Dragon Ball Refuses To Move Forward

[super michael]

I bought it up since SupremeKai25 claims DBS doesn't contradict DBZ and EOZ.

I am aware Chi Chi is really minor and doesn't affect the story, however it was still bad writing none the less.

You bring it up everytime man, regardless of reason, you always manage to find a reason to sneak it in. Today it's because of SupremeKai25, yesterday it was something else, and the day before that it was some other thing, etc etc
We get the message, you don't have to say it everytime.

And Super Chi Chi is fine, how is she bad writing? Her 2 spoken sentences are bad writing? Weird fixation man.
If anything, it's Z that messed up Chichi by adding a ton of filler that made her insufferable when in the manga she does none of that. Chichi is inoffensive in Super.

I think I will take a break from mentioning the negative things about DBS.

You are right DBZ was when they exaggerated Chi Chi negative traits, she did things that never happened in the manga. However when Buu Saga came, she greatly improved. She was ok in Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG. In RoF she didn't appear.

[coola]

Wanting to "kidnap" Pan, putting soccer mom study regime on Goten, not DBZ level of Bi-Chi, but it's getting really close.

[super michael]

Here is how Goku progress in Dragon Ball, he didn't know nothing about the world since he grew up alone once Grandpa Gohan died at a young age. He didn't know about technology or even a female. However as chapter progress Goku kept learning more about the world and the strong fighters. Goku progress so much that he even taught others how to train and fight. So Goku went from not knowing anything to being good enough to be a sensei.

In Dragon Ball they knew how to combine fight scenes with gag, which made some fight really interesting and sometimes really funny. The one that comes to mind is Ninja Murasaki vs Goku an example.

As for Goten and Trunks I will give credit to DBS Super Hero writers for changing how they were written. They were welcomed to fight as fighters, they didn't view them as pest anymore. Giving Gohan a new transformation unique to him was nice also, basically Gohan was channeling his ki and rage made him transform.

[Grimlock]

1) Every story needs an ending. Why surpass the ending of Goku vs. Uub, when it's the natural ending of the story? What kind of story could possibly be worth digging up the corpse of this franchise?

You are absolutely correct. However, the only reason you can glaze at Dragon Ball Super and Zamasu at every turn, is because the corpse of this franchise was dug up in the first place. But you're not going to admit that Dragon Ball should have stayed dead past 1995/Goku leaving with Uub without the events of Dragon Ball Super, right?

[The Dark Knight]

Every story needs an ending. Why surpass the ending of Goku vs. Uub, when it's the natural ending of the story?

We're in agreement then; Dragon Ball should have ended and remained concluded once Toriyama and Toei wrapped up work on the Buu arc.

[Zephyr]

A "Dragon Ball '86 anime remake" would probably be so much more of a monkey's paw situation than people seem to realize. I expect it would be a lot like Dragon Ball Kai's redo of Z was:
• have a worse soundtrack (be it a new unfitting score or the original score with worse placement)
• have a worse vocal performance (outside of the dub, which is a "can only be better" situation)
• have worse visuals (though in this case it would be CG instead of MSpaint redraws)
• would start off with some out of place Bardock shit (though in this case it would be Minus instead of the TV Special)

I have no doubt that they'll eventually do this, but I bet that when it happens we'll be saying "the fans already did it, and did it better", the same way we'll be able to say that about every home release going forward.

I will never understand the hyper fixation with going past the manga’s original ending. GT and Dragon Ball Online both exist. Neither of which I have much interest in, especially the latter, but we’re not exactly deprived of stories that take place after Goku takes off with a prepubescent from a third word country reincarnated from a psycho genie.

I don't think it's that hard to understand. When I was a kid, while Toonami was still on Namek, I would see random teases for the Cell arc in the opening and Boo arc merch at my local comic shop. Those always had me so curious, because they looked and felt so different from the story where I was at. So, after DBZ ended, I definitely wanted to see the world and characters continue to evolve. I still don't actually know why I never bothered prioritizing watching GT when it was on TV, but I did get the tape that had Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, so I had a bit of a taste. But even then, what would happen after that? I ended up cooking up my own bullshit stories that happened post-GT, drawing character designs for it, and everything.

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

[The Dark Knight]

A "Dragon Ball '86 anime remake" would probably be so much more of a monkey's paw situation than people seem to realize. I expect it would be a lot like Dragon Ball Kai's redo of Z was:
• have a worse soundtrack (be it a new unfitting score or the original score with worse placement)
• have a worse vocal performance (outside of the dub, which is a "can only be better" situation)
• have worse visuals (though in this case it would be CG instead of MSpaint redraws)
• would start off with some out of place Bardock shit (though in this case it would be Minus instead of the TV Special)

I have no doubt that they'll eventually do this, but I bet that when it happens we'll be saying "the fans already did it, and did it better", the same way we'll be able to say that about every home release going forward.

