How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Zebra]

- If she helped with Super 17, she could've helped with the unknown dragons who turned out to be mostly shit.

No one else helped Gokuu out against them, except for Pan. No.18 isn't any more deserving of spotlight than Gohan, Goten, Vegeeta, Trunks, and Oob are here.

She helped kill her own brother after seeing him murder her husband in front of her daughter. It makes sense that she'd want to rest. To say that she didn't "care" about Kurilin just because she didn't participate in the final arc is downright false; she cried after seeing him die and she helped avenge his death. It's not necessary to turn her into another punching bag later afterwards.

She doesn't have to win either, she has to care, nothing more. Gohan doesn't even care about Krilin's death and he sure could've helped more than 18.

Gohan isn't close to Kurilin at this point, so why would you expect him to? As far as Gohan knew, they could just revive him with the Dragon Balls.

- I think there would've been an issue if the MC dies and then Krilin or some non-MC is the one seeking revenge.

But as you said, characters randomly dying is OK because that's how death is like in real life. Now you're backpedaling when it's the main character.

- Yeah, I'm out. If we can't agree on the Super Saiyan Legend having been properly set up, then it's just a waste of time, it's false to say otherwise.

It wasn't properly set up at all. Just a lazy deus ex machina to sell toys.

Even Herms spoke about how it wasn't built up as a transformation in one of his threads: viewtopic.php?t=18583

Spoiler:

Before Goku’s actual transformation, what we are told is that a Super Saiyan:

---Is a legendary figure
---Appears once every thousand years.
---Is the mightiest warrior in the universe
---Overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome
---Loves blood and battle
---Acts ruthlessly
---Is the one thing Freeza fears

I suppose that last point is more about Freeza’s reaction to the legend than it is part of the legend itself, but it gets repeated often enough and is so central to the plot that I thought it worth including. Plus, the Episode of Bardock offers an origin of the legend that primarily focuses on explaining how Freeza came to know of it.

The subject not touched on at any point is what a Super Saiyan actually looks like, and this is one of the key ways that the various bits of hype leading up to the Super Saiyan differ from how it’s ultimately presented in the series. A recurring theme during the later Namek arc is people wondering whether someone has become a Super Saiyan. Not whether they might become one, or are close to becoming one (though we do get a fair bit of that too), but whether or not they are actually at that very moment a Super Saiyan. Vegeta and Ginyu both assume that Goku has become a Super Saiyan but change their minds when they see him act mercifully (Vegeta even does this twice, first with Recoom and then in the Freeza fight), and Vegeta for a while assumes that he himself has finally become a Super Saiyan, before Freeza persuades him otherwise. We ultimately see that becoming a Super Saiyan is accompanied by several fairly unmistakable visual changes: upturned golden hair, green eyes, and a glowing aura. However, none of these things are even hinted at in the legend, at least not in the manga (the anime’s a bit different, but we’ll get to that). Everyone just assumes that a Super Saiyan will be an extraordinarily powerful Saiyan, but not visually distinct from a regular Saiyan. When Freeza finally sees Goku transform into a Super Saiyan, he doesn’t understand what has happened, and needs a good deal of convincing before he finally admits that Goku is indeed a Super Saiyan. This can partially be put down to stubbornness and denial, but Freeza seems genuinely puzzled at Goku’s transformation.

Going along with that, while Super Saiyan and its variants are ultimately treated as temporarily transformations (it’s considered a difficult feat when Goku and Gohan try to stay Super Saiyans around the clock), that idea is also not present early on. Again, while Freeza was rather obsessed with the idea of Super Saiyans, when he finally sees Goku transform it completely flies over his head. He wonders what this change could possibly be, saying that Saiyans are only supposed to transform into Oozaru. The idea of Super Saiyan as a sudden transformation or change seems completely foreign to him. On the other hand, while Super Saiyan isn’t seen as a transformation, it’s still treated as something a Saiyan becomes rather than something they’re born as. Freeza worries about Saiyans becoming Super Saiyans, while Vegeta believed that he alone had the potential to become one. Both Vegeta and Ginyu note that Goku has apparently failed to completely become Super Saiyan. So the idea at this stage seems to be that Super Saiyan is something that must be achieved, but which isn’t a sudden transformation or marked by visual change. It also sounds like Vegeta et al envision Super Saiyan as a permanent change, something reached once and for all time.

