Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[SylentEcho]

It's, 'pick whatever continuity you want' at this point. Just like Toriyama would have probably preferred.

Unlike GT, Super, Diama, DB Minus etc are good bonus content, but don't fit-in seamlessly when watched in order from DB onwards.

For me, there's some moments and character interactions in GT that hit the nail on the head and showed how much Toei understood the characters and their growth, without overexaggerating things.

There's tons of great character interactions in there. Vegeta dragging Goten to get onto the ship, Vegeta and Goku having a laugh together on that bridge and so much more, but nothing can top that final episode, in my opinion. That is easily in the top 3 episodes of all time, if not the very best.

Super has a lot of issues. Goku being straight-up mentally damaged. Also, him forgetting almost all of his earlier training and re-learning it. And, don't even get me started about future Trunks and that banal TOP.

Daima was nice, but it didn't do much for me. It felt like a nice, long movie and not part of the series.

To me, canon will always be the original manga with the ten year gap. GT is the true sequel. If it had a the luxury of a hundred or so more episodes, we'd have seen Gohan and the others do a lot more.

[SylentEcho]

He's not a perfect author, deal with it

I must butt-in here and say, that it's not because of that. The stuff he probably grew up on didn't have strict continuity, either. Things he might have seen and read as a kid - Conan, Flash Gordon, The Phantom, heck, even Superman and other stuff didn't have strict continuity. People just enjoyed reading good stories and that seemed to be Toriyama's vibe, too.

[BernardoCairo]

I don’t think GT truly understood the characters. I believe they misinterpreted Goku in many ways. Still, I don’t mind if the story chooses to portray a different side of the characters.

[Grimlock]

An equivalent term for "canon" in Japanese is 正史 (seishi), which literally translates to "official history" or "authentic history". That was the term V-Jump used for DBS's versions of Broly and Gogeeta.

What else has received that term? Which of the four versions of Goku meeting Beerus for the first time got that term? Are the old movies, Dragon Ball GT and whatnot not "official history"? Then what are they? Fan works? Does "V-Jump" have the authority to say what's canonical and what's not? You are quick to dismiss what Toyotaro said as merely his opinion but consider what V-Jump states? Why is that?

Japanese fans argue about this stuff just as American fans do.

Care to provide a few examples? Do you know some Japanese forums which you can link to and show us them arguing about canon? Twitter will do too.

Toriyama himself said that the original Toei movies take place in a separate "dimension" from the manga, which is basically his way of saying that they're not canon to the manga.

Or him acknowledging the movies in-universe and pretty much establishing a Multiverse. So many different interpretations to what he said.

[Zebra]

What else has received that term?

I'm not sure how many times Shuiesha has used it, but it's a common term in Japanese.

re the old movies, Dragon Ball GT and whatnot not "official history"?

That's the implication. DBS brought Gogeeta and Broly into the "authentic history", meaning Fusion Reborn, the DBZ Broly movies, and all the other old Toei movies aren't canon (especially since Toriyama already said they were set in a different dimension from the manga).

Then what are they? Fan works?

"Official" in this context refers to Toriyama's own continuity. They're not part of it, so they're "unofficial" in that sense. "Glorified fanfiction" isn't really wrong to say.

Does "V-Jump" have the authority to say what's canonical and what's not? You are quick to dismiss what Toyotaro said as merely his opinion but consider what V-Jump states? Why is that?

What V-Jump said here wasn't stated as an opinion. Toyotaroh explicitly said he was only expressing his personal view.

If you want to argue V-Jump should be taken with a grain of salt based on other stuff they say, w/e, but I'd say it's stronger evidence than one offhand comment said without certainty.

Care to provide a few examples? Do you know some Japanese forums which you can link to and show us them arguing about canon? Twitter will do too.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/q ... 3141763328
https://kickted47.hatenablog.com/entry/ ... /08/165750
https://sekaisen.world/dragon_ball-eiga-sekaisen/
https://x.com/nappasan/status/1165251683724562432

Or him acknowledging the movies in-universe and pretty much establishing a Multiverse. So many different interpretations to what he said.

If the movies are set in a dimension that's totally separate from the manga, and they're not even acknowledged, then they're not canon, for all intents and purposes.

[The Dark Knight]

Here's my thoughts on the whole canon debate going on here:

Based on my understanding, I think fans in Japan tend to view the original manga of a particular series as the "real" story and intention of the author, giving it far more weight than anything else. As far as Dragon Ball is concerned, that would be the original manga that Toriyama wrote and drew from 1984 to 1995; everything outside of that is viewed as side or optional content. I don't think the question is whether or not Japanese fans understand the concept of "canon", but rather having a different understanding of what it means and includes. As a result of this, Japanese fans in general don't particularly care whether or not stories outside the original manga line up perfectly with it, much less with each other. For Western fans, and especially American fans, the anime tends to take more precedent over the manga, thus canon becomes more of a debate here due to all the different series and movies that have varying degrees of involvement from the original author. Again, this is just based on my understanding of how things work in Japan, which may be totally off or maybe just partially off, so feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding something regarding this topic.

