Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Whether resurrection implies a zenkai boost or not, is still in the air.
Logically, it shouldn't because the body is not recovering from near death but from death itself... or perhaps logic indicates it should, depending on the injuries.
For instance, Goku's body was not recovering from anything when Ro Kaio Shin gives him his life, while Vegeta had a hole in his chest on Namek. So Goku shouldn't get a zenkai, Vegeta should, but it is still a gray area.
Since it was never mentioned at all in the show, I wouldn't put any stock on what a guide written by NOT Toriyama says. We could argue all day long if it should or shouldn't, and nobody would be right or wrong.

About Goku getting his powers back while throwing the Genki Dama vs Buu, that is all there is to it: getting back to full power. Goku was not near death at all, he was only depleted, exhausted, but not beaten up, so his saiyan biology should not be providing any boosts.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was the Dragon Books who said that, which I believe are little booklets that accompany a certain DVD release (Dragon Boxes? I'm not into the physical media side of things).

In this specific entry it's pretty obvious whoever wrote that is just making stuff up. Here's the bit:

Spoiler:

Japanese version (Just in case anyone wonders if this is from Toei or FUNI)

Spoiler:

It really comes out of nowhere and mentions something that didn't even happen (Vegeta being "revived"). Saying Goku got a power up from being revived is even worse because I'm sure the guidebook had a perfect chance to say that, but chose to mention his training in the Afterlife instead.

Not to mention that's not even how Zenkais work. They're not being healed from near death, and aside from Goku Black Zenkais haven't been a thing since Namek.

[QuakingStar]

It was the Dragon Books who said that, which I believe are little booklets that accompany a certain DVD release (Dragon Boxes? I'm not into the physical media side of things).

In this specific entry it's pretty obvious whoever wrote that is just making stuff up. Here's the bit:

Spoiler:

Japanese version (Just in case anyone wonders if this is from Toei or FUNI)

Spoiler:

It really comes out of nowhere and mentions something that didn't even happen (Vegeta being "revived"). Saying Goku got a power up from being revived is even worse because I'm sure the guidebook had a perfect chance to say that, but chose to mention his training in the Afterlife instead.

Not to mention that's not even how Zenkais work. They're not being healed from near death, and aside from Goku Black Zenkais haven't been a thing since Namek.

Nope, Vegeta had Krillin blast him specifically to put him near death so Dende could heal him and make him stronger. Goku on the space-ship got injured badly and when healed became stronger. Goku after Ginyu took his body was injured badly and was healed and became stronger. The only place saying the "Zenkai"'s were minimal or non-existent for them anymore was the Goku Black arc in the manga and FT pointed it out. Goku Black was beaten badly by Vegeta and when healed he got two Zenkais. Not really explained how he was still getting them, but I'd wager it was because Zamasu God Ki rejuvenating Goku's body or something.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Goku Black getting stronger, I've always taken it that having Zamasu's soul in Goku's body essentially "reset" his potential, even if he started off with Zamasu's level of Ki control to begin with, due to basically becoming an entirely new being.

Goku's body may have reached its peak at first, but Zamasu in Goku's body hadn't and thus had room to develop further.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The new DBS: Beerus teaser shows Goku fighting Beerus in space as a SSJ. Apparently they're really not going away with the god absorption thing...

[Koitsukai]

Let's say we swap the power gap between Z and DBS Broly.
If we compare the power gap between DBS Broly and Goku and Vegeta to the one between Z Broly and Goku and Vegeta, which Broly has the bigger advantage in terms of portrayal?

If DBS Broly had the same kind of gap that Z Broly had, how strong would his forms feel compared to other characters? Would he be around Toppo, Hit, Manga Kefla, or way above that, like Moro73 or Granolah?
And the other way around, if Z Broly had the power gap of his DBS version, who would he compare to? Would he feel as strong as Buu, Vegito, or not even close? or way above that?

I'm not asking who's stronger, that's obvious. I'm asking which version of Broly was written to feel more overwhelming compared to Goku and Vegeta.

What I mean is: if we extrapolate the type of advantage each one has and place them in the other setting, how strong would they feel relative to that cast, without just defaulting to DBS Broly one-shotting everyone in Z?
Am I making any sense? lol

[Noah]

The new DBS: Beerus teaser shows Goku fighting Beerus in space as a SSJ. Apparently they're really not going away with the god absorption thing...

Wasn't that something from the movie only?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Let's say we swap the power gap between Z and DBS Broly.
If we compare the power gap between DBS Broly and Goku and Vegeta to the one between Z Broly and Goku and Vegeta, which Broly has the bigger advantage in terms of portrayal?

