How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[MasenkoHA]

Gokuu destroys an entire private military? Boring.

Tenshinhan struggles with deprogramming himself from a toxic ideology that he was raised under? Actually interesting. Literally just do more of this for character and story arcs. Hell, it worked for Jiren in the anime, too!

Byproduct of Toriyama being an artist not a writer. Toriyama is really good at drawing dynamic fight scenes and memorable character designs. He’s not really good at character writing. There’s a reason Koyama’s Burdock story is universally preferred over Burdock’s. Toriyama’s writing tends to be derivative (see Dragon Ball Minus being straight up Superman’s origin story with Burdock of Jor El) or going through the motions to get where he needs the story to go.

In Tenshinhan’s case Toriyama really didn’t seem to have much interest in in the character once he did his “asshole martial artist realizes his teaching was wrong and there’s a better way” plot and Ten really only exist to be a measuring stick for how strong Goku became after drinking Super God Water and then after training with God.

The anime even tries to do more by giving him an actual atonement arc in Daimao but even the anime staff gave up after that and accepted Ten’s fate as canon fodder


Conversely, there’s not a whole lot of meat to “Goku destroys evil military” but monkey boy absolutely tearing through these evil soldiers makes for a visually engaging read

[Mr Baggins]

Actually, a lot of characters died a lot in the Boo arc while waiting for Goku to save them, and it had no impact whatsoever.
Well, technically, waiting for Goten, Trunks and Gohan to save them, but Toriyama admitted he had already grown tired of the new generation idea shortly after beginning the story, so... "wait for Goten, Trunks and Gohan" was all just a red herring for "wait for Goku."

That's not even remotely what happened.

Not only were none of those characters waiting for Goku or even made aware he'd be brought back to life, Goku routinely failed to defeat Buu by himself all throughout the arc. Fusion accomplished nothing. Super Saiyan 3 accomplished nothing. It was actually Vegeta's suggestion, "let the people of Earth do their share of the work for once", that would ultimately win the day.

That's the story telling you what the actual solution is. This has the impact that it does (the big "fuck yeah, do it!" moment all of us felt as readers) specifically and expressly because of all those failed red herrings along the way; because Buu felt like an opponent that couldn't be stopped. Goku incorrectly surmised that it was up to the next generation alone to thwart this obstacle, but as was stated plainly by Vegeta, it's up to everyone to do their part – i.e. the theme of the arc.

You keep doing this thing where you're able to identify that something is happening, but then fall short of recognizing what that's supposed to facilitate narratively because you're either incapable or unwilling to go past reciting the basic plot. Once again, that is no fault of the writer or their work.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu destroys an entire private military? Boring.

Tenshinhan struggles with deprogramming himself from a toxic ideology that he was raised under? Actually interesting. Literally just do more of this for character and story arcs. Hell, it worked for Jiren in the anime, too!

Byproduct of Toriyama being an artist not a writer. Toriyama is really good at drawing dynamic fight scenes and memorable character designs. He’s not really good at character writing. There’s a reason Koyama’s Burdock story is universally preferred over Burdock’s. Toriyama’s writing tends to be derivative (see Dragon Ball Minus being straight up Superman’s origin story with Burdock of Jor El) or going through the motions to get where he needs the story to go.

In Tenshinhan’s case Toriyama really didn’t seem to have much interest in in the character once he did his “asshole martial artist realizes his teaching was wrong and there’s a better way” plot and Ten really only exist to be a measuring stick for how strong Goku became after drinking Super God Water and then after training with God.

The anime even tries to do more by giving him an actual atonement arc in Daimao but even the anime staff gave up after that and accepted Ten’s fate as canon fodder


Conversely, there’s not a whole lot of meat to “Goku destroys evil military” but monkey boy absolutely tearing through these evil soldiers makes for a visually engaging read

That's why I think that we don't hold Toriyama and his various editors' feet to fire enough. Toriyama and Dragon Ball don't exist in a vacuum and they can and should be challenged to improve as writers.

People complain about 'the anime' making changes or whatever, but the additions and decisions that you see in Dragon Ball, early Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super clearly come from a place of writers who think about what character and story material they have to work with and try to expand on those things to enrichen the series, like writers are trained to do. The restrictions from Toriyama himself, network and producer ideologies and any other Kool-Aid they might drink only ever serve to cut the legs off of a writer's ability to take a story further and that is something that I absolutely don't want to see writers and directors beholden to, whether Dragon Ball or not.

