Which was the better sequel: GT, Super, or Daima ?

[The Dark Knight]

If you're going to put a gun to our heads and say, "New Dragon Ball only, no new IP!" then at least let the poor fuckers tell stories they want to tell and don't micromanage their creativity.

Dragon Ball is a merchandise commercial first, and a story second; the vast majority of this revival has been this way. Dragon Ball hasn't been a story since 1995.

I've been sitting through the currently running Jujutsu Kaisen Season 3 and I can't remember the last time a season of television so clearly felt like a love letter to filmmaking and to the series it was adapting.

The only parts of this franchise that can be compared to Jujutsu Kaisen (or any anime based on a manga) is the original DB & Z, as those too were based on a manga.

[Grimlock]

All that aside, I personally think the best sequel is DBO.

I agree. And I personally don't understand why Toriyama didn't use some of his great ideas in Super. If they wanted to bring Trunks back, I think the Time Patrol would be a great way to do so.

That's probably because Toriyama wasn't the one coming up with the stories; he was taking what was presented to him by the committee and putting his stamp on them.

Bardock's personality in the game lines up with the "modern version", what are the chance the developers simply knew at the time when all they had was the Bardock TV Special? Also, there are lot of ideas Toriyama said in interviews still not used by him in a series.

[JulieYBM]

If you're going to put a gun to our heads and say, "New Dragon Ball only, no new IP!" then at least let the poor fuckers tell stories they want to tell and don't micromanage their creativity.

Dragon Ball is a merchandise commercial first, and a story second; the vast majority of this revival has been this way. Dragon Ball hasn't been a story since 1995.

I've been sitting through the currently running Jujutsu Kaisen Season 3 and I can't remember the last time a season of television so clearly felt like a love letter to filmmaking and to the series it was adapting.

The only parts of this franchise that can be compared to Jujutsu Kaisen (or any anime based on a manga) is the original DB & Z, as those too were based on a manga.

You really do not need to say these things to the chick who has been on this forum for twenty years and been into anime even longer than that. I know that this is a commercial franchise, that does not mean that I need to suck their dicks. I am going to criticize them and hold them to a higher standard and I am going to encourage other fans to do the same.

[The Dark Knight]

I will give GT credit for not feeling like a merchandise commercial, as every decision is rooted in telling the story; that's not something I can't say about Daima and especially not about Super. GT has many, MANY issues going against it, but there's not a single moment in its 65 episodes that felt like it was trying to sell me something.

I am going to criticize them and hold them to a higher standard and I am going to encourage other fans to do the same.

You've got my vote. The sad thing is, these companies could be making more money in the long run if they'd actually put the stories first and let the quality of the writing sell the merchandise for them.

[BernardoCairo]

Tbh you're being generous giving it to BoG. It still sounds like a reunion special type movie before he came in. He changed all the details but the skeleton of the movie was not his.

I am not so sure about that. From what I have read about the movie, Toriyama himself said that he rewrote the entire script. He even mentioned feeling bad for the original screenwriter, who also stated that the final film turned out completely different from what he had initially written.
There may have been an original concept for Battle of Gods, but it clearly was not the same as the finished product. The earlier themes about what makes a hero were ultimately set aside. The darker tone that was first envisioned was also changed, reportedly in response to the 2011 earthquake and tsunami. On top of that, the main characters were significantly reworked.
It is a Toriyama story, but different from the original manga.

I will give GT credit for not feeling like a merchandise commercial, as every decision is rooted in telling the story; that's not something I can't say about Daima and especially not about Super. GT has many, MANY issues going against it, but there's not a single moment in its 65 episodes that felt like it was trying to sell me something.

GT is just as commercial as Super. It exists only because they did not want to let Dragon Ball go, even though the original author intended to conclude the story.
In the end, GT stopped not because the story had naturally reached its conclusion, but because it was no longer fulfilling its core purpose, which was to sell merchandise and maintain momentum for the brand. And they really tried to make it work. Just look at the Super 17 arc.

[The Dark Knight]

GT is just as commercial as Super.