If DBS Broly had the same kind of gap that Z Broly had, how strong would his forms feel compared to other characters? Would he be around Toppo, Hit, Manga Kefla, or way above that, like Moro73 or Granolah?
And the other way around, if Z Broly had the power gap of his DBS version, who would he compare to? Would he feel as strong as Buu, Vegito, or not even close? or way above that?

I'm not asking who's stronger, that's obvious. I'm asking which version of Broly was written to feel more overwhelming compared to Goku and Vegeta.

What I mean is: if we extrapolate the type of advantage each one has and place them in the other setting, how strong would they feel relative to that cast, without just defaulting to DBS Broly one-shotting everyone in Z?
Am I making any sense? lol

The big difference is that DBS Broly had to “work” his way up to his maximum power level. He had to get pushed back to unlock SSJ. Z Broly looks more impressive, but it’s because he spent his movies beating the crap out of everyone.

We see DBS SSJ Broly fly through Goku and Vegeta’s combined blast and that’s a better feat than anything DBZ Broly did, but since Goku and Vegeta ran away Broly never got the chance to humiliate them like in DBZ.

[quote=GreatSaiyaman123 post_id=<a href="tel:1815798">1815798</a> time=<a href="tel:1776737340">1776737340</a> user_id=119016]
The new DBS: Beerus teaser shows Goku fighting Beerus in space as a SSJ. Apparently they're really not going away with the god absorption thing...

Wasn't that something from the movie only?
[/quote]

It happens in the anime too. Did you never watch it?

The difference is that the movie ends with Goku using SSJG to counter Beerus’ blast (Implying SSJG was still stronger than God-absorbed SSJ), while the anime flat out states SSJ Goku is stronger than ever and has Base Goku counter Beerus’ attack.

That’s been the cause of the biggest headache in the DBS power scale, and it seems Toei has no intention in fixing it.

[Noah]

It happens in the anime too. Did you never watch it?

The difference is that the movie ends with Goku using SSJG to counter Beerus’ blast (Implying SSJG was still stronger than God-absorbed SSJ), while the anime flat out states SSJ Goku is stronger than ever and has Base Goku counter Beerus’ attack.

That’s been the cause of the biggest headache in the DBS power scale, and it seems Toei has no intention in fixing it.

I actually didn't remember about it, but ya know we can always pick up that ol' sweet Two Base theory to fix that lol

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I actually didn't remember about it, but ya know we can always pick up that ol' sweet Two Base theory to fix that lol

I think the two base theory should be more widely accepted. It explains pretty much every issue we have with Super:
- The Base power inconsistencies
- How Goku Black's power works
- Why SSJ Vegeta can fight Black in the manga (He's using the God-infused SSJ that Goku used in BoG)
- Why fusion is weaker than SSJG in BoG, but stronger than SSJB with just base now

It was something the movies suggested, and the anime never truly retconned. It's not the first nor the last thing that the DBS writers introduce with little to no explanation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

2-base theory never made sense to me, as it's essentially proposing that characters don't get to just be plain stronger or anything, nor rely on skill to make up a power difference.

[Hugo Boss]

The issue is mostly that such implied improvements are not well represented in the subsequent events, such as Goku still needing golden-haired Super Saiyan forms to fight Frost or Trunks, who were weaker than Boo, while his base form in RoF should be far stronger than this same Boo. Not to mention there are some other extreme outliers like Goku being matched by Boo, Krillin, Gohan, Roshi or Piccolo like everyone is in the same ballpark.

Anyway, going by what Toriyama wrote in the movie, Super Saiyan Blue was supposed to replace Super Saiyan after Goku mastered the power of Super Saiyan God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a good way of changing it up for the upcoming adaptation could be making it so that Goku isn't as strong as Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form, but far closer than he was before to the extent that he could conceivably still give Beerus a good fight.

Basically putting him close to where he was at with regards to how his Super Saiyan form compared to SSG by the time of DBS: Broly.

[Miracles]

What is the two base theory? And why would there be even such a theory anyway?

[Grimlock]

What is the two base theory? And why would there be even such a theory anyway?

It's Saiyan beyond God, I don't know why people just can't say that name. And it's not a theory since it's an official thing.

[Miracles]

What is the two base theory? And why would there be even such a theory anyway?

It's Saiyan beyond God, I don't know why people just can't say that name. And it's not a theory since it's an official thing.

