How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[MasenkoHA]

OK, another simple question:
Did you guys feel anything about Kuririn's death in GT? Or Piccolo's death in Super?[/

I mean, it's functional. I know why it's there. The writers want me to feel sad because this character we have known for so long has died. But personally? Neither of these moments brought me any reaction other than "Meh!" and possibly a lot of frustration, for one simple reason:

I have already seen this repeated to Hell.

I have already seen Kuririn, Roshi and Chiaotzu die in the Piccolo saga.
I have already seen Piccolo make the Dragon Balls unusable during the Piccolo saga and make their resurrections impossible.
I have already seen Chiaotzu die a second time in the Saiyan Saga and Tien go "Oh no, now we can't resurrect him anymore, I'm so angry!"

So when all of this happens again during Freeza, with Goku whining that he's so angry because he can't bring Kuririn back... I felt nothing. Maybe it's the power of foresight, knowing what will happen next, but the fact this is a common occurrence in this story and not a self-contained incident didn't do the scene any favors.

Yes, the characters are functional, I know why all of this is happening.
Does it make interesting or original? No.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: I don't think "We have stock characters we can beat/kill at the plot's convenience, often while they wait for Goku to save them" is anywhere near good writing. If it happened just once, fine. But when it happens so damn often? No.

Insert stock quote of “it’s not about the destination it’s the journey”

We (and those probably includes the child audience the series is already for) at knows Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Piccolo’s death isn’t going to stick the question is how since last time “oh look our get out of death card expired we had God re-issuing it and now he’s gone too” and that leads to Namek.

We can probably guess Kuririn’s death at the hands of Freeza won’t last but the scene isn’t meant to dwell on “Kuririns died this is sad” it’s about the moment of Goku finally becoming Super Saiyan. Seriously, compare how Kuririn’s death is framed at the Daimao arc to how it’s framed in the Freeza arc. The first one is meant to be shocking and sad. The second one is just the trigger to the big moment the arc had been building up to for some time. It needs to be real to Goku (Porunga is gone and Shen Long can’t be brought back) it doesn’t have to be real to us because our focus is on Goku’s transformation.

[Koitsukai]

Krilin's death in GT is such a nothing burger that I don't even take it seriously. It's so irrelevant that, except for his wife, nobody is even aware it happened. It wasn't even meant to affect the main characters, only to fuel one character: 18.
Piccolo's is so forced and whimsical that it's obvious they were trying to hit the emotional nerve.

Death in DB is not meant to be taken seriously, it's how they die, it's what it means in that moment.
Krilin's first death meant the first death of a friend... sure, they can bring him back, but it's meeting Death for the first time.

His second death encompasses everything Mike said (a streak of attacks and failures) and having nothing left to lose. It's every death from the Saiyan arc, Vegeta's, Dende's, Piccolo's "death", the death of hope after the Genki Dama fails, and now Krilin's. It works because the moment has weight, context, and buildup.

His third death means nothing, even if he is gone for the rest of the show, and it's not because he has died before, it's because the story barely even notices it. The issue isn't repetition, it's execution. The same narrative tool can be powerful when it's properly built up (original story), and completely empty when it isn't (GT).

[JulieYBM]

It becomes difficult tell how often I'm just repeating myself when I say this, but, like, 'everything is a tool' is my go-to phrase for writing. That is to say, I think the Kuririn death in Dragon Ball GT isn't a bad idea, it just doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things for the characters. There's no lasting impact and it's glossed over after one pretty gnarly scream from Itou Miki. It's a cotton candy plot point that provide an immediate sugar rush but doesn't sustain you and you're back in the kitchen ten minutes later looking for someone else to eat. How does Kuririn feel when he comes back to life? How does #18 feel afterward? How does Gokuu feel? Marron? What if Kuririn had simply remained dead, what would that have done for #18 and Marron as characters? Would #18 have been more active a character if we got to see more into her internal workings in the face of Kuririn's death? Piccolo had already died and stayed dead, so why not keep Kuririn dead and explore where that goes in the plot? At that point, it's breaking 'the rules of Dragon Ball' and Dragon Ball always prides itself on breaking rules, so just go with it and see what you can do.

[Yellow Flower King]

Krilin's death in GT is such a nothing burger that I don't even take it seriously. It's so irrelevant that, except for his wife, nobody is even aware it happened. It wasn't even meant to affect the main characters, only to fuel one character: 18.
Piccolo's is so forced and whimsical that it's obvious they were trying to hit the emotional nerve.