We both know that's not true. GT at least tried to function as a natural continuation of Z (even if it did fall on its face every step of the way), unlike Super which was just one callback after another to past events for nostalgia purposes. Don't even get me started on the new form of the week Super's known for, unlike GT which introduced one form and stuck with it, half way through the series I may add.

[JulieYBM]

Every day I wish that Watanabe Yuusuke's script for Battle of Gods had not been tossed out.

[BernardoCairo]

We both know that's not true. GT at least tried to function as a natural continuation of Z (even if it did fall on its face every step of the way), unlike Super which was just one callback after another to past events for nostalgia purposes. Don't even get me started on the new form of the week Super's known for, unlike GT which introduced one form and stuck with it, half way through the series I may add.

It was trying to do its own thing, but it ended up abandoning that direction because it just was not commercially viable. Then we got the Super 17 arc, probably the biggest nothingburger in all of Dragon Ball, bringing the villains back from hell for the third consecutive time in three years. I see nothing that special in GT, honestly.

Every day I wish that Watanabe Yuusuke's script for Battle of Gods had not been tossed out.

Honestly, I think the final product turned out so good that I do not even mind. On its own, it is the best Dragon Ball we have gotten post 1995, in my opinion. And I think a big part of that comes from the fact that it felt very different from the previous movies. It told an actual story, did not revolve around a straightforward evil villain, and did not end with Goku winning by some last minute miracle.
The idea of Beerus being outright evil is honestly so lame.

[JulieYBM]

We both know that's not true. GT at least tried to function as a natural continuation of Z (even if it did fall on its face every step of the way), unlike Super which was just one callback after another to past events for nostalgia purposes. Don't even get me started on the new form of the week Super's known for, unlike GT which introduced one form and stuck with it, half way through the series I may add.

It was trying to do its own thing, but it ended up abandoning that direction because it just was not commercially viable. Then we got the Super 17 arc, probably the biggest nothingburger in all of Dragon Ball, bringing the villains back from hell for the third consecutive time in three years. I see nothing that special in GT, honestly.

Every day I wish that Watanabe Yuusuke's script for Battle of Gods had not been tossed out.

Honestly, I think the final product turned out so good that I do not even mind. On its own, it is the best Dragon Ball we have gotten post 1995, in my opinion. And I think a big part of that comes from the fact that it felt very different from the previous movies. It told an actual story, did not revolve around a straightforward evil villain, and did not end with Goku winning by some last minute miracle.
The idea of Beerus being outright evil is honestly so lame.

The movie is an assault on the eyes and ears. It's a fun script brought to life by Yamadera's work as Beerus, but my god, does it look ugly and the music score from Sumitomo is horrendous. Yamamuro wouldn't have done any better a job even if Watanabe's original script had been used, of course, but at least it would be a more interesting story. And perhaps a more interestingly directed film to match the darker tone, who knows?

[BernardoCairo]

From the little we know of the script, I sincerely doubt it. Beerus as a lame villain, character turning evil, Saiyajins being "evil" because of a virus... Goku probably would have won in the end by doing a Dragon Fist

As for Yamamuro, I think it was his best recent work. Far better looking than Fukkatso No F and Super at least. But not as good as what came after, of course.

[Kenji]

If you're going to put a gun to our heads and say, "New Dragon Ball only, no new IP!" then at least let the poor fuckers tell stories they want to tell and don't micromanage their creativity.

Dragon Ball is a merchandise commercial first, and a story second; the vast majority of this revival has been this way. Dragon Ball hasn't been a story since 1995.

I've been sitting through the currently running Jujutsu Kaisen Season 3 and I can't remember the last time a season of television so clearly felt like a love letter to filmmaking and to the series it was adapting.

The only parts of this franchise that can be compared to Jujutsu Kaisen (or any anime based on a manga) is the original DB & Z, as those too were based on a manga.

You really do not need to say these things to the chick who has been on this forum for twenty years and been into anime even longer than that. I know that this is a commercial franchise, that does not mean that I need to suck their dicks. I am going to criticize them and hold them to a higher standard and I am going to encourage other fans to do the same.