Toriyama clearly didn't intend for it to be a transformation at first; just a mere status/title.

- You’re expecting buildup from something that’s clearly a breaking point. Anger is human, it doesn’t need buildup, just the right moment.

Humans don't magically become 50x stronger and turn blonde just because they're angry.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Do you truly, honestly think, that Toryama planted the seeds of Vegeta and Bulma being a thing, assimilated Vegeta into Earth, and then rolled out a Super Saiyan from the future that couldn't possibly be the son of Goku and wearing the one piece of clothing most likely to be associated with Bulma within a chapter of each other and they're just completely unrelated? What's more likely that, or guys in their 70s not entirely remembering something from 35 years ago?

I'm not saying he had NO idea Vegeta was an option.
But he clearly was considering multiple options, and ended up with the one that made the most sense, but that doesn't mean that there were no other options in his mind.
Like Julie said, it's likely that he simply only revealed it once he committed to one of the ideas floating in his head.

You can use their age against them, but even when your memory starts failing you, it doesn't create completely new absurd memories with no baiss in reality, at most it eliminates existing memories or muddies the details
Even in the event that someone there made it up, do you really find it likely that they ALL misremembered?

[jjgp1112]

Do you truly, honestly think, that Toryama planted the seeds of Vegeta and Bulma being a thing, assimilated Vegeta into Earth, and then rolled out a Super Saiyan from the future that couldn't possibly be the son of Goku and wearing the one piece of clothing most likely to be associated with Bulma within a chapter of each other and they're just completely unrelated? What's more likely that, or guys in their 70s not entirely remembering something from 35 years ago?

I'm not saying he had NO idea Vegeta was an option.
But he clearly was considering multiple options, and ended up with the one that made the most sense, but that doesn't mean that there were no other options in his mind.
Like Julie said, it's likely that he simply only revealed it once he committed to one of the ideas floating in his head.

You can use their age against them all you want, but even when your memory starts failing you, it doesn't create completely new absurd memorie, at most it eliminates existing memories.
They clearly remember being shocked at Trunks' parents and how sudden the reveal was, you don't just make up shit like that in your head.
Even in the event that someone there made it up, do you really find it likely that they ALL misremembered?

I didn't say they made up a new memory; it's very possible that they mixed up shit that happen design process with the actual manga itself; or as Julie said, Toriyama was just bullshitting/dragging his feet them until he actually put the explanation to paper.

Like forget age, people mix up details of stuff that they were involved with 20+ years ago all the time lmao.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I didn't say they made up a new memory; it's very possible that they mixed up details for the design process with the actual manga itself; or as Julie said, Toriyama was just bullshitting/dragging his feet them until he actually put the explanation to paper.

Still, hard to believe they would all misremember it, with no one calling it out.
Like I've said, I subscribe to Julie's theory that he only told them last moment when he committed, but I wouldn't call it bullshitting, I think he genuinely had more than one idea in mind, and ended up choosing the one that made the most sense when he sat down and drew the chapter

[MasenkoHA]

I I will never fail to be impressed at how many people here think they know Toriyama better than the people who worked with him. Any time his editors or friends come out and say something about him, people that ACTUALLY knew him and worked with him, here comes the audience, so sure of itself, denying their claims. Pretty funny how this keeps happening.

I guess you guys know better than the people that were actually there with him, next time I want to know something about Toriyama, I'll just ask you guys lol

Nobody is claiming to know Toriyama better than the people who worked with him. But we are pointing out the obvious (well should be obvious) fact that there’s very little room for doubt who Trunks parents were.

And again memories are not infallible and people can and will play up things for the media. It’s not that big of a stretch Toriyama’s editors misremembered details.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Nobody is claiming to know Toriyama better than the people who worked with him. But we are pointing out the obvious (well should be obvious) fact that there’s very little room for doubt who Trunks parents were.

And again memories are not infallible and people can and will play up things for the media. It’s not that big of a stretch Toriyama’s editors misremembered details.

There is only no room for doubt in hindsight, but there can absolutely be scenarios in which he has different parents, I mentioned multiple but you refused to engage with any of that pretendig like you didn't see...

It's not an insane high number of scenarios, but let's not act like it's impossible for him to have different parents, this is a fictional story for crying out loud, you can write anything. He could even be a descendant SEVERAL generations into the future for all we knew, the only limit is imagination.