Death in DB is not meant to be taken seriously, it's how they die, it's what it means in that moment.
Krilin's first death meant the first death of a friend... sure, they can bring him back, but it's meeting Death for the first time.

His second death encompasses everything Mike said (a streak of attacks and failures) and having nothing left to lose. It's every death from the Saiyan arc, Vegeta's, Dende's, Piccolo's "death", the death of hope after the Genki Dama fails, and now Krilin's. It works because the moment has weight, context, and buildup.

His third death means nothing, even if he is gone for the rest of the show, and it's not because he has died before, it's because the story barely even notices it. The issue isn't repetition, it's execution. The same narrative tool can be powerful when it's properly built up (original story), and completely empty when it isn't (GT).

I have to praise Krillin's death on GT because it does something almost no shonen anime does: Kill a male character to motivate/develop a a female character. Krillin's death in GT would be bland and lame had it not been for his family's reaction to it. 18 is devastated, as is his daughter. Also I also have to vouch for his death on the Buu arc. In the Buu arc he gives his life for his family... only for his family to be killed too and slaughtered along with everyone else. Kohei Miyauchi's final line as Muten Roshi is "KURIRIN" in that slaughter fest so it does hit home a lot.

Any death in Super sans Bulma in the Goku Black arc is lame tho.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I didn't even remember that Krillin died in GT lol such a nothingburner moment, entirely forgettable

Piccolo's death in Super is way worse though

[Zebra]

It's repetitive, and it was particularly annoying how the Freeza arc did it twice.

Krilin's death in GT is such a nothing burger that I don't even take it seriously. It's so irrelevant that, except for his wife, nobody is even aware it happened. It wasn't even meant to affect the main characters, only to fuel one character: 18.
Piccolo's is so forced and whimsical that it's obvious they were trying to hit the emotional nerve.

Death in DB is not meant to be taken seriously, it's how they die, it's what it means in that moment.
Krilin's first death meant the first death of a friend... sure, they can bring him back, but it's meeting Death for the first time.

His second death encompasses everything Mike said (a streak of attacks and failures) and having nothing left to lose. It's every death from the Saiyan arc, Vegeta's, Dende's, Piccolo's "death", the death of hope after the Genki Dama fails, and now Krilin's. It works because the moment has weight, context, and buildup.

His third death means nothing, even if he is gone for the rest of the show, and it's not because he has died before, it's because the story barely even notices it. The issue isn't repetition, it's execution. The same narrative tool can be powerful when it's properly built up (original story), and completely empty when it isn't (GT).

Kurilin's third death was when Boo killed him during the Boo arc, not GT. For all the criticism you gave his death in GT, it's ironic that you indirectly admitted it was more memorable than his death in the Boo arc. There was nothing to really be felt from his death in GT because he had already died so many times that it was practically a meme. But it ended up having some relevance in the plot as it motivated No.18 to help Gokuu out against Super No.17 later on.

Anyway, none of the deaths in the series are well-written, so it's silly to single out GT here. For an example, Kurilin's first death came out of nowhere with no build-up whatsoever; he's completely fine one page, and dead on the next. The tonal shift the Daimaoh arc brought was completely random. The only reason Kurilin's second death is memorable is because it led to Gokuu turning Super Saiyan for the first time, which was random in and of itself; Gokuu was never one to get stronger from rage.

By the time Kurilin died for the third time, there was nothing to be felt as he was just a glorified background character and death already lost all meaning long ago; Boo's genocide of humanity was practically treated as a joke, and Boo killing Kurilin and co. on the lookout was predictable. All those background characters were useless, and just taking up space, so they had to go. At least Super No.17 killing Kurilin had more of an impact as it tied into the arc's final act.

[MasenkoHA]

Anyway, none of the deaths in the series are well-written, so it's silly to single out GT here. For an example, Kurilin's first death came out of nowhere with no build-up whatsoever; he's completely fine one page, and dead on the next

Kuririn’s death was supposed to be shocking and unexpected. A feature not a bug.

The anime arguably handles it a bit better by creating a sense of foreboding when Kuririn goes to collect the dragon ball but the anime has the benefit of knowing it’s target audience knows Kuririn is going to die at this part from reading the manga, so they play with it.

.

The tonal shift the Daimaoh arc brought was completely random

It really wasn’t that big of a shift in tone from the Tenshinhan arc which wasn’t that big in a shift in tone from the end of the Red Ribbon arc with Tao Pai Pai.

