Where will the franchise go after Super?

[Skar]

No one thought Ash would beat the Pokémon Leagues and no one thought Ash would get replaced as the main character, yet those things has recently happened.
The main character is Liko.

That's true but Pokémon is a different kind of franchise than DB. It started out as a video game that explores a new region every generation with different looking protagonists. The anime had one protagonist who doesn't age and it might've been getting overdone that he keeps resetting every new region. It's still about the world of Pokémon like the games while DB was always Goku's story and everything else in the franchise has focused on him.

There's a reason why having a new GeGeGe no Kitarou animated adaption every decade worked lol.

Kitaro is one example but I think that had an anniversary reboot anime every decade. The vast majority of shonen franchises haven't really done that. Since the original run in the 90s, DB had a recut closer to the manga only covering Z and two midquels or three if you include Heroes since it seems like it also took place in the same time period. The original DB ended almost 30 years but still widely available to read or watch and they never thought they needed to remake it to appeal to newer audience. The closest we had was Path to Power and GT/Daima with Goku being turned back into a kid.

[JulieYBM]

No one thought Ash would beat the Pokémon Leagues and no one thought Ash would get replaced as the main character, yet those things has recently happened.
The main character is Liko.

That's true but Pokémon is a different kind of franchise than DB. It started out as a video game that explores a new region every generation with different looking protagonists. The anime had one protagonist who doesn't age and it might've been getting overdone that he keeps resetting every new region. It's still about the world of Pokémon like the games while DB was always Goku's story and everything else in the franchise has focused on him.

Changing the protagonist for AniPoke was due to a combination of factors, if memory serves: they were concerned about the aging staff and cast and wanted to defer to Chief Director Yuyama.

Kitaro is one example but I think that had an anniversary reboot anime every decade. The vast majority of shonen franchises haven't really done that. Since the original run in the 90s, DB had a recut closer to the manga only covering Z and two midquels or three if you include Heroes since it seems like it also took place in the same time period. The original DB ended almost 30 years but still widely available to read or watch and they never thought they needed to remake it to appeal to newer audience. The closest we had was Path to Power and GT/Daima with Goku being turned back into a kid.

Numerous older series do complete or even just partial recasts when new adaptions are produced. While Dragon Ball has nominally been free from that, it's still a series that can and will inevitably be updated with a new adaption.

[Skar]

Numerous older series do complete or even just partial recasts when new adaptions are produced. While Dragon Ball has nominally been free from that, it's still a series that can and will inevitably be updated with a new adaption.

I was talking about similar genre or type of shonen that are more martial arts/action oriented. If DB doesn't get a remake then I think it's just following the same trend as all those series that never had one. HxH, Dragon Quest, Black Cover, and now OP have remakes to adapt the manga more faithfully. I'm not sure how many of those kinds had a remake for the sake of redoing the same story in a different artstyle. Something like Path to Power or the intro of Super Hero seems like they were done in place of a complete remake.

[Tian]

Kai didn't do well in Japan, yes, but it was a huge success internationally, which led to The Final Chapters being created.

Same thing happened with Sonic X. It didn't do well in its native Japan but it was popular in Europe and the Americas.

In fact, such popularity overseas was the reason the show got a third season (The Metarex Saga).

Unlike the rest of the world, where that third season was aired normally in their respective networks, Japan originally had the season only on DVDs and it wasn't aired on TV until 2020 as part of a promotion for the then upcoming Sonic live-action film.

[kiarasuraru]

No one thought Ash would beat the Pokémon Leagues and no one thought Ash would get replaced as the main character, yet those things has recently happened.
The main character is Liko.

That's true but Pokémon is a different kind of franchise than DB. It started out as a video game that explores a new region every generation with different looking protagonists. The anime had one protagonist who doesn't age and it might've been getting overdone that he keeps resetting every new region. It's still about the world of Pokémon like the games while DB was always Goku's story and everything else in the franchise has focused on him.