[Mr Baggins]

He doesn't gain anything as a character; or rather, what he did gain if you wanted to stretch the narrative is immediately undermined by his complete and utter failure and ejection from the narrative thereafter, and from a purely on-the-page view of things he seeminfly just dicked off and stopped training afterwards, the exact thing the story was fingerwagging him for at every possible opportunity prior to the Z-Sword.

I don't think that's true at all. The original manga never implies that he's rusty again just because he became a scholar; Super leans into it a lot, but I'm not analyzing Super in this context.

Also, passing the torch was already done with Cell. I much prefer this instead being a diversion that ultimately led to everyone getting involved in Buu's defeat, rather than just the kids.

[jjgp1112]

He doesn't gain anything as a character; or rather, what he did gain if you wanted to stretch the narrative is immediately undermined by his complete and utter failure and ejection from the narrative thereafter, and from a purely on-the-page view of things he seeminfly just dicked off and stopped training afterwards, the exact thing the story was fingerwagging him for at every possible opportunity prior to the Z-Sword.

I don't think that's true at all. The original manga never implies that he's rusty again just because he became a scholar; Super leans into it a lot, but I'm not analyzing Super in this context.

Also, passing the torch was already done with Cell. I much prefer this instead being a diversion that ultimately led to everyone getting involved in Buu's defeat, rather than just the kids.

"Everyone got involved" is a massive stretch. They got wished back and raised their hands in the air. They contributed as much to Kid Buu's defeat as Master Roshi's 1000 year old turtle.

[Mr Baggins]

It's not a "massive stretch", it's explicitly what happened.

I don't care about numbers and power levels, mind you. That's not even what that scene was meant to convey thematically, as was specifically laid out by the dialogue.

[jjgp1112]

It's not a "massive stretch", it's explicitly what happened.

I don't care about numbers and power levels, mind you. That's not even what that scene was meant to convey, as was specifically laid out by the dialogue.

But...they don'y really do anything that in any way adequately resolved the bazillion chapters of setup they were given. Even being lumped in at all with the ordinary Earthlings who have to do things for themselves is such a slap in the face to the characters that the story arc established. It's so beneath them I'm shocked you're even making that a defense. Crippled Tien as a hostage made more narrative contribution to the end of the King Piccolo arc than the Saiyasperms did with Kid Buu.

Like, the thing about a torch is, when you're handed it to it, you're supposed to KEEP IT. Not drop it on your foot and set yourself on fire after one lap. Gohan's moment in the Cell Games - or rather, the overarching narrative of the Cell Games' conclusion feels a lot less meaningful when he couldn't even measure up to the being that made Goku comfortable enough to stay dead in his very next go around, and then that's the end of his chapter and he never gets any redemption or even referendum of. That's why the Buu saga tends to get compared to wrestling a lot, because it's the anime equivalent of a guy winning the world title at WrestleMania with everything up to an including the kitchen sink thrown out to establish him as THE guy and the new face to carry WWE and the fake sport forward...and then he loses his first title defense the next month and is back to Intercontinental title duty thereafter. They Crow Sting'd the man.

It's not about whether Gohan won or not, it's that his story is an incomplete essay that still got turned in anyway.

[JulieYBM]

I think the major issue is that Gohan et al are just not framed as protagonists. This isn't the culmination of their development, it's just them being completely shoved aside. This isn't the likable kid from the Saiyan and Namek arcs that felt like we were following growing up, this is just a side character who we're not meant to be invested in at all.

Gohan didn't die in the Majin Buu arc, he died during the last part of the Namek arc.

[Mr Baggins]

It's so beneath them I'm shocked you're even making that a defense.

Frankly, I'm more surprised you're shocked that I would say it. I've always maintained principally that the characters in any story are merely vehicles for that story's themes. There's no "unfairness" here; they don't exist in real life, man. The power levels can't hurt us. If Toriyama wants to say that Gohan and the runts contributed by manifesting and contributing their genki to the Genkidama, that's totally fine with me. I dig the message behind it, at least, and I particularly dig some of the cameos from older story arcs.

Separately, you seem to be arguing that it detracts from what the Cell arc established with its own instance of passing the torch. That's fair. I don't have an issue with it because A) Toriyama is no stranger to completely breaking pre-established conventions and rules between story arcs, B) I like that about his writing, and C) I often prefer to analyze these arcs in isolation in addition to what they bring to the whole shebang that is the 1984-1995 run, but I understand your point.

