Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Beast has the largest from base power gain shown yet. Gohans base form is not on the level of Piccolo, Goku, Broly, or Vegetas base forms. He's far below their base forms. But when he goes Beast he has the edge in raw power against them in their best forms. Beast is an insane transformation, but I guess it makes sense seeing as its Gohan.

[Miracles]

Moro couldn't even be beat by A fusion when he merged with Seven in the Galactic Patrol arc. A fusion is not even close to Beerus.

[Yuji]

How strong is Slim Boo from the DBS anime?

Stronger than Boohan? Stronger than Moro arc Mr. Boo? In-between?

He tangled with Base2 Goku (calling Base2 to the SSG-tier base Goku portrayals since they're so inconsistent).

[Hugo Boss]

How strong is Slim Boo from the DBS anime?

Stronger than Boohan? Stronger than Moro arc Mr. Boo? In-between?

He tangled with Base2 Goku (calling Base2 to the SSG-tier base Goku portrayals since they're so inconsistent).

In terms of strength, he was pretty much even with Goku in their fight. Boo only beat him because of writing convenience, so that Goku would learn strategies to use in the future fights.

If he was comparable to other iterations of Boo that weren’t the Fat Boo, that was not clear in Goku’s assessment. I think nearing or surpassing Gohan-Boo level might be a stretch, but so was Fat Boo in Moro arc, when he was fighting at a level rivaling Super Saiyan Blue.

Since this is Super, anything is possible.

[QuakingStar]

Fit Buu was BoG Arc SSG level minimum. Buu had never trained in canon, so taking it that serious combined with his stamina and healing factor it's no wonder he was able to get that strong, it's like Frieza training for real for the first time. Buu in the Moro Arc is above Moro Arc Super Saiyan Blue in power.

[Yuji]

I think I've pretty much settled on Super Saiyan fusions being about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue (Gotenks being the only exception so far). Some may be slightly stronger, some slightly weaker, but I think that's more or or less where they stand.

Which means, to me personally, Super Vegetto in the Boo arc is around RoF SSB tier (which also fits with Super Vegetto being called stronger than SS4 Baby arc Goku, and SSB/SS4 being portrayed as equals in Heroes and other media). I think this one is what will raise the most eyebrows but I prefer to keep things consistent with the scaling below.

Super Gogeta >/= SSB Goku/Vegeta
UIS Goku > Anime SS2 Kefla > SSBKKx20 Goku > SS Kefla =/> SSB Goku
Manga SSB Goku >/= Ultimate Gohan = SS Kefla

The "God is an astronomical multiplier" thing has clearly been done away with. It's SS3x10 to me right now. Which means there's not such a ridiculous difference between SS and SSB, though I'd also entertain the possibility that fusions have reduced multipliers as well.

[Koitsukai]

I don't agree at all.

If Buu arc SS Vegito had been SSB tier, then BoG SS Vegito (with a Vegeta stronger than SS3 Goku) would've been absolutely insane and a way better option than SSG. Yet Goku speaks as if he made the right choice, power-wise, by not fusing and trying something else.
The gap between Buuhan and RoF SSB tier is gargantuan. Vegito would’ve hardly needed to lift a finger if that were the case, or to let himself get turned into candy, which he wasn’t expecting at all and yet couldn’t avoid.

Narratively, SSG needs to surpass Z Vegito. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that fusion depends on how strong the fusees are. Z fusions can't hold a candle to DBS fusions because Z fusees maxed out at SS3, while DBS fusees have two additional forms beyond that.

There's a recent thread here that talks about how base and SS forms work, which goes hand in hand with Kaboom's fusion theory. Fusions tend to be extremely strong in base and don’t gain proportionally as much from transformations, as seen when Gogeta went SS (only performing slightly better than in base) and SSB against Broly.

If Vegito was already operating at that level, then the entire dramatic weight of BoG falls apart. The whole point of SSG was to introduce a new realm of power, not something that had already been surpassed years earlier.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The big things that puts stopgaps into the "Fusions were always stronger than current god forms" are basic ideas: Goku and Vegeta are simply far stronger and have access to greater potential power now than they did before.