• It would be censored into oblivion; no blood would be shown, and attacks that come off as too painful would be toned down.

• It would be full of foreshadowing to events in Super, even though it wasn't part of the original series.

• It would include a lot of tropes from the modern era, just as Super 1.0 was desperately trying to copy One Piece and other new series.

Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z are good the way they are, flaws and all; no remake for either is necessary. If Toei wants to do something new with these two series, they can properly remaster and color correct it instead; Throwing in the broadcast audio would be nice too.

[PrinceVegetto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXb7Xhdl9hE

I fully agree with all his points.

OG Dragon Ball (1986) getting the Kai treatment or being remade would be infinitely better of a 40th anniversary celebration than Super

What does a remake of DB has to do with moving forward? That's rather moving backwards.

By 'moving forward,' I’m not talking about the timeline in this context, I’m talking about the franchise’s refusal to invest in high-quality, ground-up productions.

Currently, Dragon Ball is stuck in a cycle of 'recycling' whether it’s resurrecting old villains (Freeza, Broly, Cell) or 'remaking' Super by simply slapping a new coat of paint on old footage. A ground-up remake of OG Dragon Ball would actually be a risk because it requires building a new visual identity from scratch—much like Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood did—rather than the lazy 'halfway house' approach of re-editing existing footage like Kai or 2026 Super.

A remake of OG Dragon Ball would be infinitely better because we’d see a modern animation style compared to the old 40-year-old animation. Animation technology and techniques have evolved massively since 1986.

The same cannot be said for the gap between Super’s original run and today.

[The Dark Knight]

A remake of OG Dragon Ball would be infinitely better because we’d see a modern animation style compared to the old 40-year-old animation.

I'd take that 40 year old art and animation over the stiff, visually blinding slop that's on the market today.

Animation technology and techniques have evolved massively since 1986.

They couldn't have evolved that much considering how much worse many shows today look compared to what we got in the 80s and 90s.

[PrinceVegetto]

A remake of OG Dragon Ball would be infinitely better because we’d see a modern animation style compared to the old 40-year-old animation.

I'd take that 40 year old art and animation over the stiff, visually blinding slop that's on the market today.

Animation technology and techniques have evolved massively since 1986.

They couldn't have evolved that much considering how much worse many shows today look compared to what we got in the 80s and 90s.

If Toei puts quality care into the franchise like they do for One Piece, we'd be good

[JulieYBM]

A "Dragon Ball '86 anime remake" would probably be so much more of a monkey's paw situation than people seem to realize. I expect it would be a lot like Dragon Ball Kai's redo of Z was:
• have a worse soundtrack (be it a new unfitting score or the original score with worse placement)
• have a worse vocal performance (outside of the dub, which is a "can only be better" situation)
• have worse visuals (though in this case it would be CG instead of MSpaint redraws)
• would start off with some out of place Bardock shit (though in this case it would be Minus instead of the TV Special)

I have no doubt that they'll eventually do this, but I bet that when it happens we'll be saying "the fans already did it, and did it better", the same way we'll be able to say that about every home release going forward.

• It would be censored into oblivion; no blood would be shown, and attacks that come off as too painful would be toned down.

• It would be full of foreshadowing to events in Super, even though it wasn't part of the original series.

• It would include a lot of tropes from the modern era, just as Super 1.0 was desperately trying to copy One Piece and other new series.

Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z are good the way they are, flaws and all; no remake for either is necessary. If Toei wants to do something new with these two series, they can properly remaster and color correct it instead; Throwing in the broadcast audio would be nice too.

As much as I love blood in battles, it's not exactly necessary to make cool fights. That being said, the series would not be without blood lol. Even Dragon Ball Super had blood in it.

Also: so what if it is modernized? I've got a copy of the 1984 comic, what's going to happen if a new animated adaption gets made and it's not 1:1? Is it going to just up and disappear? Is my home going to get raided by the Rainbow Capitalism police and my stuff burned?

We can talk about 'necessary' until the cows come home, but that's irrelevant. A second animated adaption is going to happen eventually because we live in a capitalist system. This shit is unavoidable. At the end of the day, what matters is whether or not we enjoy a work of art. If we don't, then we just go on with our lives and ignore it.

[Skar]

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

I think DBO works as kind of epilogue and similar to GT's ending. After taking care of all the major threats in the universe, the main cast lives out the rest of their lives in peace. I feel that's how almost every shonen series ends that allows the characters to age. The universe isn't going to keep conjuring up stronger and stronger villains forever. Eventually they'll face off against the strongest villain of their story and not much left after that. In DBO, it showed the only threat they faced in their lifetime was some remnants of Freeza's army then it took a few hundred years for a real threat to emerge.