Dragon Ball also hasn't had a Kalos League-tier shitstorm causing them to realize they kinda fucked up, nor does it have a Yokai Watch making it scared shitless of losing its position. And remember, even with all that happened and all those changes, they STILL were gonna have Ash lose at the Alola League at first.
Ash didn't leave because it was naturally his time to go, it's because they finally got into their head the situation they themselves caused became untenable and the now gangrenous limb had to be chopped off.
Really different situations all around. Completely different types of franchises.

As for Dragon Ball, they "could" do it, but it would be something completely different from that kind of "seasonal" anime series. And also very different from the sort of "episodic endless" series like, Say, Doraemon or the Kitaro example people were giving on some posts which is what allows for those series to be endlessly remade and interpreted and given different spins because of how malleable they are as consequence of that episodic-ness. Dragon Ball doesn't fit the bill for that type of things.

Remake, the most likely and most safe, sequel akin to Boruto or Modulo or Korra or whatever, very unlikely and quite risky, or straight-up going full What-if just like my Goku Trapped in the Time Chamber Youtubers, which is lol lmao.

[WittyUsername]

Super doesn’t even seem like it has an actual finale in mind. It’s been spinning its wheels for years now. Goku’s entire motivation post-BoG has supposedly been to surpass Beerus, but he apparently hasn’t gotten any closer to achieving that goal since 2013, because the powers that be seem to be treating Beerus as the Yujiro Hanma of Dragon Ball.

At this point, Super seems like something that’s just going to try and drag on indefinitely. The Pokemon anime comparisons are appropriate in that regard.

[JulieYBM]

Yuyama Kunihiko kept Satoshi from winning the Pokemon League because he felt that there wouldn't be anywhere else for him to go and because his role as a character was never to grow up. That's why Satoshi remains ten years old, even after becoming the Champion of Alola in Sun & Moon and defeating Dande at the end of the 2019 series.

But the thing about that was, the Leagues were never explicitly about making Satoshi a 'Pokemon Master'. That question remains unanswered by the series when Mezase Pokemon Master (2023) ends. Satoshi decides that he wants to keep traveling the world and meeting new Pokemon and that is how the Satoshi series 'ends'—it's honestly a better constructed take on what Toriyama was trying to do with the end of the original Dragon Ball comic in 1995.

I've always found the fan reaction to Satoshi losing the Kalos League to be really indicative of how nobody was really paying attention to XY's story. It was really obvious that Alan was going to defeat Satoshi, because Alan actually had a character arc and Satoshi didn't. It wasn't until Sun & Moon that Satoshi winning actually had proper support throughout the series to build up to the big finale.

This is a large part of what I'm not really invested in Gokuu as a character. His progress is muddled and we don't really know what the culmination of his arc is supposed to look like. You could watch, say, Pocket Monsters: Diamond & Pearl and know that the big finale of that series was going to be Satoshi either defeating Shinji in the League or causing some big change in him, even if he lost. When Satoshi beat Shinji in the quarterfinals, it should have been obvious that he was going to lose in the semi-finals to a random trainer, the story was over.

If I have a big criticism of Dragon Ball Super, it's that it wants to be Pokemon m, but Toriyama had not actually watched or understood Pokemon. Oddly enough, it's Tomioka Atsuhiro's guidance of the Tournament of Power arc that best captures the feeling of a the old AniPoke series format because Tomioka wrote for those lol

[SupremeKai25]

Super doesn’t even seem like it has an actual finale in mind. It’s been spinning its wheels for years now. Goku’s entire motivation post-BoG has supposedly been to surpass Beerus, but he apparently hasn’t gotten any closer to achieving that goal since 2013, because the powers that be seem to be treating Beerus as the Yujiro Hanma of Dragon Ball.

At this point, Super seems like something that’s just going to try and drag on indefinitely. The Pokemon anime comparisons are appropriate in that regard.

I mean, there's the legal issue that's put Super on hold for the past 3-4 years. I'm sure there's still a general idea that the story of Super will flow into the End of Dragon Ball Z. The Moro saga placed a huge emphasis on Uub's potential thanks to Majin Buu/God Ki. The Super Hero movie takes place, what, 1 year before the End of DBZ? They are advancing the timeline, they are putting the pieces into place (why else would the Moro saga focus on Uub and Majin Buu so much?).