Unless you think all this power they've gained in their base forms and transformations in addition to all this extra training to further tap into their hidden potential has done nothing at all to their Fusions, which I personally think is a bit silly.

Not to mention that Fusions aren't exactly something static. They're literally magically created beings formed from creating a union between other beings. There could be any number of extra factors like participant compatibility, random chance, etc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Beast has the largest from base power gain shown yet. Gohans base form is not on the level of Piccolo, Goku, Broly, or Vegetas base forms. He's far below their base forms. But when he goes Beast he has the edge in raw power against them in their best forms. Beast is an insane transformation, but I guess it makes sense seeing as its Gohan.

Based on Ultimate Gohan being >= Gamma 1, I’d think that gap has been closed and they’re the same in equivalent forms.

Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan
SSJB Goku = Ultimate Gohan = Base Broly
UI Goku = Gohan Beast = LSSJ Broly

Moro couldn't even be beat by A fusion when he merged with Seven in the Galactic Patrol arc. A fusion is not even close to Beerus.

Because Moro has the power to defuse fusions… It’s blatantly stated even Blue fusion is at least as strong as Beerus.

How strong is Slim Boo from the DBS anime?

Stronger than Boohan? Stronger than Moro arc Mr. Boo? In-between?

He tangled with Base2 Goku (calling Base2 to the SSG-tier base Goku portrayals since they're so inconsistent).

As strong as base Goku, whatever that is. At least Gotenks-Boo level.

think the simplest way to solve the inconsistence is to say Goku is suppressed instead of giving him an invisible form. It’s the same answer but less complicated.

I think I've pretty much settled on Super Saiyan fusions being about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue (Gotenks being the only exception so far). Some may be slightly stronger, some slightly weaker, but I think that's more or or less where they stand.

Which means, to me personally, Super Vegetto in the Boo arc is around RoF SSB tier (which also fits with Super Vegetto being called stronger than SS4 Baby arc Goku, and SSB/SS4 being portrayed as equals in Heroes and other media). I think this one is what will raise the most eyebrows but I prefer to keep things consistent with the scaling below.

Super Gogeta >/= SSB Goku/Vegeta
UIS Goku > Anime SS2 Kefla > SSBKKx20 Goku > SS Kefla =/> SSB Goku
Manga SSB Goku >/= Ultimate Gohan = SS Kefla

The "God is an astronomical multiplier" thing has clearly been done away with. It's SS3x10 to me right now. Which means there's not such a ridiculous difference between SS and SSB, though I'd also entertain the possibility that fusions have reduced multipliers as well.

But what about Super Gogeta >>>> SSJB in the Broly movie?

For me it always seemed like the ritual gave SSJG an extra boost. I have SSJG just 2x SSJ3, but the ritual also giving Goku a 1,000x boost overall.

Z Super Vegetto ~ SSJG is understandable, but making Super Vegetto a rival to SSJB is insane.

[Hugo Boss]

I think you could totally justify fusions overlapping god forms based on the characters getting massively stronger themselves. But I don’t think there is a definitive answer for this. SSG in Battle of Gods was supposed to be close to Beerus in power, although only 60%, which would be more than enough of a reason for the idea of this form being superior to Super Vegetto.

I think the issue mainly stems from the fact that SSG and SSB are currently far below Beerus in the serializations and movies from Dragon Ball Super, to the point we could easily have Super Vegetto above SSG or even SSB.

[Miracles]

\

Moro couldn't even be beat by A fusion when he merged with Seven in the Galactic Patrol arc. A fusion is not even close to Beerus.

Because Moro has the power to defuse fusions… It’s blatantly stated even Blue fusion is at least as strong as Beerus.

Moro has to damage fusions for Spirit Fission to work. Also, no Blue fusion was stated to be as strong as Beerus.

[picc]

How strong are:

Current base Goku and Vegeta

Current Android 18

Current Uub

[Koitsukai]

How strong are:

Current base Goku and Vegeta

Current Android 18

Current Uub

Very hard to say, and not just because there are two and maybe three continuities.

The anime treated them above Gotenks until the main stories landed, when they were somewhat above Namek Freeza. But for the filler scenes, they were above Super Buu, for sure. The god-ki powered base messed things up too.
The manga never went that nuts, probably as strong as some androids from Z. Goku and Trunks were even as SS2.

