Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[SylentEcho]

It's, 'pick whatever continuity you want' at this point. Just like Toriyama would have probably preferred.

Unlike GT, Super, Diama, DB Minus etc are good bonus content, but don't fit-in seamlessly when watched in order from DB onwards.

For me, there's some moments and character interactions in GT that hit the nail on the head and showed how much Toei understood the characters and their growth, without overexaggerating things.

There's tons of great character interactions in there. Vegeta dragging Goten to get onto the ship, Vegeta and Goku having a laugh together on that bridge and so much more, but nothing can top that final episode, in my opinion. That is easily in the top 3 episodes of all time, if not the very best.

Super has a lot of issues. Goku being straight-up mentally damaged. Also, him forgetting almost all of his earlier training and re-learning it. And, don't even get me started about future Trunks and that banal TOP.

Daima was nice, but it didn't do much for me. It felt like a nice, long movie and not part of the series.

To me, canon will always be the original manga with the ten year gap. GT is the true sequel. If it had a the luxury of a hundred or so more episodes, we'd have seen Gohan and the others do a lot more.

[SylentEcho]

He's not a perfect author, deal with it

I must butt-in here and say, that it's not because of that. The stuff he probably grew up on didn't have strict continuity, either. Things he might have seen and read as a kid - Conan, Flash Gordon, The Phantom, heck, even Superman and other stuff didn't have strict continuity. People just enjoyed reading good stories and that seemed to be Toriyama's vibe, too.

[BernardoCairo]

I don’t think GT truly understood the characters. I believe they misinterpreted Goku in many ways. Still, I don’t mind if the story chooses to portray a different side of the characters.

[Grimlock]

An equivalent term for "canon" in Japanese is 正史 (seishi), which literally translates to "official history" or "authentic history". That was the term V-Jump used for DBS's versions of Broly and Gogeeta.

What else has received that term? Which of the four versions of Goku meeting Beerus for the first time got that term? Are the old movies, Dragon Ball GT and whatnot not "official history"? Then what are they? Fan works? Does "V-Jump" have the authority to say what's canonical and what's not? You are quick to dismiss what Toyotaro said as merely his opinion but consider what V-Jump states? Why is that?

Japanese fans argue about this stuff just as American fans do.

Care to provide a few examples? Do you know some Japanese forums which you can link to and show us them arguing about canon? Twitter will do too.

Toriyama himself said that the original Toei movies take place in a separate "dimension" from the manga, which is basically his way of saying that they're not canon to the manga.

Or him acknowledging the movies in-universe and pretty much establishing a Multiverse. So many different interpretations to what he said.

[Zebra]

What else has received that term?

I'm not sure how many times Shuiesha has used it, but it's a common term in Japanese.

re the old movies, Dragon Ball GT and whatnot not "official history"?

That's the implication. DBS brought Gogeeta and Broly into the "authentic history", meaning Fusion Reborn, the DBZ Broly movies, and all the other old Toei movies aren't canon (especially since Toriyama already said they were set in a different dimension from the manga).

Then what are they? Fan works?

"Official" in this context refers to Toriyama's own continuity. They're not part of it, so they're "unofficial" in that sense. "Glorified fanfiction" isn't really wrong to say.

Does "V-Jump" have the authority to say what's canonical and what's not? You are quick to dismiss what Toyotaro said as merely his opinion but consider what V-Jump states? Why is that?

What V-Jump said here wasn't stated as an opinion. Toyotaroh explicitly said he was only expressing his personal view.

If you want to argue V-Jump should be taken with a grain of salt based on other stuff they say, w/e, but I'd say it's stronger evidence than one offhand comment said without certainty.

Care to provide a few examples? Do you know some Japanese forums which you can link to and show us them arguing about canon? Twitter will do too.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/q ... 3141763328
https://kickted47.hatenablog.com/entry/ ... /08/165750
https://sekaisen.world/dragon_ball-eiga-sekaisen/
https://x.com/nappasan/status/1165251683724562432

Or him acknowledging the movies in-universe and pretty much establishing a Multiverse. So many different interpretations to what he said.

If the movies are set in a dimension that's totally separate from the manga, and they're not even acknowledged, then they're not canon, for all intents and purposes.