[super michael]

I never understood why Future Trunks couldn't stay in the present time line, regardless if Future Trunks stays or leaves to create a new time line, it is a fact that there will always be two Mai and two Trunks. If Future Trunks stayed in the present time line, then no new alternate time line would get created.

I think continuity on the manga is different than on the comic. When someone read Dragon Ball, Naruto, Bleach, Inuyasha, etc, it is easy to know were to start. When it comes to Comic there are many version and comics of Superman, all with different story and are not connected at all.

[Grimlock]

I'm not sure how many times Shuiesha has used it, but it's a common term in Japanese.

Then I think we should know exactly and without any trace of doubt what's canonical and what's not if it's that common and such.

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/q ... 3141763328
https://kickted47.hatenablog.com/entry/ ... /08/165750
https://sekaisen.world/dragon_ball-eiga-sekaisen/
https://x.com/nappasan/status/1165251683724562432

Thanks a lot! It's the first time I'm seeing folks on the other side of the world wasting time discussing this nonsense. Kind of disappointed, to be honest, thought they were above this.

The last one from Twitter said the most approachable and realistic thing in all of this, though. Canon has no real meaning (especially in a franchise that never established it), so it's best to leave this to personal preference. It's just unfortunate that people treat their preference as if it was a fact.

If the movies are set in a dimension that's totally separate from the manga, and they're not even acknowledged, then they're not canon, for all intents and purposes.

No, not necessarily. A work can be out of a certain continuity and still be canonical.


By the way, what's your stance related to Dragon Ball Online?

[Chuquita]

I agree with 'canon is what you make it'. Dragon Ball's continuity is so fragmented-- arguably always has been if you consider filler from the original anime that wasn't in the manga along with the movies not lining up, but it's way more egregious now between Super's anime, manga, and BoG F (plus the upcoming Super Kai) split, Daima, & GT. I pick and choose what I like, and those are my own personal preferences. (I partly attribute my philosophy on this to having entered the fandom in the long ago, more wild west era of the internet where, at least the places I used to frequent, canon was a looser concept).

Spoiler:

Like, I count DBO, but I don't count Daima (even though I have two figuarts from it because I liked the Daima designs for adult Goku and adult Vegeta), I count most of Super, but I do not count the Gochi character assassination (imo Goku and Chichi have absolutely kissed each other on the mouth at various times. Writers treating married parent 40-something year old Goku like a idol singer character who isn't allowed to kiss is cringy imo or if it was the setup for a joke then why was there no payoff, Vegeta?). [/low energy DBS complaint, but DBS complaint nonetheless]

GT meanwhile feels so far removed... I treated it as canon up until DBO, but now for me GT is just a side story. And I haven't played a Dragon Ball videogame since Fighterz so I personally don't count anything from the more recent games, but that's mostly because I don't know much about them.

Then there's things like Toriyama coloring in 18's hair silver or Mai having black irises where they used to be blue.

I like Goku and Vegeta in Neko Majin Z, but where Vegeta is in that makes me consider it an alternate timeline.

Anyway.

Enjoy the parts you enjoy! Understand that everyone has their own take on which parts of DB they like and count and that your time is valuable and how you choose to use it is up to you.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Thanks a lot! It's the first time I'm seeing folks on the other side of the world wasting time discussing this nonsense. Kind of disappointed, to be honest, thought they were above this.

Exceptions to the rule exist, this doesn't mean that the average japanese person is concerned with this, same way a westener not being concerned with it doesn't mean that western people don't discuss canon more often than not.

It would be silly to expect exactly 0 japanese people to discuss this, there's always gonna be a few that do it regardless of what's the stance of the general population is

[BernardoCairo]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.

I agree. And I personally don't understand why Toriyama didn't use some of his great ideas in Super. If they wanted to bring Trunks back, I think the Time Patrol would be a great way to do so. At least it wouldn't take away from the great development we got for Trunks in the original Dragon Ball (where he learned to be a hero and trust himself).

[The Dark Knight]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.

I agree. And I personally don't understand why Toriyama didn't use some of his great ideas in Super. If they wanted to bring Trunks back, I think the Time Patrol would be a great way to do so.

That's probably because Toriyama wasn't the one coming up with the stories; he was taking what was presented to him by the committee and putting his stamp on them. As far as we know, Battle of Gods and Daima were the only two stories he re-wrote from the ground up.