Android 18 didn't get as strong as 17, but she seems to have gotten stronger, so IDK, maybe 2nd form Cell?

Uub hasn't been portrayed yet, but if he is pushing base Goku in EoZ, that's in a couple of years, then he probably will be as strong as Goku. But most likely that's a power he unlocks during that fight, he is not as strong as Goku while training in his island with his brothers

[picc]

Very hard to say, and not just because there are two and maybe three continuities.

The anime treated them above Gotenks until the main stories landed, when they were somewhat above Namek Freeza. But for the filler scenes, they were above Super Buu, for sure. The god-ki powered base messed things up too.
The manga never went that nuts, probably as strong as some androids from Z. Goku and Trunks were even as SS2.

Android 18 didn't get as strong as 17, but she seems to have gotten stronger, so IDK, maybe 2nd form Cell?

Uub hasn't been portrayed yet, but if he is pushing base Goku in EoZ, that's in a couple of years, then he probably will be as strong as Goku. But most likely that's a power he unlocks during that fight, he is not as strong as Goku while training in his island with his brothers

Asking primarily about the manga versions of all.

Goku's base form (presumably equal to Vegeta's) is stronger than Kaioshin in the U6 tournament arc, which is really impressive depending on how strong you think Kaoishin is. Both their base forms have gone through huge, huge training upgrades since then. Its anybodys guess and one is as good as the other, just curious for opinions.

For C18 we know she wasn't training since she became a mom. I was looking through the fight with Moro with 17, but she didn't really do anything so much as she acted as backup/support for C17. No quantifiable info from that battle aside from that she's clearly meant to be less than 17. Which we already knew.

Manga ToP she didn't fight anyone who fought the main characters, so we had no barometer for how strong her opponents were.

I can get behind 2nd form Cell. That's still a pretty big power creep from her Android Saga level considering she's not training, but believable given how easy 17 attained SSJ3 level power.

[Yuji]

Could the current cast (barring Whis/Beerus/Zeno button) deal with infinite Zamasu?

Both the anime universe Zamasu, and the manga 10 billion clone version. Because I feel one is significantly easier to deal with than the other.

[Koitsukai]

Very hard to say, and not just because there are two and maybe three continuities.

The anime treated them above Gotenks until the main stories landed, when they were somewhat above Namek Freeza. But for the filler scenes, they were above Super Buu, for sure. The god-ki powered base messed things up too.
The manga never went that nuts, probably as strong as some androids from Z. Goku and Trunks were even as SS2.

Android 18 didn't get as strong as 17, but she seems to have gotten stronger, so IDK, maybe 2nd form Cell?

Uub hasn't been portrayed yet, but if he is pushing base Goku in EoZ, that's in a couple of years, then he probably will be as strong as Goku. But most likely that's a power he unlocks during that fight, he is not as strong as Goku while training in his island with his brothers

Asking primarily about the manga versions of all.

Goku's base form (presumably equal to Vegeta's) is stronger than Kaioshin in the U6 tournament arc, which is really impressive depending on how strong you think Kaoishin is. Both their base forms have gone through huge, huge training upgrades since then. Its anybodys guess and one is as good as the other, just curious for opinions.

For C18 we know she wasn't training since she became a mom. I was looking through the fight with Moro with 17, but she didn't really do anything so much as she acted as backup/support for C17. No quantifiable info from that battle aside from that she's clearly meant to be less than 17. Which we already knew.

Manga ToP she didn't fight anyone who fought the main characters, so we had no barometer for how strong her opponents were.

I can get behind 2nd form Cell. That's still a pretty big power creep from her Android Saga level considering she's not training, but believable given how easy 17 attained SSJ3 level power.

Gotcha.

I'd say it's always a tad below what the fandom might think. Take Piccolo vs Moro, for example. The main consensus was that Big Green was as strong as Gohan because they were working together, and then came along SH and Picky was just as strong as he was in Z, or somewhat above that, but nowhere near Gohan's blue tier.

Same goes for the original understanding of Base Goku being way above Namek Freeza. BoG says he was not.