Gokuu can and should have more built onto him as a character. I'm not advocating for less ass-kicking, I'm advocating for more character development and challenges. That's my hope for future projects.

[Koitsukai]

There was no reason to have No.18 show up to fight the One Star Dragon. She obviously would've just gotten beaten up, and we had more than enough fodder characters (Oob, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Vegeeta after he loses SS4) to be punching bags.

No.18 already had her little moment when she helped Gokuu take down Super No.17. Sure, it might've been nice if she got to beat one of the weaker Evil Dragons, but GT is Gokuu Time.

Another positive thing that can be said about Kurilin's death in GT is that it ultimately tied into him and Gokuu's final goodbye in the last episode, which was memorable. Sure, Gokuu could've still visited Kurilin without Kurilin having to die again, but it's more impactful if it's when Kurilin comes back to life after dying recently.

Krilin's first death works because it comes out of nowhere. That’s actually what death is about.

By that logic, they should've just killed off Gokuu out of the blue and there'd be no issue.

The Super Saiyan was already being set up as early as Vegeta’s arrival

It wasn't. The very first time it's brought up came after Zarbon beat Vegeeta, and from that point on, it's just one vague mention after another.

Krilin’s death is simply the final drop, the breaking point after everything that came before: Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Vegeta, Dende, Piccolo, who for all intents and purposes was gone.

You might have had a point if Gokuu was shown to have progressively gotten stronger from his anger over everyone else dying, or if anger was shown to be a source of power for him early on, but that's not what happened at all.

- If she helped with Super 17, she could've helped with the unknown dragons who turned out to be mostly shit. She doesn't have to win either, she has to care, nothing more. Gohan doesn't even care about Krilin's death and he sure could've helped more than 18.

- I think there would've been an issue if the MC dies and then Krilin or some non-MC is the one seeking revenge.

- Yeah, I'm out. If we can't agree on the Super Saiyan Legend having been properly set up, then it's just a waste of time, it's false to say otherwise.
- You’re expecting buildup from something that’s clearly a breaking point. Anger is human, it doesn’t need buildup, just the right moment. That’s on you, not the story.

[Kenji]

That's not even remotely what happened.

Not only were none of those characters waiting for Goku or even made aware he'd be brought back to life, Goku routinely failed to defeat Buu by himself all throughout the arc.

- Yeah, I could've defeated Boo with SSJ3 if I went full-out, but I felt like it's up to the young ones to save the day for once.
- Yeah, I could have used SSJ3 against Vegeta, but (insert a million excuses about this massive retcon here)
- Yeah, we could've defeated Boo using the Potara, but we wanted to save everyone else first.
- Yeah, we could use the Potara now to defeat Boo again, but that's not the Saiyan Way™

Pick your poison.

Fusion accomplished nothing. Super Saiyan 3 accomplished nothing. It was actually Vegeta's suggestion, "let the people of Earth do their share of the work for once", that would ultimately win the day.

That's the story telling you what the actual solution is. This has the impact that it does (the big "fuck yeah, do it!" moment all of us felt as readers) specifically and expressly because of all those failed red herrings along the way; because Buu felt like an opponent that couldn't be stopped. Goku incorrectly surmised that it was up to the next generation alone to thwart this obstacle, but as was stated plainly by Vegeta, it's up to everyone to do their part – i.e. the theme of the arc.

I don't know where you're pulling this from, but for no moment whatsoever I felt like the theme of this arc was "everyone else has to do their part." Rather, the theme of the arc was that the new generation had to take over. That's what Toriyama by his own admission was fully intending to do before realizing shortly after starting that the new generation don't make for good protagonists, and decided to bring Goku back into the spotlight.

You know what the funniest part is? The arc ends with Goku pulling the "new generation" card with Oob again.

You keep doing this thing where you're able to identify that something is happening, but then fall short of recognizing what that's supposed to facilitate narratively because you're either incapable or unwilling to go past reciting the basic plot. Once again, that is no fault of the writer or their work.

Mansplaining and insulting someone else's intelligence to defend your favorite male writer because you're insecure and unable to admit he was a flawed creator, fun. Miss me with this pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama cratering any character who isn't Gokuu or Vegeta seems less like an issue with those characters—fictional characters that he writes—and more an issue with him as a writer.

"Gohan, Videl, Trunks and Goten aren't good protagonists."