.

The only reason Kurilin's second death is memorable is because it led to Gokuu turning Super Saiyan for the first time, which was random in and of itself; Gokuu was never one to get stronger from rage.

Random is when the series holds your hand and tells you firmly and very slowly (because you are a stupid eight-year old child. Presumably)” Goku. Is. Going. To. Become. The. Legendary. Super. Saiyan. To. Defeat. Freeza” well before it actually happens.

[Kenji]

Do you count Kuririn being turned to stone by Dabra as a death?
In that case, he died twice in the Boo arc, making his GT death his 5th.

Actually, a lot of characters died a lot in the Boo arc while waiting for Goku to save them, and it had no impact whatsoever.
Well, technically, waiting for Goten, Trunks and Gohan to save them, but Toriyama admitted he had already grown tired of the new generation idea shortly after beginning the story, so... "wait for Goten, Trunks and Gohan" was all just a red herring for "wait for Goku."

[Zebra]

Kuririn’s death was supposed to be shocking and unexpected.

Doesn't mean it should come out of nowhere. There wasn't even a single hint that Kurilin was going to die anytime soon. The Daimaoh arc wasn't foreshadowed at all.

It really wasn’t that big of a shift in tone from the Tenshinhan arc which wasn’t that big in a shift in tone from the end of the Red Ribbon arc with Tao Pai Pai.

The Tenshinhan arc barely had any stakes. Neither Tenshinhan nor Chiaotzu were legitimate villains, and Shen wasn't that intimidating, either; just an annoying old fart who was weaker than Gokuu, Tenshinhan, and Roushi. Come the Daimaoh arc, and a bunch of established characters are getting killed off left and right (Kurilin, Roushi, Chiaotzu, even Shen Long, etc).

(because you are a stupid eight-year old child. Presumably)

Nah, it was a random deus ex machina transformation. No build-up whatsoever.

[Yellow Flower King]

Do you count Kuririn being turned to stone by Dabra as a death?
In that case, he died twice in the Boo arc, making his GT death his 5th.

Actually, a lot of characters died a lot in the Boo arc while waiting for Goku to save them, and it had no impact whatsoever.
Well, technically, waiting for Goten, Trunks and Gohan to save them, but Toriyama admitted he had already grown tired of the new generation idea shortly after beginning the story, so... "wait for Goten, Trunks and Gohan" was all just a red herring for "wait for Goku."

...No? Why would anyone do thay?

[Kenji]

Nah, it was a random deus ex machina transformation. No build-up whatsoever.

But Super Saiyan 1 was built-up, though?
Vegeta and Freeza kept repeating it over and over again through the course of the entire Freeza arc.

What was not built-up was the way it was triggered. At no point whatsoever did Vegeta or Freeza say "You need to have a pure-heart awakened by rage", instead, Vegeta just assumed once you're powerful enough, you're a Super Saiyan.

And even then, yeah. It was a plot device that used nothing but Goku's anger to get them out of a hopeless situation.

...No? Why would anyone do thay?

Maybe I'm just putting it together in association with Piccolo getting knocked down and dismembered, but that wasn't a death either, so... Either way, "we have stock characters we can beat/kill at the plot's convenience to make the antagonist look more dangerous."

[MasenkoHA]

Kuririn’s death was supposed to be shocking and unexpected.

Doesn't mean it should come out of nowhere. There wasn't even a single hint that Kurilin was going to die anytime soon. The Daimaoh arc wasn't foreshadowed at all.

Do you know what shocking and unexpected means?

The Tenshinhan arc barely had any stakes. Neither Tenshinhan nor Chiaotzu were legitimate villains, and Shen wasn't that intimidating, either; just an annoying old fart who was weaker than Gokuu, Tenshinhan, and Roushi. Come the Daimaoh arc, and a bunch of established characters are getting killed off left and right (Kurilin, Roushi, Chiaotzu, even Shen Long, etc).

The Tenshinhan arc didn’t have high stakes beyond a simple prize student of the evil martial arts school wants to kill the prize student of the good martial arts school for revenge plot but it was more serious than the Red Ribbon arc which was more serious than the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc.

Shit got real in the Daimao arc but it wasn’t some tonal whiplash like if Kuririn died at the of the 21st Tournament which was a pure gag comic.

Nah, it was a random deus ex machina transformation. No build-up whatsoever.

Media literacy is dead and we dance on its corpse.