I'd separate the DBS manga in two, pre Merus and post Merus. The Saiyan base states grow significantly stronger when training in Yadrat and with Merus, and then the same thing happens when they apply UI to every form and learn Hakai.

Pre Merus, I think it's contradictory to have Goku above Shin while also being equal to Trunks as SS2, while still using Cell Games Gohan as a measurement stick, needing SS3 to match Trunks' FPSS2, and SSG to one shot.

If his base is above Shin, who could be stronger than Kamiccolo, then his SS2 should be well above the SS2 levels seen in the Buu arc. Either Shin was never intended to be that strong, or the SS forms aren't linear as we always thought, and the boost they provide isn't as great as was believed. Neither of those avenues has definitive answers, and since their bases grow a lot later on, I'm more inclined to say Shin was never that strong. After all, he was scared of every single little piece of shit Babidi recruited.

So I'd say Goku in base could fight the androids, which is already a hell of a feat. It is still a big growth, going from weaker than Freeza to rivaling the androids in a few arcs.

Post Merus, it's unclear just how strong they've gotten. A lot, I'd say, according to Vegeta's surprise at his newfound power on Yadrat. Their Blue forms perform way better than before, and they haven't been training those forms in particular. It's just the side effect of their training.

I suppose they're on Cell's turf by now. Not sure in what form, though. Goku can use UI principles in all of his forms, which made his base deal with the same SS Vegeta was dealing with, so he might be able to fight someone that's one tier above him.

By EoZ, I always assumed Goku was as strong as Kid Buu, since he is fighting Uub, but it isn't clear just how much of Buu's power Uub uses. Probably not his full power, but definitely something that could overwhelm SS2.
They might be already that strong, we don't even know if there's more growth waiting for them before EoZ.

[picc]

Great post. I'm going to sprinkle in with accordance to my own preconceptions.

Gotcha.

I'd say it's always a tad below what the fandom might think. Take Piccolo vs Moro, for example. The main consensus was that Big Green was as strong as Gohan because they were working together, and then came along SH and Picky was just as strong as he was in Z, or somewhat above that, but nowhere near Gohan's blue tier.

Was that a consensus? One can read that fight and see Piccolo in even more of a "support" role to Gohan than C18 was to C17. I never got the impression Piccolo was on Gohan's level from the Moro battle. Not even close. As far as I was concerned, he was right where he always was -- right below the SSJ's.

Same goes for the original understanding of Base Goku being way above Namek Freeza. BoG says he was not.

Yep, correct. As of BoG the base saiyans are not on Freeza's level. And shouldn't be, IMO.

I'd separate the DBS manga in two, pre Merus and post Merus. The Saiyan base states grow significantly stronger when training in Yadrat and with Merus, and then the same thing happens when they apply UI to every form and learn Hakai.

Those two instances specifically, yes. Don't forget Goku and Vegeta spent a year or two in the ROSAT in the Black saga, which I'm assuming also raised their base levels.

Pre Merus, I think it's contradictory to have Goku above Shin while also being equal to Trunks as SS2, while still using Cell Games Gohan as a measurement stick, needing SS3 to match Trunks' FPSS2, and SSG to one shot.

Possibly, but contradiction has never been an obstacle for DB power level scaling before, so that alone wouldn't convince me it was impossible.

If his base is above Shin, who could be stronger than Kamiccolo, then his SS2 should be well above the SS2 levels seen in the Buu arc. Either Shin was never intended to be that strong, or the SS forms aren't linear as we always thought, and the boost they provide isn't as great as was believed. Neither of those avenues has definitive answers, and since their bases grow a lot later on, I'm more inclined to say Shin was never that strong. After all, he was scared of every single little piece of shit Babidi recruited.

Agree. In fact, just a few pages ago in this thread you can find me arguing that Shin was never shown to be stronger than Piccolo, and Piccolo's bowing out of the tournament was due to Shin's divine aura and realizing who he was. Add in the repeated examples of Shin being shocked at everyone's power and never vice versa, and its clear (IMO) that Shin's first appearance was a red herring and the real point was to demonstrate how far mortals had come in relation to gods. Not vice versa.