[kemuri07]

Super doesn’t even seem like it has an actual finale in mind. It’s been spinning its wheels for years now. Goku’s entire motivation post-BoG has supposedly been to surpass Beerus, but he apparently hasn’t gotten any closer to achieving that goal since 2013, because the powers that be seem to be treating Beerus as the Yujiro Hanma of Dragon Ball.

At this point, Super seems like something that’s just going to try and drag on indefinitely. The Pokemon anime comparisons are appropriate in that regard.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: Super is specifically made so that they can spin out Dragon Ball stories for all of eternity without ever having to stake a claim as being a true successor to DBZ. And Super wont ever make good on that specific narrative because that might change the status quo, and Toei absolutely does not want that.

[Kenji]

Hey, remember when GT was in pre-production and they were planning to make it set between the same time-skip Super is set now, but they ultimately decided that was a bad idea, because it would feel like it would be "dragging out Dragon Ball"? Yeah...

[JulieYBM]

We should bring an end to the system that incentivizes and demand the commercialization of the arts.

[kiarasuraru]

Yuyama Kunihiko kept Satoshi from winning the Pokemon League because he felt that there wouldn't be anywhere else for him to go and because his role as a character was never to grow up. That's why Satoshi remains ten years old, even after becoming the Champion of Alola in Sun & Moon and defeating Dande at the end of the 2019 series.

But the thing about that was, the Leagues were never explicitly about making Satoshi a 'Pokemon Master'. That question remains unanswered by the series when Mezase Pokemon Master (2023) ends. Satoshi decides that he wants to keep traveling the world and meeting new Pokemon and that is how the Satoshi series 'ends'—it's honestly a better constructed take on what Toriyama was trying to do with the end of the original Dragon Ball comic in 1995.

I've always found the fan reaction to Satoshi losing the Kalos League to be really indicative of how nobody was really paying attention to XY's story. It was really obvious that Alan was going to defeat Satoshi, because Alan actually had a character arc and Satoshi didn't. It wasn't until Sun & Moon that Satoshi winning actually had proper support throughout the series to build up to the big finale.

And Yuyama was plain and simply wrong, and Ash's entire character and journey suffered from it. Ash being 10 years was never the issue, not knowing what a Pokemon Master was never it either, and let's be honest, let's not pretend that they didn't come up with what definition for "Pokemon Master" until after they decided Journeys was when he had to go so it's not like not knowing what it meant impeded anything either, never letting actually win and genuine progress was always is, and by the time it happened it was too little too late.

Feels like you got XY and SM reversed if anything. Genuinely have no idea how you went through XY and thought there was no build-up for Ash to finally win the League but thought there was in SM. Don't even know what you're referring to with "proper support" either. Hell, we even know now for a fact thanks to the Teraleak that Yuyama was gonna double down and make Ash lose the Alola League so him winning that one was not planned at all.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: Super is specifically made so that they can spin out Dragon Ball stories for all of eternity without ever having to stake a claim as being a true successor to DBZ. And Super wont ever make good on that specific narrative because that might change the status quo, and Toei absolutely does not want that.

It's funny, when you think about it, Xeno3 will be the most "successor" of them all because of the era in which the game's set. Of course, to the majority of people it "doesn't count" since it is a game. Just another little funny non-canon funsie to mess around with. And good lord is it gonna go for looooooong before they dare try something else if Xeno 2 is anything to go by.
People seriously do not realize how little Dragon Ball is gonna "progress" in the upcoming years. Just like you said, we're in status quo purgatory, and that's a feature, not a bug.

[The Dark Knight]

Toyotaro said that Super would lead into the end of Z, so they were planning some kind of ending, and this was back in 2018 or 2019 if I'm remembering things correctly. I believe Super was made with flexibility in mind, but I don't think they ever intended it to become the next Simpsons that continues indefinitely, especially now with Toriyama's passing.