It was built up and telegraphed so plainly the absolute dumbest booger and crayon eating child in the audience should have been able to figure out the climax of the arc was Goku turning Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza

Hey did you notice Vegeta won’t shut the fuck up about the legend of the Super Saiyan?

Did you notice Goku is the main character?

Did you notice they kept telling you Freeza killed all the Saiyans out of fear?

Did you notice when Vegeta died he told Goku that Freeza feared the legend of the Super Saiyan and that Freeza must die by a Saiyan hand?

[Koitsukai]

Kurilin's third death was when Boo killed him during the Boo arc, not GT. For all the criticism you gave his death in GT, it's ironic that you indirectly admitted it was more memorable than his death in the Boo arc. There was nothing to really be felt from his death in GT because he had already died so many times that it was practically a meme. But it ended up having some relevance in the plot as it motivated No.18 to help Gokuu out against Super No.17 later on.

Anyway, none of the deaths in the series are well-written, so it's silly to single out GT here. For an example, Kurilin's first death came out of nowhere with no build-up whatsoever; he's completely fine one page, and dead on the next. The tonal shift the Daimaoh arc brought was completely random. The only reason Kurilin's second death is memorable is because it led to Gokuu turning Super Saiyan for the first time, which was random in and of itself; Gokuu was never one to get stronger from rage.

By the time Kurilin died for the third time, there was nothing to be felt as he was just a glorified background character and death already lost all meaning long ago; Boo's genocide of humanity was practically treated as a joke, and Boo killing Kurilin and co. on the lookout was predictable. All those background characters were useless, and just taking up space, so they had to go. At least Super No.17 killing Kurilin had more of an impact as it tied into the arc's final act.

Krilin's death in the Buu arc is "forgettable" because he dies alongside the entire human race shortly after. It’s not his death. It has nothing to do with him; they even die off-panel.

Julie expanded upon GT Krilin's death. The writing doesn’t give it any emotional continuity. 18’s lack of involvement later on isn’t a character choice, it’s a consequence of GT not knowing what to do with that moment beyond a single scene. She couldn't even be bothered to join the gang for the final arc, not even to fight Omega when even Chichi was there.

Krilin's first death works because it comes out of nowhere. That’s actually what death is about.

And calling Goku’s transformation random completely ignores the buildup. The Super Saiyan was already being set up as early as Vegeta’s arrival, and by the time Goku reaches Namek, the legend is fully established. The question was never if it would happen, but when and how.

Krilin’s death is simply the final drop, the breaking point after everything that came before: Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Vegeta, Dende, Piccolo, who for all intents and purposes was gone. It’s not random, it’s the payoff.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu destroys an entire private military? Boring.

Tenshinhan struggles with deprogramming himself from a toxic ideology that he was raised under? Actually interesting. Literally just do more of this for character and story arcs. Hell, it worked for Jiren in the anime, too!

[Kenji]

Gokuu destroys an entire private military? Boring.

Tenshinhan struggles with deprogramming himself from a toxic ideology that he was raised under? Actually interesting. Literally just do more of this for character and story arcs. Hell, it worked for Jiren in the anime, too!

Goku deprogramming himself from his instinctual toxic blood-lust and desire to fight would be a good idea worth exploring as well.
I'm sure I'm gonna get some man-nerds beating me down with "Goku is not a superhero" or "Dragon Ball is supposed to be unserious fun" though.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm sure I'm gonna get some man-nerds beating me down with "Goku is not a superhero" or "Dragon Ball is supposed to be unserious fun" though.

Or maybe they will just be normal people who happen to disagree with you? I never understood the need to name call people just because they happen to have a different opinion on something

[Kenji]

Or maybe they will just be normal people who happen to disagree with you? I never understood the need to name call people just because they happen to have a different opinion on something

Yeah, I apologize. Came off like a bitch there.
The point of that post was just, "Yeah, I know what Dragon Ball is, no need to insult my intelligence."
I would still like to see that, though. Given that Dragon Ball toyed with the same idea numerous times before (Cell Saga, GT, ToP)

[Zebra]

But Super Saiyan 1 was built-up, though?

Not really. The term "Super Saiyan" pops up midway through the Freeza arc and we learn nothing about it other than it being a really strong Saiyan that last appeared 1,000 years ago. It could've been a mere status/title for all we knew, but randomly it's a transformation that's triggered by rage despite Gokuu having never gotten stronger from his anger before.

Do you know what shocking and unexpected means?