The Buu arc could very well be walking back the passing of the torch, although I think the intent regardless was to revisit Goku and co. as a whole group and have them all contribute in some way to close the book on the series. We obviously differ on the execution of that, but it is what it is.

[jjgp1112]

It's so beneath them I'm shocked you're even making that a defense.

Frankly, I'm more surprised you're shocked that I would say it. I've always maintained principally that the characters in any story are merely vehicles for that story's themes. There's no "unfairness" here; they don't exist in real life, man.

I mean, DUH. I've probably expressed that thought 8 million times on this forum. Of course it's not real life and it's random cruelty; that's the entire reason I think the writing is poor in the first place this is a story. This is a story that is subject to wasting it's audience, it's author, and even it's own self's time if to goes to great pains to setup a storyline and then abruptly cuts it short with no resolution even a centimeter's worth the time that was put in. It's narrative blue balls.

Gohan defeated Cell, and then the previous main character decided he's going to stay dead because he deems him not just a worthy successor, but a better one. The very next time we see him is preceded by a panel that flat out declares him as the new main character. What does that mean? That whatever the conclusion of this character's storyline, better success or failure, had better damn well measure up to the narrative stakes it's given. And if it's a punchline, it had damn better well be a good one.

Toriyama makes Gohan the Main character, establishes a compelling character flaw for him to overcome as growing pains, applies the same narrative crutch to him that he used with his previous main character for the preceeding seven years of publication, and even went as far as dressing him in that character's clothes. The previous MC basically gets the role Piccolo had the last few arcs, guy to fill in time and bow out once he's literally outlived his usefulness.

What follows after that? Either a victory that fulfills the setup, or a failure that has massive consequences both on the story and the character. Like, even Piccolo in the Frieza saga, a guy that was merely presented as a stop gap while Goku heals up, is at the very least given the chance to say, "Goddamn these guys are way stronger than me" after his power-up was swatted down. Vegeta at least got to stand in the rain and mope while being criticized for his antics.

Gohan on the other hand? Ceases to exist as a character after being absorbed. The person who we were led to believe as main character could be completely removed from the conclusion of the story that began with him taking up the mantle and given growing pains to overcome, and it wouldn't change things one iota. Nothing about his failure has any impact. No comment from Goku like, "Damn, guess Gohan wasn't who I thought he was." No chance for Gohan to either try to redeem himself or have a moment to reflect n how he fucked up. Nothing. It might make a good Norm McDonald bit, I guess.

The issue isn't about fair or unfair, it's about co

[Kid Buu]

I think the major issue is that Gohan et al are just not framed as protagonists. This isn't the culmination of their development, it's just them being completely shoved aside. This isn't the likable kid from the Saiyan and Namek arcs that felt like we were following growing up, this is just a side character who we're not meant to be invested in at all.

Gohan didn't die in the Majin Buu arc, he died during the last part of the Namek arc.

Yeah I agree. I loved Gohan in the Saiyan and the Freeza arc, but he didn't do anything in the Android Saga yet gets thrown to be the protagonist of the arc at the end. Saiyaman was a nice rebuild of his character, but then the narrative goes back to fighting and decided Gohan doesn't fit it at all.

[JulieYBM]

I think the major issue is that Gohan et al are just not framed as protagonists. This isn't the culmination of their development, it's just them being completely shoved aside. This isn't the likable kid from the Saiyan and Namek arcs that felt like we were following growing up, this is just a side character who we're not meant to be invested in at all.

Gohan didn't die in the Majin Buu arc, he died during the last part of the Namek arc.

Yeah I agree. I loved Gohan in the Saiyan and the Freeza arc, but he didn't do anything in the Android Saga yet gets thrown to be the protagonist of the arc at the end. Saiyaman was a nice rebuild of his character, but then the narrative goes back to fighting and decided Gohan doesn't fit it at all.

Yeah, pretty much. The Artificial Humans arc really does just fumbles the ball with Gohan. There's no throughline that leads up to that big shift to having him fight Cell. Gohan doesn't feel like he's having a character arc reaching a new level, because he's been completely forgotten by the story this entire time. Shocking twists aren't shocking and fun if you don't do the work to make up for the self-indulgence.