[Zebra]

No, not necessarily. A work can be out of a certain continuity and still be canonical.

If it's not part of the author's continuity, then it's not canonical.

By the way, what's your stance related to Dragon Ball Online?

Pretty sure it's not canon, as DBS contradicts it. No more canon than Xenoverse or Heroes, I'd say.

[Grimlock]

If it's not part of the author's continuity, then it's not canonical.

What makes something part of "author's continuity"? Their involvement in the project?

Pretty sure it's not canon, as DBS contradicts it. No more canon than Xenoverse or Heroes, I'd say.

How does Dragon Ball Super contradict Dragon Ball Online, exactly?

[The Dark Knight]

I like how fans' definition of "canon" today is whether or not something lines up with Super, a series that Toriyama was (at best) just a supervisor on. Your arguments would hold much more weight if you were arguing against something that didn't line up with the original manga; the source material that Toriyama actually wrote and drew himself. To add insult to injury, Super isn't even second on the "canon" hierarchy, as Toriyama was far more involved with Daima than he was with any of Super's plot lines. I would like to say Super wins the bronze trophy in the "canon" race, but sadly, that honor goes to Online, as he also contributed more there than he did with Super. Fourth place isn't bad though, as that puts it one step above GT...then again, GT was able to take more risks due to Toriyama's recommendation of setting it after Z, so maybe Super is fifth place on the "canon" ladder. Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that Super isn't anywhere near as relevant as some fans claim it to be, as we saw with how Toriyama and the other staff members on Daima flat out ignored it. It seems like the only criteria for writing a story is lining it up with the original manga, as it should be, so contradicting everything else seems acceptable.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama wrote the story outlines and designed Daima and Super just the same, he was simply more involved in the execution of Daima by way of overseeing the scripts themselves (despite his lack of experience with writing for anime).

I feel like what I'm seeing from fandom discourse here is a really impractical approach to how we approach the 'validity' of any one project. I, me, the individual woman writing this post, understand that my own personal views on any given subject are ultimately pointless to whatever the production committee members ultimately decide to go with. I also understand that it's simply impractical to have a rigid approach to any of this shit. Is my personal enjoyment tied to 'canon'? Not really. There's a lot of weird anime-only shit that I love in this franchise. The Strongest Guy in the World is a cool as shit movie!

The rush to declare Super 'decanonized' by the existence of Daima has never made sense to me and feels like people don't really understand how loosey-goosey Toriyama is about this shit. This isn’t some American franchise where IP holders jerk off to rigid canon out of a sense of professionalism and artistry, this is one weird guy making shit up and not really remembering if he's accidentally contradicting himself because he doesn't take this shit too seriously. The man doesn't even remember what Super Saiyan forms are which!

People have got to learn to just fuckin' unclinch their booty holes and accept that they aren't in charge of this shit and their standards for consistency aren't going to be followed. It's an impractical approach to this shit. 'Canon' is minor enough an aspect of this series that you do, indeed, gotta just meet Dragon Ball where it's at.

That or find some way to make me goddess empress of Dragon Ball and I'll use my weird ass autism to make everything line up somehow. Blahn blah, blah

[Zebra]

If it's not part of the author's continuity, then it's not canonical.

What makes something part of "author's continuity"?

If it's part of the manga, for one. And if it's not but the author still worked on it, we would need to be given some indication or confirmation that it's part of the manga's continuity.

How does Dragon Ball Super contradict Dragon Ball Online, exactly?

In Dragon Ball Online, it's said that there was no rule forbidding mortals from traveling through time; Chronoa only made it one after Trunks traveled through time in the Android/Cell arc. In DBS, time travel was been banned by the gods long before Trunks did it.

[Grimlock]

If it's part of the manga, for one.

Doesn't Dragon Ball Online only using manga panels as cutscenes, manga-only content, down to manga colors make it part of the manga?