[JulieYBM]

Jesus Christ, I'm about to make a post that really has nothing to do with Dragon Ball lol

And Yuyama was plain and simply wrong, and Ash's entire character and journey suffered from it. Ash being 10 years was never the issue, not knowing what a Pokemon Master was never it either, and let's be honest, let's not pretend that they didn't come up with what definition for "Pokemon Master" until after they decided Journeys was when he had to go so it's not like not knowing what it meant impeded anything either, never letting actually win and genuine progress was always is, and by the time it happened it was too little too late.

Feels like you got XY and SM reversed if anything. Genuinely have no idea how you went through XY and thought there was no build-up for Ash to finally win the League but thought there was in SM. Don't even know what you're referring to with "proper support" either. Hell, we even know now for a fact thanks to the Teraleak that Yuyama was gonna double down and make Ash lose the Alola League so him winning that one was not planned at all.

Satoshi plays the role of a battle shounen protagonist in XY, but he doesn't actually grow as a character because his arc exists in that framework. He had more reason to wind in his sails during DP—Satoshi's battle with Shinji should have been the final match of the Shin-ou League. Meanwhile, the focus on life, death and family in Sun & Moon gave Satoshi far more reason to win the League there.

The wording from the Teraleak is really vague about Yuyama's involvement in having Satoshi win the Alola League. We know that he was initially against it, but that doesn't actually say anything about things like the timing of when decisions were made. Since Sun & Moon's first episodes were being animated six-ish months before they premiered, the backlash to the Kalos League's ending would have obviously not had an effect on those earlier episodes, but that still leaves two-plus years for the series to be geared to Satoshi winning.

Which, like...yeah? Alan winning the Kalos League felt like the telegraphed conclusion because of the scale of his story arc as a rival in the series being bigger than even Shinji's had been in DP. Whether Satoshi was going to win any of the League at any point was something that would have been decided upon six-plus months in advance of broadcast because of the series' involved production.

My own personal opinion is mostly just that I've never actually hated any of the League endings. Well, the Hou-en League is this weird League that is a big nothing burger, but I honestly didn't mind Takuto defeating Satoshi in the Shin-ou League because he clearly only existed because Sutou, Asada and Tomioka were told, "Nah, Satoshi doesn't need to win" and then for the Isshu League Sutou and Tomioka were told no again, so Tomioka didn't bother to script the ending of the League himself and Fujita made Satoshi's loss intentionally dumb as hell as a "fuck you" to Yuyama, so I can't really blame him for that.

Honestly, if there's one ending to a tournament that I didn't really care for, it was Satoshi winning the Masters Tournament. Dande's really bland, but I would have preferred Satoshi to lose or at the very least, lost his first title defense. Alas.

***

Okay, okay, let me try to make this mildly on-topic to Dragon Ball: just actually fully make Gokuu into Satoshi and let story arcs actually be vehicles for other characters to be the protagonist. This is how the Future Trunks arc almost felt in the anime, anyway, and Jiren, Freeza, #17, Caulifla and Kale were ostensibly this during the Tournament of Power.

Is it bad that Gokuu sucks and never develops into an interesting character whose actions are held against him and cause permanent change to him and the story? Yes. Is that ever going to change? Probably not, so roll with the punches and develop other characters, like Broly.

At the end of the day: commercial art all fucking sucks and should be launched into the sun.

[Skar]

Super doesn’t even seem like it has an actual finale in mind. It’s been spinning its wheels for years now. Goku’s entire motivation post-BoG has supposedly been to surpass Beerus, but he apparently hasn’t gotten any closer to achieving that goal since 2013, because the powers that be seem to be treating Beerus as the Yujiro Hanma of Dragon Ball.

At this point, Super seems like something that’s just going to try and drag on indefinitely. The Pokemon anime comparisons are appropriate in that regard.

I think that's the reason why they keep retconning Beerus' power because there is no other finale in mind. It seemed it finally happened in the ToP with Goku obtaining UI a technique that no God of Destruction was able to master. There were still a few years left in the timeline so it was later revealed that Goku is still weaker than Beerus even with UI and maybe needs to fully master it.