GIRL!!! YOU ARE THE WRITING THE COMIC!!! ROFL

[VegettoEX]

You keep doing this thing where you're able to identify that something is happening, but then fall short of recognizing what that's supposed to facilitate narratively because you're either incapable or unwilling to go past reciting the basic plot. Once again, that is no fault of the writer or their work.

Mansplaining and insulting someone else's intelligence to defend your favorite male writer because you're insecure and unable to admit he was a flawed creator, fun.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but:

Why does it have to be "mansplaining" here? Why can't it just be a conversation between people? What does gender have to do with it? How do you even know?

I'm also curious about the how and why of who you choose to respond to. I don't actually mind, but it's curious I'm never on the list.

The one thing I'm taking away from a few people is that they seem to demand the story tell them something's going to happen ("foreshadow" it), or it's somehow "lesser". OK -- let's take it further. Do they have to tell you they're going to tell you? At what point can something just "happen" because that's how things happen (they happen)?

Everyone's real gosh darn snippy here! I'm trying not to be myself, but when I read through this all, I'm pretty exhausted!

[Kenji]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but:

Why does it have to be "mansplaining" here? Why can't it just be a conversation between people? What does gender have to do with it? How do you even know?

Apologize, just my own trauma due to past experiences with toxic gymbros talking me down about Dragon Ball.
I'll make an effort not to do that next time.

I'm also curious about the how and why of who you choose to respond to. I don't actually mind, but it's curious I'm never on the list.

If I feel like I have nothing to add to the debate, or I have no counterpoint to an argument, I just don't respond.

[Mr Baggins]

Pick your poison.

What poison? This here is moving the goalpost from what you said before about characters waiting around for Goku to just rephrasing what I've already said.

Not the flex you think it is. Until now I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is flagrantly arguing in bad faith.

I don't know where you're pulling this from, but for no moment whatsoever I felt like the theme of this arc was "everyone else has to do their part."

I'm pulling this from the story arc. As was made apparent by all the major players (and not just the next generation) having a major role in that arc from the beginning, or as was also made apparent by said arc utilizing red herrings with those characters almost constantly. Goku wanted to leave things to the next generation, but I think it's obvious from the start that he never had a complete picture – we knew that Goku could have wiped out Fat Buu if he wanted, and we knew that Goten and Trunks had an arrogance problem before they even started to participate.

There can be red herrings and instances of foreshadowing in equal measure, my guy. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Mansplaining and insulting someone else's intelligence to defend your favorite male writer because you're insecure and unable to admit he was a flawed creator, fun.

Man, I don't even know who you are. I won't remember you or think about you tomorrow. All I did was point out a recurrent pattern in this thread where it seems you're not wanting to engage sincerely with like 95% of the contributors here.

[Kenji]

Man, I don't even know who you are. I won't remember you or think about you tomorrow. All I did was point out a recurrent pattern in this thread where it seems you're not wanting to engage sincerely with 95% of the contributors here.

Fun thing is, that's exactly how it feels you're engaging with me.
We have interviews detailing what were Toriyama's plans for the arc, and we have him admitting he changed his mind about it after starting. Just like Julie said, that alone speaks volumes about his ability as a writer.

I'm not going to pretend that Gohan, Goten and Trunks getting killed midway through after being built up the entire arc as the ultimate salvation was anything resembling organic storytelling. Nor will I pretend this "everyone must do their part" theme that only ever came up at the tail end of the story and never touched on again was ever meant to be anything but a rushed last-minute addition.

Well, not unless you count GT.

[Mr Baggins]

The only interview in which I can recall anything like that was brought up was the one from Daizenshuu 2, where Toriyama talks about his original plan for Gohan to take the lead role around the Cell climax. Then he said it didn't pan out.

That does not mean he changed what he intended for the Buu arc halfway through the Buu arc. Toriyama went on record to state he preferred to draw contributions from trivial characters like Satan while writing that arc, which happened well before the kids were written out. That's an obvious approach to the story he was telling, and I don't much care for what you think is "pretending".

Also, EoZ was explicitly not about passing the torch. The dialogue outright says Goku had an ulterior motive.

[Kenji]

Absolutely everyone who worked with Toriyama described him as a "chaotic writer", he himself admitted he didn't like planning anything ahead beyond what he was working on that week. He himself didn't know who Trunks was after introducing him.

The Boo arc is just one of many examples of Toriyama wanting to tell a story, then quickly switching to another because he grew bored with the previous idea. And it's obvious, because the Boo arc builds things up only to switch gears many, many, many times.