[The Dark Knight]

Here's my thoughts on the whole canon debate going on here:

Based on my understanding, I think fans in Japan tend to view the original manga of a particular series as the "real" story and intention of the author, giving it far more weight than anything else. As far as Dragon Ball is concerned, that would be the original manga that Toriyama wrote and drew from 1984 to 1995; everything outside of that is viewed as side or optional content. I don't think the question is whether or not Japanese fans understand the concept of "canon", but rather having a different understanding of what it means and includes. As a result of this, Japanese fans in general don't particularly care whether or not stories outside the original manga line up perfectly with it, much less with each other. For Western fans, and especially American fans, the anime tends to take more precedent over the manga, thus canon becomes more of a debate here due to all the different series and movies that have varying degrees of involvement from the original author. Again, this is just based on my understanding of how things work in Japan, which may be totally off or maybe just partially off, so feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding something regarding this topic.

[super michael]

I never understood why Future Trunks couldn't stay in the present time line, regardless if Future Trunks stays or leaves to create a new time line, it is a fact that there will always be two Mai and two Trunks. If Future Trunks stayed in the present time line, then no new alternate time line would get created.

I think continuity on the manga is different than on the comic. When someone read Dragon Ball, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, etc, it is easy to know were to start. When it comes to Comic there are many version and comics of Superman, all with different story and are not connected at all.

[Grimlock]

I'm not sure how many times Shuiesha has used it, but it's a common term in Japanese.

Then I think we should know exactly and without any trace of doubt what's canonical and what's not if it's that common and such.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/q ... 3141763328
https://kickted47.hatenablog.com/entry/ ... /08/165750
https://sekaisen.world/dragon_ball-eiga-sekaisen/
https://x.com/nappasan/status/1165251683724562432

Thanks a lot! It's the first time I'm seeing folks on the other side of the world wasting time discussing this nonsense. Kind of disappointed, to be honest, thought they were above this.

The last one from Twitter said the most approachable and realistic thing in all of this, though. Canon has no real meaning (especially in a franchise that never established it), so it's best to leave this to personal preference. It's just unfortunate that people treat their preference as if it was a fact.

If the movies are set in a dimension that's totally separate from the manga, and they're not even acknowledged, then they're not canon, for all intents and purposes.

No, not necessarily. A work can be out of a certain continuity and still be canonical.


By the way, what's your stance related to Dragon Ball Online?

[Chuquita]

I agree with 'canon is what you make it'. Dragon Ball's continuity is so fragmented-- arguably always has been if you consider filler from the original anime that wasn't in the manga along with the movies not lining up, but it's way more egregious now between Super's anime, manga, and BoG F (plus the upcoming Super Kai) split, Daima, & GT. I pick and choose what I like, and those are my own personal preferences. (I partly attribute my philosophy on this to having entered the fandom in the long ago, more wild west era of the internet where, at least the places I used to frequent, canon was a looser concept).

Spoiler:

Like, I count DBO, but I don't count Daima (even though I have two figuarts from it because I liked the Daima designs for adult Goku and adult Vegeta), I count most of Super, but I do not count the Gochi character assassination (imo Goku and Chichi have absolutely kissed each other on the mouth at various times. Writers treating married parent 40-something year old Goku like a idol singer character who isn't allowed to kiss is cringy imo or if it was the setup for a joke then why was there no payoff, Vegeta?). [/low energy DBS complaint, but DBS complaint nonetheless]

GT meanwhile feels so far removed... I treated it as canon up until DBO, but now for me GT is just a side story. And I haven't played a Dragon Ball videogame since Fighterz so I personally don't count anything from the more recent games, but that's mostly because I don't know much about them.

Then there's things like Toriyama coloring in 18's hair silver or Mai having black irises where they used to be blue.

I like Goku and Vegeta in Neko Majin Z, but where Vegeta is in that makes me consider it an alternate timeline.

Anyway.

Enjoy the parts you enjoy! Understand that everyone has their own take on which parts of DB they like and count and that your time is valuable and how you choose to use it is up to you.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Thanks a lot! It's the first time I'm seeing folks on the other side of the world wasting time discussing this nonsense. Kind of disappointed, to be honest, thought they were above this.

Exceptions to the rule exist, this doesn't mean that the average japanese person is concerned with this, same way a westener not being concerned with it doesn't mean that western people don't discuss canon more often than not.

It would be silly to expect exactly 0 japanese people to discuss this, there's always gonna be a few that do it regardless of what's the stance of the general population is

[BernardoCairo]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.

I agree. And I personally don't understand why Toriyama didn't use some of his great ideas in Super. If they wanted to bring Trunks back, I think the Time Patrol would be a great way to do so. At least it wouldn't take away from the great development we got for Trunks in the original Dragon Ball (where he learned to be a hero and trust himself).

[The Dark Knight]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.

I agree. And I personally don't understand why Toriyama didn't use some of his great ideas in Super. If they wanted to bring Trunks back, I think the Time Patrol would be a great way to do so.