Strawman. There's surprising, and then there's just being completely random and forced. Killing characters out of the blue isn't good writing. The Tenshinhan arc (and frankly, any of the previous arcs) could've devoted time to building up the impending disaster; allude to Daimaoh and his demon army's existence, and drop hints that some of Gokuu's friends would die without revealing who. Instead there's no allusion or foreshadowing at all; it all comes out of nowhere.

Hey did you notice Vegeta won’t shut the fuck up about the legend of the Super Saiyan?

When did he say anything about it being a transformation?

Did you notice Goku is the main character?

Why didn't he transform when Kurilin died the first time?

Why didn't he transform when he found Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Chiaotzu all dead in the Saiyan arc? The Dragon Balls were gone as far as he knew then, too, because Kami died along with Piccolo.

Hell, why didn't he ever get stronger from his anger before in the story? Why does the only character whose entire shtick is anger not transform (Gohan), but Gokuu does? Because the plot demanded it be the main character instead, going against logic.

Did you notice they kept telling you Freeza killed all the Saiyans out of fear?

Because he feared a rebellion of Saiyans. Then, it's retconned to be because he feared a Super Saiyan.

Did you notice when Vegeta died he told Goku that Freeza feared the legend of the Super Saiyan and that Freeza must die by a Saiyan hand?

I must've missed the part where he said it was a transformation (he didn't).

Krilin's death in the Buu arc is "forgettable" because he dies alongside the entire human race shortly after. It’s not his death. It has nothing to do with him; they even die off-panel.

Clearly, it does have to do with him considering he died during it. And it being off-panel is pretty irrelevant when it was shown in the anime, which I know most people here watched before reading the manga:
https://youtu.be/kE1HgS6Q5lo?si=O7BCV8KD1mwlW6OR

All things considered, it was a pretty memorable scene despite being anime-only. Not that it was well-written by any stretch, but it's not forgettable.

18’s lack of involvement later on isn’t a character choice, it’s a consequence of GT not knowing what to do with that moment beyond a single scene. She couldn't even be bothered to join the gang for the final arc, not even to fight Omega when even Chichi was there.

There was no reason to have No.18 show up to fight the One Star Dragon. She obviously would've just gotten beaten up, and we had more than enough fodder characters (Oob, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Vegeeta after he loses SS4) to be punching bags.

No.18 already had her little moment when she helped Gokuu take down Super No.17. Sure, it might've been nice if she got to beat one of the weaker Evil Dragons, but GT is Gokuu Time.

Another positive thing that can be said about Kurilin's death in GT is that it ultimately tied into him and Gokuu's final goodbye in the last episode, which was memorable. Sure, Gokuu could've still visited Kurilin without Kurilin having to die again, but it's more impactful if it's when Kurilin comes back to life after dying recently.

Krilin's first death works because it comes out of nowhere. That’s actually what death is about.

By that logic, they should've just killed off Gokuu out of the blue and there'd be no issue.

The Super Saiyan was already being set up as early as Vegeta’s arrival

It wasn't. The very first time it's brought up came after Zarbon beat Vegeeta, and from that point on, it's just one vague mention after another.

Krilin’s death is simply the final drop, the breaking point after everything that came before: Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Vegeta, Dende, Piccolo, who for all intents and purposes was gone.

You might have had a point if Gokuu was shown to have progressively gotten stronger from his anger over everyone else dying, or if anger was shown to be a source of power for him early on, but that's not what happened at all.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Yeah, I apologize. Came off like a bitch there.
The point of that post was just, "Yeah, I know what Dragon Ball is, no need to insult my intelligence."
I would still like to see that, though. Given that Dragon Ball toyed with the same idea numerous times before (Cell Saga, GT, ToP)

It's alright, I've been there lol it happens to the best of us

And yeah, honestly, as sad as it is to say, but now with Toriyama gone, it's the best chance to try and do something different with Dragon Ball, and I'd like to see that as well.
Unfortunately, as long as Iyoku has anything to do with it, I'm afraid that the nostalgia driven storytelling will keep going, and fans will make sure that it keeps going, but my hope is that one day we'll get something that can challenge our expectations and our notion of Dragon Ball, even just in the form of a spin-off, I'll take that

[JulieYBM]

I would like to see Gokuu radically change as a character. As the main character of an extended series, he isn't really likable. It's one thing if there's an intentional use for Gokuu to be unlikable as a way of getting across an active point and overall arc to the stories that he is featured in, but that is not the case. As a main character, the 'poison' that Toriyama continually tries to stress does not make him entertaining and is boring and uninspired.