And if it's not but the author still worked on it

It is pretty well known that Toriyama was a part of the game's production. Shouldn't that make it part of the manga, then?

we would need to be given some indication or confirmation that it's part of the manga's continuity.

Doesn't Toriyama saying it takes place after the manga confirmation of that?

In Dragon Ball Online, it's said that there was no rule forbidding mortals from traveling through time; Chronoa only made it one after Trunks traveled through time in the Android/Cell arc. In DBS, time travel was been banned by the gods long before Trunks did it.

I looked everywhere but I couldn't find any statement like that. Quite the contrary, Dragon Ball Online's guidebook outright states that time travel is forbidden, hence why Trunks became a Time Patroller in the first place. I would ask you to please know what you are talking about, and do not make up stuff.

Never mind that, how does that one single and supposed "contradiction" makes Dragon Ball Online not canonical? It doesn't contradict anything from the original manga, which is far more important than Dragon Ball Super. Also, shouldn't you be saying that Dragon Ball Super is not canonical too since it is blatantly contradicted by both the original manga and by posterior works (such as Dragon Ball Daima)? Dragon Ball Super is not some higher authority on anything, really.

[Zebra]

Doesn't Dragon Ball Online only using manga panels as cutscenes, manga-only content, down to manga colors make it part of the manga?

Not at all. The Super DBZ game used manga colors, too, and referenced some official artwork from Toriyama, but that doesn't make it canon to the manga.

At the end of the day, DBO is just a MMORPG that wasn't even released outside of South Korea, iirc. It greatly influenced other games like Xenoverse and Heroes, but neither DBS nor Daima acknowledge it.

Doesn't Toriyama saying it takes place after the manga confirmation of that?

You would think so, but somewhere down the line, he clearly changed his mind.

I would ask you to please know what you are talking about, and do not make up stuff.

You could've just asked me to provide a source instead of acting hostile. With that said, I may have confused DBO with Xenoverse here. From DB Wiki:

She, however, is quite benevolent as she allowed Future Trunks' alterations to remain as she understood Trunks' intentions were noble and ultimately for the greater good. However this did not stop her from deceiving Xeno Trunks into working for her by claiming it was to make up for his sin of using the Time Machine to alter history, when in reality he had actually committed no crime and Chronoa just really needed an assistant, though it is implied that she has some trust issues, as Chronoa did not think Trunks would take her words as seriously as he did.

If the bolded wasn't in DBO, it was in Xenoverse. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Never mind that, how does that one single and supposed "contradiction" makes Dragon Ball Online not canonical?

Because DBS is treated as the main, canonical continuation of the manga's continuity. DBO is just a cancelled videogame. The DBS vs Daima debate might be up in the air, but DBO shouldn't still be in the discussion. And I'm pretty sure DBO references the Burdack TV special, which was rendered moot by Dragon Ball Minus and DBS.

While DBS does clash with the original manga at times, it's still set in Toriyama's own continuity for the series. He chose to retcon stuff that was in the original manga for DBS to work. So, while the original manga is mostly still canon (technically, it was already partly overwritten by the Kanzenban), DBS overwrote some parts of it.

It doesn't contradict anything from the original manga, which is far more important than Dragon Ball Super.

You asked me how it contradicts DBS, though.

[Grimlock]

At the end of the day, DBO is just a MMORPG that wasn't even released outside of South Korea, iirc. It greatly influenced other games like Xenoverse and Heroes, but neither DBS nor Daima acknowledge it.

The availability of something is irrelevant. Tarble OVA hasn't been released worldwide, that didn't stop Tarble from being mentioned thrice. Dragon Ball Online's Yadorats appear in the Dragon Ball Super manga, but you will ignore that too and come up with some excuse to continue to ignore it.


But it is like I thought, it's just a bunch of arbitrary preferences. If we go by your own "settings", Dragon Ball Daima pretty much throws Dragon Ball Super out of the canon (or would have if this franchise had one), but here you are with double standards to uphold one and dismiss the other. Sure, you are entitled to your preferences, but try to be coherent about it at least.