That's probably because Toriyama wasn't the one coming up with the stories; he was taking what was presented to him by the committee and putting his stamp on them. As far as we know, Battle of Gods and Daima were the only two stories he re-wrote from the ground up.

[kprison]

This thread went from "Which is the best sequel?" to "Are Japanese people too stupid to understand the law on non-contradiction?"

The answer: No! They're actually quite intelligent.

The actual reason you sometimes want to disregard continuity is that it's strangling. You can trap yourself into creative death with canon, so it's just easier to press the reset button on things sometimes.

It's just a story, it's not real history. It doesn't need to be perfectly coherent, only coherent enough that you can more or less understand what's going on.

[kprison]

As far as we know, Battle of Gods and Daima were the only two stories he re-wrote from the ground up.

Tbh you're being generous giving it to BoG. It still sounds like a reunion special type movie before he came in. He changed all the details but the skeleton of the movie was not his.

Toriyama wrote scripts for the movies in response to editorial suggestions ofc, but if our category for Toriyama's brainchild is "This is a story Toriyama told of his own volition because he just felt it belonged as part of the Dragon Ball world" then most likely nothing from the BoG-Super era fits the bill except maybe Jaco. Or... Maybe Granolah? I think that's the one case where we just don't know enough about its origin to say (maybe I'm wrong, I don't read every interview)

Daima is a unique case because the story seems to have been written and produced at the same time over a long period of time, and Toriyama was on board for most of that, but it's safe to say Super Saiyan 4 is not something he particularly cares about. I tend to think the truth of his involvement was stretched a bit, I think he probably had a lot to do with the character comedy and lore and probably next to nothing to do with the actual story, but that's just my speculation.

When you get into modern stuff "Toriyama involvement" is not a good measure for either quality or canonicity because it's ambiguous and mostly just there for branding reasons.

[The Dark Knight]

If our category for Toriyama's brainchild is "This is a story Toriyama told of his own volition just because he felt it needed to exist in the way it existed" then nothing from the BoG-Super era fits the bill except maybe Jaco.

This actually fits both Battle of Gods and Daima perfectly, as both began production without him, nor was anyone on the production committee expecting him to join, but he decided to get involved of his own accord because he personally he thought those stories were worth telling. There's also the fact that out of all the stories we've gotten from him since 2013, these two were the most he was involved with, especially Daima. Everything between these two (except Jaco) was him just working as an editor for whoever was coming up with the basic ideas for the plots.

I tend to think the truth of his involvement was stretched a bit, I think he probably had a lot to do with the character comedy and lore and probably next to nothing to do with the actual story, but that's just my speculation.

Daima and Battle of Gods have Toriyama's fingerprints all over them, so I have absolutely no doubt that he was the most involved with these two. Everything else however feels like someone else's work with a few Toriyama corrections here and there.

[JulieYBM]

'Modern Toriyama involvement' is kind of a fraught discussion in general, because not all stories are necessarily going to be the brainchild of just one person. When Toriyama was writing the original comic, he was still fielding ideas from other people. Creators in general tend to do that and it doesn't necessarily mean the project is compromised for it. "Can you come up with a story using Broly?" "Yeah, sure, whatever" et cetera.

It's a discussion that it ultimately kind of fruitless, too, because it's a separate discussion from whether something was actually good. Iyoku's job was to sell a product, not push Toriyama to create good art. At least with Torishima, he was a bit more of an editor geared toward what he thought made good art—although I wouldn't necessarily trust Torishima's tastes, either.

I dunno what to say. We're kind of fucked either way now, because Iyoku just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will allow the talent overseeing future animated series to actually be creative and deviate from Toriyama's story outlines when it means creating something that is actually good and not just appeals to a merchandisable element. The reason why the Tournament of Power arc was so good in the anime was because Nagamine had experience balancing what merchandise partners wanted with creating a good story that could feature said merchandise. That's a level of confidence I haven't truly felt in other arcs, films and Daima itself.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I dunno what to say. We're kind of fucked either way now, because Iyoku just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will allow the talent overseeing future animated series to actually be creative and deviate from Toriyama's story outlines when it means creating something that is actually good and not just appeals to a merchandisable element. The reason why the Tournament of Power arc was so good in the anime was because Nagamine had experience balancing what merchandise partners wanted with creating a good story that could feature said merchandise. That's a level of confidence I haven't truly felt in other arcs, films and Daima itself.

I think if the franchise keeps going (big if, because who knows what they will do once all of the Super arcs get "remade" and the manga exclusive material gets adapted) we're gonna get something good and "experimental" eventually right?