It says a Saiyan can attain "god-like"power without changing form. Then if a "god-like"Saiyan transforms into a Super Saiyan..They become a Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan [Super Saiyan Blue].

That's not saying base mode of Goku/Vegeta is a god. It specifically says god-like and it isn't a god in relation to SSJG or SSB. It's obviously weaker than both in their base and yellow haired forms.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think they do not mention it as something official because they're specifically talking about the post-Fukkatsu no F movie stories. Where indeed, as far as I remember, Kami o Koeta Saiyajin (Saiyan Beyond God) seems to disappear. So it's correct to say "two bases theory" or "Saiyan Beyond God theory" since there's no real evidence or confirmation for whether the form is still used after FnF or not.

Honestly, if I'm not wrong, the form isn't even there in the Golden Freeza arc (the anime version), Base Goku is just pure Base Goku, he's not able to beat the hell out of Final Form Freeza like he did in the movie. And the visual indicator which is the aura, I also don't remember seeing it.

Now. I have my own theory, which is very long, so prepare for a huge post.

If we consider that the base forms have a limit that has been achieved a long time ago, then it would make many situations we see in Super actually making sense. Especially with characters like Kyabe.
But then, of course, there are the inconsistencies, especially in the "Toei originals" where Base Copy Vegeta is able to completely destroy SSJ3 Gotenks. Suggesting that Base Goku and Vegeta are superior to Boo, but also would imply that base Kyabe, and somehow, other characters like Frost, are in that level as well.

With Broly we are able to see a character in his base form being able to surpass Goku & Vegeta's SSJ1 forms, and Vegeta uses SSJ God to beat him, which suggests that Base Broly is stronger than Goku & Vegeta's SSJ3 (or just SSJ2 was already enough to beat him, but Vegeta still decided to skip to God). Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think (or at least interpret) that the Zamasu arc, by saying that Goku and Vegeta reached their zenkai boost limit, it highly suggests that the limit of their base forms has been reached as well. Zamasu and the other Kaioshins are supposed to be naturally SSJ2 level if I'm not mistaken, so that also makes us understand better how Goku Black works I think, and SSJ2 is the form Goku uses to fight both base Goku Black and Zamasu in the anime.

But then there's weird stuff like Goku requiring SSJ3 to beat SSJ2 Mirai Trunks, suggesting that base Mirai Trunks is stronger than Base Goku. But Base Goku Black is stronger than SSJ2 Mirai Trunks, meaning that Base Goku Black is much ahead of Base Goku, which makes sense, but then there's Vegeta who's able to beat SSJ1 Goku Black also using SSJ1 (or SSJ2? I think it is 1, correct me later), so base Vegeta is much ahead of Base Goku and Mirai Trunks? But then Black's SSJB (Rose) is able to beat SSJB Vegeta, which some could simply interpret as Black's SSJB multiplier being higher than Vegeta's. Or Vegeta just wasted too much energy. But it's a huge confusion for sure. (Also, there's Zamasu beating SSJ1 Goku, but it wasn't a physical battle, so I personally do not consider it that much)

So it's a hypothesis to be considered, but it do not necessarily exists, at least not after the 2015 movie, or else, Goku just wouldn't need to transform into SSJBlue to beat Ultimate Gohan, we also wouldn't have seen characters who are supposed to be Cell Saga levels somehow able to challenge their base forms.

I think it's something similar to Ultimate Gohan, which is supposed to be just Base Gohan but enhanced, then Super treats it as a separate transformation. More or less, two base forms for Gohan.

My personal theory is that Beyond God is no longer a thing after the 2015 movie, and the base forms of the characters + base Universe 6 Saiyajins + Final Form Frost + the secondary antagonists in the ToP and in a few other arcs are all Cell Saga Base Form Goku, Vegeta, Gohan & Mirai Trunks level.
SSJ1 Goku when he fought Frost is equal to SSJ1 Goku when he fought Perfect Cell. SSJ2 Goku was able to handle SSJ2 Caulifla and could've defeated her if it wasn't a 1vs2 with SSJ Variation Kale. I think he could've defeated them as a SSJ3, but decided to skip to God. There's SSJ Kefla being Ultimate Gohan level in the manga, while the power Caulifla and Kale have in the anime make it seem weird how Kefla is SSJBlue Kaioken's level in the anime. Because her base form should be Goku's SSJ3 at best, and not stronger than Goku's God form. But that also makes sense with what is later shown with Gogeta.