I think the fact that they were willing to have a few year timeskip to SH instead of cramming as many arcs into that period might show they were winding down and near the end. Before that the timeline was moving forward slower maybe because Toriyama how long he wanted to continue. It probably won't be until 2028 that the remake reaches SH and we find out what will happen after.

Okay, okay, let me try to make this mildly on-topic to Dragon Ball: just actually fully make Gokuu into Satoshi and let story arcs actually be vehicles for other characters to be the protagonist. This is how the Future Trunks arc almost felt in the anime, anyway, and Jiren, Freeza, #17, Caulifla and Kale were ostensibly this during the Tournament of Power.

I feel that's how it was in most of DB amd most of the development went to other characters around Goku. Goku started out as a jungle boy, makes friends, trains with multiple martial arts masters, gets married and has kids. That was kind of the end of his development and after the Freeza saga he was becoming a martial arts master training the next generation.

[Mr Baggins]

I feel that's how it was in most of DB amd most of the development went to other characters around Goku. Goku started out as a jungle boy, makes friends, trains with multiple martial arts masters, gets married and has kids. That was kind of the end of his development and after the Freeza saga he was becoming a martial arts master training the next generation.

Well, even then, I'd say Goku gets plenty of development as a character after starting a family of his own. The Saiyan and Frieza arcs see him coming to grips with his heritage. The Cell arc sees him passing the baton, something he struggled with since he was pushing Gohan into a role the latter wasn't actually very receptive to. The Buu arc sees him making all kinds of mistakes out of selfish choices, including passing the baton to another couple of kids who obviously weren't prepared for it, and then realizing by the end (via Uub) that his decisions didn't have to be mutually exclusive – he can continue to be present and satisfy his whims as a martial artist while taking on a successor.

It's a lot subtler than, say, Vegeta's development, but it's there. Even through Super, a markedly inferior product to the original, the two Saiyans continue to be my favorite characters in the franchise for a reason.

[kemuri07]

The Buu arc has probably become my favorite DBZ arc as an adult simply because it’s Toriyama most mature writing in terms of how he depicts the characters. It’s also has a real fun black comedy streak that I don’t think we’ve seen since the original DB.

But also I just really like how Goku is portrayed in this arc. While he’s always had the luxury of being able to fuck off and train before a big bout, here he basically has to come up on the spot with solutions to a worsening situation. It’s both funny as hell while also illuminating Goku trying to be an adult while also “still being Goku”. But it works here and still feels within his character. Instead of, whatever the fuck Super was trying to do with him.

[Saiya6Cit]

If they continue dragon ball beyond super I would prefer that the story happens after 1000 years have passed and the show is based on the adventures from the descendants from Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr. They can mention Goku for sure, but Goku would not be there.

That is right, I would prefer a story that follows GT ending, after Goku already fused to sheng long because I am getting a little tired of the Goku and Vegeta show when they act out of character and they are like but "it is still Goku and Vegeta" no, they are not. It is not them if they don't act like them.

Daima was the last show that had some Toriyama involvement and after his passing, nothing will ever be really his. And that does not have to mean the end of the franchise. Together DBZ and DBS have created a universe where Toei Animation can do the same thing the fans have been doing for decades: Put your own OCs inside the DB Universe. More saiyans (halfbreed) = more love.

As the critic from Ratatouille says: Surprise me!

I can assure you that it would be much better than destroying the characters we all grew up loving.

[GurixDr34]

I believe Dragon Ball Super will never end Dragon Ball is one of the Anime series that generates a lot of money worldwide I'm sure it will never end Dragon Ball will transcend far beyond its own creator it has become too big they tried with GT to give the franchise a definitive ending but i doubt anything will be repeated Dragon Ball Super will be something similar to Dragon Ball AF where Goku and Vegeta never age and will face new villains and have new transformations forever at least thats what i think they will do but i dont know i just hope that Gohan Pan Goten and Trunks can shine in the new sagas even if only a little