At the time Son Gohan was turning into the main character, wasn’t he?
Toriyama:
Yeah! I figured Goku was getting old, and it was time to switch over to the next generation.

Toyotarō:
That’s what Goku himself said in the Majin Boo arc.

Toriyama:
But drawing Gohan’s daily life made me gradually realize he likes studying more than fighting (laughs). Later on he even lost his dōgi (laughs).

Toyotarō:
Now he’s fulfilled his childhood dream and become a fine scholar.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... b-version/

None of this "everyone must do their parts" theme was planned or built up from the very beginning. It came abruptly at the very end of the arc. The "new generation" stuff was planned from the very beginning and built up throughout the arc, it wasn't a red herring, or at least, was not planned to be one. It was planned to be the end-game.

The end of the Boo arc that we got instead has no thematic coherence, it's just bad writing from someone who grew bored with his story. And of course, it's another "wait for Goku" moment, after everyone else was done failing and/or getting killed. Vegeta, Mr. Satan and the world definitely were instrumental, but ultimately, it was still this trope at play.

[PhantomSaiyan]

That interview also stated that Toriyama came up with Vegeta and Bulma being Trunks' parents AFTER he had already turned Super Saiyan and killed Freeza, so that really shows how little planning there was, improvisation was the name of the game

[Mr Baggins]

All that manages to show was that Toriyama often wrote by the seat of his pants (nobody said otherwise) and that Toriyama dropped the high school storyline for Gohan prior to the Buu arc proper getting kicked off (nobody said otherwise).

Not a single person here is disputing that Toriyama didn't meticulously plan out every detail of a particular story arc. It's certainly no secret that he was a very skilled improviser. That doesn't at all mean that his arc endings can't nonetheless cohere with the spirit of what he wrote in the lead-up to that ending. Toriyama employed buildup in his writing all the time, and has also mentioned intentionally using red herrings as devices to throw people off. None of this information is new.

You are, once again, cherrypicking isolated plot events to support your argument about a holistic narrative that literally everyone and their grandma is imploring you to think about more holistically. I can't really help you beyond this juncture.

[Kenji]

You are, once again, cherrypicking isolated plot events to support your argument about a holistic narrative that literally everyone and their grandma is imploring you to think about more holistically. I can't really help you beyond this juncture.

We simply have different opinions.
You believe the end of the Boo arc was actually planned that way.
Something I don't believe because of Toriyama's well-documented erratic writing and the fact the arc never once built up towards that.

Do give me examples: Where in the Boo arc before the very tail-end of it is there support for the notion its theme was always all about the world having to fix their shit themselves, when it suddenly and abruptly becomes relevant?

[MasenkoHA]

We have interviews detailing what were Toriyama's plans for the arc, and we have him admitting he changed his mind about it after starting. Just like Julie said, that alone speaks volumes about his ability as a writer.

But not really. Writers change their minds while working on a story all the time.

To be clear I don’t disagree with the assessment that Toriyama isn’t a very good writer, I disagree with the argument that’s he not a good writer because he changes his plans midway based on how the story unfolds or earlier “he’s not a good writer because he has tools he relies on”

That interview also stated that Toriyama came up with Vegeta and Bulma being Trunks' parents AFTER he had already turned Super Saiyan and killed Freeza, so that really shows how little planning there was, improvisation was the name of the game

This also just reeks of Toriyama forgetting what happened back when he was writing the story like when he claimed he forgot about Lunch, even though her being written out was explained in the story.

This dude in a CAPSULE CORP crop top jacket turns Supe Saiyan. Short of Goku fucking Bulma behind Chi Chi’s back there is very little room for doubt who Future Boy’s parents are

[Kenji]

But not really. Writers change their minds while working on a story all the time.

To be clear I don’t disagree with the assessment that Toriyama isn’t a very good writer, I disagree with the argument that’s he not a good writer because he changes his plans midway based on how the story unfolds or earlier “he’s not a good writer because he has tools he relies on”

We are talking about the Boo arc specifically.

Toriyama can change his mind on Goku being 12 and not 14, or him being an adult rather than a comic-book child, or him being an alien rather than a were-monkey, that's all fine and dandy and makes no difference in the long-run, and actually gives his character and the Saiyan arc more emotional depth.

My problem is how the story goes from "We must pass the torch to the new generation- Never mind, the new generation sucks, here's Goku again!" I can't find that development anything less than baffling. It's "Sailor Venus killing Beryl" all over again lol

[Mr Baggins]

You believe the end of the Boo arc was actually planned that way.