[MasenkoHA]

It's not about whether Gohan won or not, it's that his story is an incomplete essay that still got turned in anyway.

Meh I’d say it’s more like an essay that was finished then the student asked for the essay back to expand on it but then gave up halfway through the second go around.

Gohan’s character arc in the Saiyan/Namek arc, even though he mostly existed in service to Piccolo’s character, was fine. He got over his fear of fighting to go back with Kuririn to help his dad fight Vegeta and he decided to forgo his studies to go to Namek to help bring Piccolo back. He learned “duty comes before studies” or whatever and only goes back to being a nerd after the universe has been saved from Freeza and everyone has been wished back to life and things are at peace again. He has no qualms with giving the books a break again when he needs to train with his dad and Uncle Piccolo to prepare for the Androids. But then when Toriyama decided to make Gohan the new lead he decided the best way to go about this was…have Gohan relearn the same lesson only now with a ginger Android he hasn’t said two words to in place of Piccolo. And now all of sudden Gohan’s story is about stepping up and becoming his father’s successor. He then fucks that up and gets curbed stomped by Boo and steps aside to let his dad handle things so his becoming a scholar at the end of the manga feels more like a failure instead of a logical conclusion for the character. Couldn’t cut it as a warrior became a poindexter instead

[Kid Buu]

He then fucks that up and gets curbed stomped by Boo and steps aside to let his dad handle things so his becoming a scholar at the end of the manga feels more like a failure instead of a logical conclusion for the character. Couldn’t cut it as a warrior became a poindexter instead

Honestly though Gohan getting a free power up to make him the strongest character in the series, then calls Super Buu a retard, only for Super Buu to outmaneuver him and defeat Gohan, is peak Toriyama trolling.

[Kenji]

Yeah, pretty much. The Artificial Humans arc really does just fumbles the ball with Gohan. There's no throughline that leads up to that big shift to having him fight Cell. Gohan doesn't feel like he's having a character arc reaching a new level, because he's been completely forgotten by the story this entire time. Shocking twists aren't shocking and fun if you don't do the work to make up for the self-indulgence.

It always worked for me given that he was introduced with having limitless potential that if used correctly would be able to surpass his father. Goku says exactly that before he begins training Gohan in the Cell Saga. Was more of a series-wide build up than an arc build up.

Though I agree the execution of it with a character he had a passing line of dialogue with was rather ehhhh.
The undoing of it the next arc was even worse.

[JulieYBM]

He then fucks that up and gets curbed stomped by Boo and steps aside to let his dad handle things so his becoming a scholar at the end of the manga feels more like a failure instead of a logical conclusion for the character. Couldn’t cut it as a warrior became a poindexter instead

Honestly though Gohan getting a free power up to make him the strongest character in the series, then calls Super Buu a retard, only for Super Buu to outmaneuver him and defeat Gohan, is peak Toriyama trolling.

It really beckons the question of why Toriyama feels a need to abandon a coherent character arc and writing just to be combative with his audience and with the concept of good writing in general. Like, I get sleeping for six hours a day for fifteen years is going to fuck you up, but damn girl, just quit. Editor Takeda was far too lenient with Toriyama and should have been better about convincing him to do better.

Yeah, pretty much. The Artificial Humans arc really does just fumbles the ball with Gohan. There's no throughline that leads up to that big shift to having him fight Cell. Gohan doesn't feel like he's having a character arc reaching a new level, because he's been completely forgotten by the story this entire time. Shocking twists aren't shocking and fun if you don't do the work to make up for the self-indulgence.

It always worked for me given that he was introduced with having limitless potential that if used correctly would be able to surpass his father. Goku says exactly that before he begins training Gohan in the Cell Saga. Was more of a series-wide build up than an arc build up.

The pickle there is that there's too great a disconnect between the two. I get wanting to loop back around to the beginning for Gohan, but the entire thing comes across as a wholly divorced for the rest of the art where not only was Gohan absent and having no real character arc, but the focus of the arc had been pretty much entirely on Trunks, Piccolo and Vegeta. Trunks' character arc being such a throwaway, tacked on epilogue despite being the initiating thrust of the whole Artificial Humans ordeal leaves the soul wanting.

[Kid Buu]

I get the frustation on Gohan losing, but on the other hand, I do like how the Kid Buu fight leads to Vegeta and Mr. Satan's arc getting completed.