They will at some point run out of nostalgia bait, they almost did it all, Freeza, Cell (with Super Hero), Buu and GT(with Daima) Broly, Fusion Reborn, Bardock, what more can they recycle at this point?

I wouldn't mind getting a show set in the far future one day, sort of like what Age 1000 wants to do, or what DB Online did, and we get to see a new generation of fighters in a familiar yet different world. Or even just a next gen show like most franchises are doing these days, it'd be nice to see Goten, Trunks, Pan Uub, being the main characters of some adventure. It's not out of the realm of possiblity for a project like this to exist someday if they keep the franchise going.
I see this as more of a side project though, as sadly, I think their main focus will always be on re hashing the classic Dragon Ball formula, with keeping Goku and Vegeta as the center focus, and all the other tropes we got used to in the modern DB era

[kprison]

They will at some point run out of nostalgia bait, they almost did it all, Freeza, Cell (with Super Hero), Buu and GT(with Daima) Broly, Fusion Reborn, Bardock, what more can they recycle at this point?

They've already remade the Android arc twice (Goku Black and Super Hero) and we're due for Freeza again once they get to new stories.

They can and will retell worse versions of the exact same story on a loop forever. That's what happens when a story degenerates into a franchise.

Tournament of Power is the closest thing to an experiment we will ever see again.

[The Dark Knight]

They will at some point run out of nostalgia bait, they almost did it all, Freeza, Cell (with Super Hero), Buu and GT(with Daima) Broly, Fusion Reborn, Bardock, what more can they recycle at this point?

Turles
Slug
Cooler
Android 13
Baby
Super 17
Shadow Dragons

[JulieYBM]

I dunno what to say. We're kind of fucked either way now, because Iyoku just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will allow the talent overseeing future animated series to actually be creative and deviate from Toriyama's story outlines when it means creating something that is actually good and not just appeals to a merchandisable element. The reason why the Tournament of Power arc was so good in the anime was because Nagamine had experience balancing what merchandise partners wanted with creating a good story that could feature said merchandise. That's a level of confidence I haven't truly felt in other arcs, films and Daima itself.

I think if the franchise keeps going (big if, because who knows what they will do once all of the Super arcs get "remade" and the manga exclusive material gets adapted) we're gonna get something good and "experimental" eventually right?

They will at some point run out of nostalgia bait, they almost did it all, Freeza, Cell (with Super Hero), Buu and GT(with Daima) Broly, Fusion Reborn, Bardock, what more can they recycle at this point?

I wouldn't mind getting a show set in the far future one day, sort of like what Age 1000 wants to do, or what DB Online did, and we get to see a new generation of fighters in a familiar yet different world. Or even just a next gen show like most franchises are doing these days, it'd be nice to see Goten, Trunks, Pan Uub, being the main characters of some adventure. It's not out of the realm of possiblity for a project like this to exist someday if they keep the franchise going.
I see this as more of a side project though, as sadly, I think their main focus will always be on re hashing the classic Dragon Ball formula, with keeping Goku and Vegeta as the center focus, and all the other tropes we got used to in the modern DB era

I mean, Iyoku made it pretty clear during the lead up to Daima that he wanted to keep Dragon Ball going for a long time. He can cast himself as this great respector of Toriyama-sensei, but at the end of the day, he's a capitalist first and a creative mind second. I've never heard him speak kindly of anyone involved in the production of the animated projects, either, but perhaps there's something in Daima interviews that I'm missing?

I don't really care when a story a set so long as it's well-crafted by a team with a clear vision. If you're going to put a gun to our heads and say, "New Dragon Ball only, no new IP!" then at least let the poor fuckers tell stories they want to tell and don't micromanage their creativity. I've been sitting through the currently running Jujutsu Kaisen Season 3 and I can't remember the last time a season of television so clearly felt like a love letter to filmmaking and to the series it was adapting.

My big hope for Dragon Ball Super: The Galactic Patrol, is that it won't suffer the same weird, stilted feeling that Dragon Ball Daima did, while maintaining the same level of quality animation. I don't know who the series director is, but if it's someone with a strong vision for how to elevate the story like we saw Nagamine Tatsuya, Nakamura Ryouta and Tomioka Atsuhiro do with the Tournament of Power, I would be really excited.

It's a crude example, but if Dragon Ball Super Episode #90 looked like, say, Dragon Ball Daima Episodes #17-20, instead of looking like watching a rickety shack in the middle of a hurricane, it would still be talked about to this day as one of the best episodes of the franchise. That kind of goes for most episodes of the Tournament of Power, though.