"Destroy Namek Freeza with a single blast" is something even Trunks could have done in his first appearance. So there is a very low floor for where Shin's power level could be. I'm inclined to lean toward the lower end of it given his reaction to Pui-Pui and base Vegeta, and his being KO'd by an attack that base Goku took in the U6 arc. Meaning that the contradiction you mentioned isn't necessarily required.

I also don't think the SS forms are linear re: multiplication or ever were. So in my eyes, its perfectly reasonable for there not to be enormous gaps between his base --> SSJ form, and SSJ --> SSJ2, the later we get in the series. If one form is trained while the other isn't, it stands to reason that the gap between them would lessen. And since we see the saiyans training their base far more often than the SSJ forms...

Trunks matching SSJ3 with SSJ2 (and Vegeta surpassing it) purely through training backs this theory up also.

So I'd say Goku in base could fight the androids, which is already a hell of a feat. It is still a big growth, going from weaker than Freeza to rivaling the androids in a few arcs.

I can get behind this. Very reasonable given facts and logical extrapolation.

Post Merus, it's unclear just how strong they've gotten. A lot, I'd say, according to Vegeta's surprise at his newfound power on Yadrat. Their Blue forms perform way better than before, and they haven't been training those forms in particular. It's just the side effect of their training.

They definitely were training their blue forms though. Against Beerus and Merus, respectively. Also consider that their blue forms were going through real-time powerups during battle.

Also, remember we're a couple years out from the Granolah saga at this point. So they've both presumably been training the whole time before Gohan and Broly appeared for the last issue.

I suppose they're on Cell's turf by now. Not sure in what form, though. Goku can use UI principles in all of his forms, which made his base deal with the same SS Vegeta was dealing with, so he might be able to fight someone that's one tier above him.

Possibly. I thought your original Android twins pitch made sense, but I suppose Cell's first form at least isn't that far out. In fact, IIRC Kamiccolo was stronger than Cell's first form, and only got surpassed after he ate a few cities. So maybe we're talking Cell post-dinner for the base saiyans.

2nd form Cell seems a bit of a stretch to me, considering it was first form cell PLUS one of the Android's power. As many gains as the Saiyans made in base, that's a huge leap.

Huge, but admittedly not impossible.

By EoZ, I always assumed Goku was as strong as Kid Buu, since he is fighting Uub, but it isn't clear just how much of Buu's power Uub uses. Probably not his full power, but definitely something that could overwhelm SS2.
They might be already that strong, we don't even know if there's more growth waiting for them before EoZ.

Possibly. My head canon is that Uub had Buu's potential, but wasn't just a kid walking around his village with Majin Buu level power.

[Koitsukai]

I'll snip so it doesn't clog the page.

We are pretty much in agreement, I see.

Yeah, I remember people taking the Saganbo fight at face value. I never bought it because Piccolo was just there like an assistant at best. IIRC, 17 and 18 were doing the same thing, and she wasn't Blue tier either. Also, DB was never a franchise that skips the mention or provides such huge jumps in power without saying a word.

Shin is definitely a red herring, not everything is a power statement, sometimes the author has other things in mind like telling a story. Being as strong as pre-Rosat SS works for me. Piccolo is above that, for sure. To me, it was the Kami part that stepped down.
Also, since we know Piccolo didn't grow that much stronger by the time SH landed, and seeing how he performed in the U6 Tourney, I wonder what does that say, if at all, about this.

I meant that by the ToP, their bases might rival the androids, but after the Moro and Granolah arc, their bases should be stronger than that since they trained and had better results.
To me it seemed that their gains were bigger in those two last arcs than in the previous ones, that's why I'm thinking they could be on Cell's tier. Like, if SS is 100-ish, the androids were 400-500M, and 2nd Cell is closing in on 1,000M, then for the animated arcs they went from 100 to 500, and in the manga exclusive arcs, with bigger gains, they should at least be on the other end. But it's just a guess, it's arbitrary what I call "bigger gains".
I do believe it's probably not as much as I expect, since like I mentioned before whatever we usually believe, it never is as much.

And yeah, Uub was not fighting his brothers and other villagers with the power that destroyed the Earth. Whatever he unlocked was right there vs. Goku.