Broly makes perfect sense as he outmatched both SSJBlue Vegeta, Goku and Golden Freeza as a mutant SSJ1. He was stronger than Vegeta's SSJ1 (and possibly SSJ3?) in his Base form. His Ikari form was stronger than Goku & Vegeta's God forms and almost Goku's SSJ Blue level. Then there's Gogeta who seems very exaggerated as his base form is seemingly God level and his SSJ1 is stronger than both SSJBlues, is stronger than SSJ1 Broly but then Broly surpasses him with his "LSSJ", but then Gogeta defeats him as a SSJBlue, which is insane because SSJ3 or God Gogeta would already be enough to beat Broly, unless Broly's LSSJ multiplier is so big that he would be able to compete with SSJ God Gogeta, or not, and Gogeta simply decided to skip to SSJ Blue.

If we go back to the original DB, base Goten and Trunks are very likely much weaker than base Goku and Vegeta, so it makes sense why SSJ3 Gotenks isn't years ahead of SSJ3 Goku in the Boo arc. SSJ3 Gotenks should be like, stronger than Ultimate Gohan I believe, in case the two's base forms were equal to Base Goku and Vegeta. Super Gogeta and Super Vegetto are without a doubt stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but I don't know about their base forms.

Also, I think some characters are just straight impossible to tell at which level they are. Full Power Fused Zamasu is one of them. If I had to guess, I think he's just a bit stronger than Full Power SSJ Blue Goku, since he struggled against him. Vegetto Blue completely destroys him, very much like how Gogeta Blue did to LSSJ Broly, so that tells me SSJ Blue Vegetto wasn't even necessary, if the fusion's SSJ1 transformation is stronger than the separated individual's SSJBlue, then that means Super Vegetto would be already enough to beat Full Power Fused Zamasu, or at least SSJ2 Vegetto. So that would place FPF Zamasu a bit below SSJ1 Broly, and thus, Normal Jiren, as both were stronger than SSJ Blue, and of course that follows the formula of every next villain being stronger than the previous one.

But that creates something that is very hard to believe, which is Super Vegetto from Boo Saga also being Full Power Fused Zamasu Level. I personally do believe it's possible though, for example, I don't remember anyone saying that SSJ God Goku was stronger than Super Vegetto (GreatSaiyaman123 said that Fusion is weaker than Goku's SSJ God in BoG, but I really don't remember that), all I can remember is Goku saying that not even fusion would be able to handle Beerus, and indeed none of us imagine Super Vegetto or Gogeta being able to handle Beerus, but SSJ God Goku also didn't handle Beerus. But the fusions' blue forms? Kaioshin straight said Vegetto Blue surpasses Beerus (though I know people consider it questionable). Also, the power boost Goku and Vegeta, and the comment about them reaching their Boost Zenkai limit, suggest that they base forms became stronger and reached a limit, at least in the manga. That limit might be Boo Saga SSJ3 level or a bit below that, that's how Vegeta is able to surpass Goku Black. It's his stronger base form + the transformations' multiplier, which became higher than Black's for a moment.

Caulifla and Kale appear to be weaker in the manga than in the anime, maybe they base forms are just a bit ahead of base Goten and Trunks, that's why they are able to compete with Ultimate Gohan, the fusion multiplier doesn't do miracle in regards to the strength in the separate base forms. In the anime they seem stronger, at the same level as Base Goku or a bit below, that's why SSJ Kefla is much stronger in the anime, it's the same way as how Vegetto and Gogeta's multiplier works. It seems different from Gotenks because Goten and Trunks' base forms were much weaker. But it's the same concept.

That's why I think this theory is better than the two base theory, that theory does help with some battles (especially the weirder ones, Base Copy Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks) but I think it doesn't help with other ones, and especially there isn't any indication the form is used after the 2015 movie, no visual indicative, nor dialogue mentioning it. I think "Base forms are Cell Saga Base Forms level" is the best explanation because I don't think there's any moment in Super where it's said that Goku and Vegeta's base forms became stronger than anyone from Boo Saga for example. Plus, this also helps to understand some Toei Originals, such as Tagoma being Zarbon and Dodoria level initially, but after training with Freeza, he pretty much achieves a Full Power Imperfect Cell / Android 16 level, that's why Kamiccolo is no match for him, while SSJ Gohan, who was Perfect Cell's level, could defeat him. Then there's Goku in his pure base form, no Beyond God, which is the same level as his base form in the late Cell Saga, and he struggles against Final Form Freeza, likely because Freeza is in a Perfect Cell level, while his Golden form has a multiplier that is huge enough to allow him to compete with SSJBlue.