I think most fans would end up more disappointed if any of those series decided to have a full fledged sequel. They'll probably be more of the same and derivative but never reach the heights of the original. Not just DB but if YYH, Bleach, Naruto, OP, MHA, Demon Slayer, etc decided to have a sequel years from now. Naruto has one but Boruto might be more like the GT of the franchise since it started directly after and intended to be shorter.

[kemuri07]

I bought it up since SupremeKai25 claims DBS doesn't contradict DBZ and EOZ.

I am aware Chi Chi is really minor and doesn't affect the story, however it was still bad writing none the less.

You bring it up everytime man, regardless of reason, you always manage to find a reason to sneak it in. Today it's because of SupremeKai25, yesterday it was something else, and the day before that it was some other thing, etc etc
We get the message, you don't have to say it everytime.

And Super Chi Chi is fine, how is she bad writing? Her 2 spoken sentences are bad writing? Weird fixation man.
If anything, it's Z that messed up Chichi by adding a ton of filler that made her insufferable when in the manga she does none of that. Chichi is inoffensive in Super.

I think I will take a break from mentioning the negative things about DBS.

You are right DBZ was when they exaggerated Chi Chi negative traits, she did things that never happened in the manga. However when Buu Saga came, she greatly improved. She was ok in Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG. In RoF she didn't appear.

No Michael. You have to let that hatred burn inside you. Never forget—Super is terrible.



I mean the issue is this: Dragon Ball ended. It’s the central problem every spinoff or sequel faces, and hasn’t really been able to solve. And sure Super and Daima exist, but that only furthers my point: Neither series progresses the franchise in any meaningful way—it’s just content for the sake of content. Goku fights a new guy. Who cares? Because it won’t change Goku in any meaningful way.

The status quo is the status quo, and because of that Dragonball will stay narratively inert. Its content. It’s slop.

[JulieYBM]

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

I think DBO works as kind of epilogue and similar to GT's ending. After taking care of all the major threats in the universe, the main cast lives out the rest of their lives in peace. I feel that's how almost every shonen series ends that allows the characters to age. The universe isn't going to keep conjuring up stronger and stronger villains forever. Eventually they'll face off against the strongest villain of their story and not much left after that. In DBO, it showed the only threat they faced in their lifetime was some remnants of Freeza's army then it took a few hundred years for a real threat to emerge.

I think most fans would end up more disappointed if any of those series decided to have a full fledged sequel. They'll probably be more of the same and derivative but never reach the heights of the original. Not just DB but if YYH, Bleach, Naruto, OP, MHA, Demon Slayer, etc decided to have a sequel years from now. Naruto has one but Boruto might be more like the GT of the franchise since it started directly after and intended to be shorter.

The Boruto comparison is kind of funny, given how Dragon Ball GT doesn't really commit to casting its older cast aside. Gokuu remains the central focus and wins the big fights, while Boruto has had no problem saying, "Eh, fuck Naruto and Sasuke" lol

[Skar]

The Boruto comparison is kind of funny, given how Dragon Ball GT doesn't really commit to casting its older cast aside. Gokuu remains the central focus and wins the big fights, while Boruto has had no problem saying, "Eh, fuck Naruto and Sasuke" lol

Yeah it was funny that both sequels went in the opposite direction. We already knew from EoZ that the half Saiyans lost interest in training but it kinda sets up Uub as Goku's successor. In GT all he did was help distract Baby for a few minutes and I don't think he was ever mentioned in Online. His only purpose was to give Goku a rematch after they finished his training then disappear back to his village.

[kemuri07]

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

I think DBO works as kind of epilogue and similar to GT's ending. After taking care of all the major threats in the universe, the main cast lives out the rest of their lives in peace. I feel that's how almost every shonen series ends that allows the characters to age. The universe isn't going to keep conjuring up stronger and stronger villains forever. Eventually they'll face off against the strongest villain of their story and not much left after that. In DBO, it showed the only threat they faced in their lifetime was some remnants of Freeza's army then it took a few hundred years for a real threat to emerge.

I think most fans would end up more disappointed if any of those series decided to have a full fledged sequel. They'll probably be more of the same and derivative but never reach the heights of the original. Not just DB but if YYH, Bleach, Naruto, OP, MHA, Demon Slayer, etc decided to have a sequel years from now. Naruto has one but Boruto might be more like the GT of the franchise since it started directly after and intended to be shorter.