No. Go back and re-read what I actually said in the post you're quoting.

Nobody knows when exactly Toriyama had the idea to use Genkidama during the climax, but it's a good payoff for the tools he'd made use of up until that point. That's all that matters.

Do give me examples: Where in the Boo arc before the very tail-end of it is there support for the notion its theme was always all about the world having to fix their shit themselves, when it suddenly and abruptly becomes relevant?

Ignoring that I've already given you an example with Satan, the arc as a whole speaks for itself. The act with the fusion dance and Gotenks is the only part that even focuses on "the next generation", while every character before and after that point – Vegeta, Satan, Mr. Buu, Piccolo, Goku, etc. – brought major contributions of their own to the story. This is all well in line with its ending.

[Kenji]

Ignoring that I've already given you an example with Satan, the arc as a whole speaks for itself.

It... really doesn't.

The act with the fusion dance and Gotenks is the only part that even focuses on "the next generation", while every character before and after that point – Vegeta, Satan, Mr. Buu, Piccolo, Goku, etc. – brought major contributions of their own to the story.

Okay, let's see:

Gohan: His major contributions were his high school shenanigans, his romance with Videl and the Great Saiyaman stuff. All of which get dropped because Toriyama grew bored with the idea. From the very start of the arc, he gets constantly insulted by other characters, mostly Vegeta, for not keeping up with his training, which should have been planned to be a character arc at some point. Then Majin Boo is released, he gets his ass kicked, spends most of his time "training" (read: sidelined) on Kaioshin's planet, only to return in the end and... get his ass kicked again. Turns out the training amounted to nothing and he really just wanted to be a scholar all along and not a superhero. (???)

Vegeta: He gets a mid-life crisis and becomes ashamed of his own actions. Screws everything up again, and decides to do a sacrifice to atone for his sins, which doesn't stick. It's up to the other characters to gather the Dragon Balls and fix his shit, which doesn't last for long because of Piccolo's and Majin Boo's actions. After being resurrected and screwing everything up for the millionth time, and destroying the Potara twice, which would hand him and Goku an easy win over Majin Boo because he really just wants to fight and not save the world, after all. Then, after getting his and Goku's asses kicked, he suddenly and out of nowhere decides that humanity must fix their shit themselves (???)

Goku and Piccolo: Spend the entire arc repeating "the new generation must take over," take on themselves to train Goten and Trunks, which ultimately ends up failing. Then Goku banks on Gohan to defeat Majin Boo, which ends up failing too. Then he banks on saving Gohan, Goten and Trunks, so they can kill Majin Boo, fails again and they get killed. Piccolo suggests to Majin Boo to kill humanity because they can always use the Dragon Balls to resurrect everybody in the end. Then Majin Boo does exactly that and kills everyone. Then Piccolo dies. Then Goku refuses to use the Potara with Vegeta for no reason because he really just wants to fight Majin Boo and not save the world, after all. Then, after getting his ass kicked, now he's going along with Vegeta with humanity must fix their shit themselves (???)

That's even barring the fact that humanity in this situation did nothing wrong, Majin Boo was released because of Vegeta's mid-life crisis and Goku's refusal to stop him, and yet they're dumping the responsibility on everyone else.

The only thing that actually paid off in the end was Majin Boo and Mr. Satan's relationship.
Everything else was a series of irrelevant events stitched together. Which, again, is well-documented to be Toriyama's Modus Operandi.

This was, for all intents and purposes, not a story about how humanity must bear responsibility for saving the world.
And if it is one, it's a very horribly written one.

[Mr Baggins]

Um, okay.

Let's just forget about Gohan's arc coming full circle with his untapped potential (established since his introduction in the manga) while learning to strike that delicate balance between being a scholar and fighter that defends his friends, or Piccolo helping to support others instead of always fighting from the front lines, or Vegeta grappling with his limits and character flaws from Majin Vegeta all the way to Pure Buu, or Goku coming to intentionally rely on others when the situation calls for it, or how virtually all of this ties into everyone having their own part to play within a greater collective while actively pushing the story forward and progressing as characters.

No, all that matters is "plot convenience" and the "wins" these guys get as fighters. Which actually just takes us back to what I originally said from the start ITT.

Absolute insane levels of dishonesty and circularity here. Can't say I'm interested in continuing any of this, to be honest.