To make it simple:

-All base forms in Super (Universe 7 & 6's Saiyajins, Freeza & Frost, a few other characters) = Cell Saga Base Forms level or below.

-Transformations’ Multiplier (from SSJ1 to 3) = The same as in the Cell and Boo sagas.

-Fusion Multiplier = The Same as in the Boo Saga. Super Vegetto is not weaker than SSJ God Goku, as Goku's base form in BoG is the same as in the Boo arc, and Fusion multiplier is much higher than SSJ God transformation multiplier.

-Beyond God uses SSJ God's multiplier, but is abandoned, Base forms’ multiplier resets to Cell saga level.

-Zamasu is naturally SSJ2 level, which is the power of base Goku Black, who's able to defeat SSJ2 Mirai Trunks without transforming for that reason.

-Vegeta enhances his base form so he can outmatch SSJ1 Goku Black as a SSJ1 himself (or 2)

-Maybe the Zamasu arc is the last arc where we indeed see Goku and Vegeta making their base forms stronger, at least in the manga, since it's said that they reached their limit of the zenkai boost, suggesting that they can no longer make their base forms stronger. Their base form limit might be SSJ3 level or a bit below that.

-The next villains (Fused Zamasu, Jiren, SSJ1 Broly, Young Moro, Post-Wish Gas) are all above Goku & Vegeta's base forms + their god transformations’ multiplier. Which are still the same since the Zamasu arc.

Anyway, it's not the way I prefer, but just the way I think it makes easier to understand the inconsistencies, the two base theory is good too but I think some concepts and battles are still confusing to understand if we use that theory, I feel Cell Saga Base Forms Level makes things more simple, maybe it doesn't solve all of them, but I do think it solves the majority, unless I'm missing something, like a line straight saying "Goku and Vegeta base forms are far stronger than before", above Boo saga characters. I can't remember.
That's the way I see it, but I'm open to being opposed or to refutations.

[Yuji]

So how strong is anime version future Gohan?

He does pretty well against both androids at the same time, unlike the manga version who loses to 17 at 50%, so even though the androids are weaker than the present versions, that's still an impressive feat.

Is he stronger than the Super Saiyans before ROSAT, or is he still Namek tier?

[Mr Baggins]

2-base theory never made sense to me, as it's essentially proposing that characters don't get to just be plain stronger or anything, nor rely on skill to make up a power difference.

I'd contend it's not real in the sense that the Saiyans have a second base form they can freely toggle on and off. Were that the case, it would have been clearly indicated in the series.

However, it's real in the sense that the Saiyans upgraded their base form to having "the power of a Super Saiyan God" (primarily stated by Resurrection 'F' promo material, but also briefly in the film) in a similar fashion to Gohan's Ultimate state in the original series. Moreover, this upgrade was likewise the basis for SSGSS's original description, being the Super Saiyan version of that state.

Things obviously changed with Super, particularly the manga where all this base upgrade business gets dropped entirely in favor of Goku just using Super Saiyan God as a way of toggling that level of power. And by extension, Blue becomes the successor transformation to God, not the "God-like base".

I think most people prefer the retcon because it keeps everything more digestible and clean. Real shame the Beerus anime seemingly won't include what the manga did.

[Koitsukai]

We all know where the two base theory comes from, or at least we have a general idea. It was never meant to be a thing, but rather the result of them proposing one idea and then rethinking it and doing something else. TOEI, I guess, liked having Goku and Vegeta be ridiculously overpowered in their base forms, but then they had to dial it back to match the main storylines, which did not include that boost. The manga did not have to dial anything down because it never had that boost to begin with.

The easiest way for me to see it is as some sort of temporary boost that slowly faded away. Whenever they needed to be that strong (like vs Trunks, for instance), they got stripped of that power, so it's like they never got it.

About fusion, Z Vegito was not as strong as DBS Vegito, he performs better in DBS because his fusees became much stronger. Their max power is no longer a mere SS3, but now SSB, so the cap has been lifted. If it were not like that, if the powers of the fusees did not matter, then a Namek Vegito would be as strong as a hypothetical Black Freeza arc Vegito, which clearly makes no sense.

Battle of Gods and SSG narratively depend on SSG being above Z Vegito. That does not mean it is a fixed rule, just a narrative choice for that moment. Had Vegito appeared at the end of BoG, after Goku attained SSG, then Vegito would have been far stronger than Goku’s SSG.
There's nothing there to fix or wrap our heads around, at that time SSG made him stronger, as soon as Goku grew stronger, fusion was again the best route, because now SSG is fueling the fusion.