while writing Broly. He consistently used Super Saiyajin 2 and even gave it a bit of a power boost through Vegeta and Trunks, while also developing Blue further. He also had Goku explicitly number each of his transformations when explaining them to Merus, and now he is starting to integrate those forms with Ultra Instinct.
In the anime, by contrast, they seemed to rely much more on regular Blue for most of its run.

That said, I do agree with Toriyama’s overall vision. The transition from Super Saiyajin to God and then to Blue works very well conceptually. If you look at the concept art for the Broly movie, it is very easy to read the strengths and drawbacks of each form just from the designs, and that clarity is later reflected in how each transformation is used during the fights. It feels clean and deliberate.

But I also liked that Daima threw a bone to the older forms and made them feel relevant again, at least for a while. What happened to Super Saiyajin 2 was a bit unfair, considering it was originally conceived as the perfected Super Saiyajin form in terms of power. Still, I understand why they eventually defaulted back to the original transformation.

[The Dark Knight]

Ssj
Ssj2
Ssj3
SsjG
SsjB
SsjBKK & SsjBE
UI & UE

That's just too many transformations to worry about, so it makes sense to bring that number down to something more manageable. The reason Daima was able to emphasize Ssj2 & Ssj3 was because the list above wasn't accessible as a result of the story's placement in the timeline. When Daima gets a sequel and Vegeta is given Ssj4, then Ssj2 will likely be written out of the story in favor of focusing on the classic Ssj1 and the unique looking Ssj3 & Ssj4. If Daima is connected to Super somehow, then everything besides Blue, UI/UE, and Ssj4 will be ignored.

[Grimlock]

That said, I do agree with Toriyama’s overall vision. The transition from Super Saiyajin to God and then to Blue works very well conceptually.

Maybe, but I still prefer the original vision. I think if they had kept "Saiyan beyond God )---> Super Saiyan )---> Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan." it would have been better conceptually. Especially if we could integrate that Toyotaro's idea of using Ultra Instinct with other forms, we could reduce the number of transformations even further. Like, have Goku just use it while in Saiyan beyond God and Super Saiyan. Occasionally transforming into Ultra Instinct itself for whatever purpose they need.

[super michael]

These transformation has things that makes them unique:

SSJ4 (GT) = SSJ + Oozaru + has a tail
SSJ4 (Daima) = ? + gains a tail
SSG = God ki which mortals can't detect. Ki doesn't leak out
SSB = SSJ + God ki + mortals can't detect
MSSB = SSJ + God ki + Ki not leaking out + mortal can't detect
Evolved SSB = improved MSSB + doesn't lose power
UI = God ki + auto dodge + auto harden + giant avatar + mortal can't detect user ki + no weak spot
UE = God ki + power increase with damage + mortal can't detect user ki

[BernardoCairo]

Maybe, but I still prefer the original vision. I think if they had kept "Saiyan beyond God )---> Super Saiyan )---> Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan." it would have been better conceptually. Especially if we could integrate that Toyotaro's idea of using Ultra Instinct with other forms, we could reduce the number of transformations even further. Like, have Goku just use it while in Saiyan beyond God and Super Saiyan. Occasionally transforming into Ultra Instinct itself for whatever purpose they need.

If you go down that route, I would prefer that Goku and Vegeta only use the Saiyajin beyond God and Super Saiyajin Blue forms.
I don't understand why he would use the original Super Saiyajin form if his base power is already that of a Super Saiyajin God. And if he were to transform into a Super Saiyajin, it would make more sense for him to simply transform directly into Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin.

[Hugo Boss]

Furthermore, I think this new cut might not include Super Saiyan Blue Evolved and Ultra Instinct Sign, as they were not originally designed by Toriyama. Not only they don’t appear in Broly’s movie but also they are not present in the 40th anniversary video. Goku goes straight from Super Saiyan Blue to Silver Ultra Instinct.

[The Dark Knight]

Furthermore, I think this new cut might not include Super Saiyan Blue Evolved and Ultra Instinct Sign, as they were not originally designed by Toriyama. Not only they don’t appear in Broly’s movie but also they are not present in the 40th anniversary video. Goku goes straight from Super Saiyan Blue to Silver Ultra Instinct.

Transformations are the life blood of this franchise; there's no way they're getting cut, especially with Blue Evolution making its way into the manga.

[BernardoCairo]

I think it would be easier to cut Blue Evolution, particularly from the anime (where it practically appeared out of nowhere). But that would be very difficult, especially considering how many times Vegeta used it in the Tournament of Power. It's a similar case to Blue Kaioken.

Ultra Instinct Sign is hard to believe. It appeared quite a bit in both the anime and the manga and ended up being fundamental to the development of Goku's Ultra Instinct. I mean, TUI uses practically the same design as the Ultra Instinct Sign.