The Boruto comparison is kind of funny, given how Dragon Ball GT doesn't really commit to casting its older cast aside. Gokuu remains the central focus and wins the big fights, while Boruto has had no problem saying, "Eh, fuck Naruto and Sasuke" lol

Of course it’s important to point out the differences of the anime and the manga. The manga absolutely goes all in on “Fuck Naruto. All my homies hate Naruto.” While with yhe anime, the producers clearly did not want to commit to this so they went “Naruto 2.0”.

GT at least takes some big swings, even if it does compromise largely throughout. But yeah it ends with major shifts in the status quo. If you want to make a new story set within that world, you’re gonna have to deal with those swings.

In that case Super is really just a way for the machine to build Dragon Ball stories for all of eternity. That’s why it’s set in a vague timeline that they never will address; that’s why the status quo remains permanent: there must be Dragon Ball content. Forever.

[The Dark Knight]

The biggest issue I have with Boruto is that it doesn't feel like it belongs in the same universe as Naruto anymore; they went too far away from what made that series what it was. Kaguya Otsutsuki was by far the weakest and most out of place part of the original's final arc, and now we have an entire series revolving around her people. Like Dragon Ball before it, Naruto also should have ended once Kishimoto and Studio Pierrot wrapped up work on the original Naruto story.

[super michael]

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

I think DBO works as kind of epilogue and similar to GT's ending. After taking care of all the major threats in the universe, the main cast lives out the rest of their lives in peace. I feel that's how almost every shonen series ends that allows the characters to age. The universe isn't going to keep conjuring up stronger and stronger villains forever. Eventually they'll face off against the strongest villain of their story and not much left after that. In DBO, it showed the only threat they faced in their lifetime was some remnants of Freeza's army then it took a few hundred years for a real threat to emerge.

I think most fans would end up more disappointed if any of those series decided to have a full fledged sequel. They'll probably be more of the same and derivative but never reach the heights of the original. Not just DB but if YYH, Bleach, Naruto, OP, MHA, Demon Slayer, etc decided to have a sequel years from now. Naruto has one but Boruto might be more like the GT of the franchise since it started directly after and intended to be shorter.

The Boruto comparison is kind of funny, given how Dragon Ball GT doesn't really commit to casting its older cast aside. Gokuu remains the central focus and wins the big fights, while Boruto has had no problem saying, "Eh, fuck Naruto and Sasuke" lol

I will mention somethings that happened in Boruto with spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

• Naruto lost Kurama and got sealed in Kawaki dimension

• Sasuke is sealed in a divine tree

• Kurama is reborn inside Himawari, making her a beast in power

• Inojin created a new jutsu with Kashin Koji help

• Kawaki got huge power upgrade

• Boruto got a huge power upgrade

• Sarada gained control of her Mangekyou Sharingan and killed Ryu a powerful enemy

Even though Boruto is the main character, other characters gets to shine. I am up to date with the manga.

Yu-Gi-Oh GX uses new character along with Yu-Gi-Oh 5D!.

[SupremeKai25]

1) Every story needs an ending. Why surpass the ending of Goku vs. Uub, when it's the natural ending of the story? What kind of story could possibly be worth digging up the corpse of this franchise?

You are absolutely correct. However, the only reason you can glaze at Dragon Ball Super and Zamasu at every turn, is because the corpse of this franchise was dug up in the first place. But you're not going to admit that Dragon Ball should have stayed dead past 1995/Goku leaving with Uub without the events of Dragon Ball Super, right?

I have made my point. You're the only one who brought up Zamasu, who's got nothing to do with my point.

The events of Super don't alter the original ending in any major way, and in fact Super only builds up the original ending. The narrative helmed by Toriyama remains tethered to the 1995 ending.

Midquel =/= Sequel

Every story needs an ending. Why surpass the ending of Goku vs. Uub, when it's the natural ending of the story?

Dragon Ball should have ended and remained concluded once Toriyama and Toei wrapped up work on the Buu arc.

No, we don't. That wasn't the point I made.

[Grimlock]

I have made my point. You're the only one who brought up Zamasu, who's got nothing to do with my point.

The events of Super don't alter the original ending in any major way, and in fact Super only builds up the original ending. The narrative helmed by Toriyama remains tethered to the 1995 ending.

Midquel =/= Sequel

It has everything to do your point. You're against new stories set after the original ending under some nonsensical reasoning, but would you be saying that if Dragon Ball Super was a sequel?

Yes, Dragon Ball Super alters the original ending in many major ways. Uub is much stronger than initially thought and he has god Ki now. There are contradictions people so tireless discuss all the time, that whether you want to acknowledge them or not, they are there regardless.

What makes Dragon Ball Super so special that it is worthwhile to dug up this franchise but a sequel isn't?