Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have no doubt Vegeta would transform if he felt the need to, be it against 18/Piccolo or be it against Goku and Gohan. Even Gohan transformed the moment it was convenient to him.

[LightBing]

The kids play out the scenario by transforming against #18 at the tournament.

[DBZ Macky]

I have no doubt Vegeta would transform if he felt the need to, be it against 18/Piccolo or be it against Goku and Gohan. Even Gohan transformed the moment it was convenient to him.

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

The kids play out the scenario by transforming against #18 at the tournament.

Exactly, the same kids that are stated to be not that much weaker than Gohan who wasn't really that behind Vegeta and Goku either.
IMO:
Base Saiyans (all of them) < Frieza < Androids < Piccolo < Saiyans using their SS powers without transforming =< Super Saiyans

By the way guys, I was just going through DBZ Kakarot once again and I personally don't think the powerscaling here makes sense:


Z-Sword!Trunks ends up defeating SS2 Cell Games!Gohan without even having unlocked his own SS2 form yet and goes on to barely defeat Dabura after unlocking said SS2 form.

Do you think this adds up? Are Trunks and (by extension) Future Dabura just that much stronger? I'd rather believe the illusion just wasn't as strong as the real Gohan even if it was stronger than the Kaioshin.

[DanielSSJ]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

[DBZ Macky]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

I get what you're saying but I do think that there is enough "evidence" that these guys can use their SS powers in combat (and not just as a non-usable in-between state) even if it's never explicitly stated. Let's completely disregard that animation correction or "False Super Saiyan", we are still left with a lot:

We now have Daima Episode 5 where Goku momentarily flares into a Super Saiyan to power up and fight King Kadan's men and keeps some of that aura even after reverting to his base form. That one's recent enough that if you have seen Daima you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's also the Broly movie where Vegeta is on the losing end against Broly until he becomes a "partial Super Saiyan" with the same sliiight Super Saiyan aura as Daima Goku in the previous example. This kinda thing is exactly what I believe Vegeta would've used against Piccolo and 18 in the tournament if it ever came to a match between them.

Other than these, there's also DBZ episode 258 where Gotenks only momentarily transforms into a Super Saiyan and can use that aura even in his base form before actually going through the full transformation. There's probably at least a few other examples but I hope you get what I mean from this.

Worth mentioning that these characters have already or are momentarily going to go through the complete Super Saiyan transformation as they do this stuff but there's nothing stopping them from... stopping. So yeah, it might not be the most stable kind of power up to tap into consistently as you said, but it's still something that they absolutely can do.

[Koitsukai]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

Right. Just yesterday I stumbled upon that scene and an explanation for it. Not sure if it's true, but apparently, they wanted Paikuhan to learn about SS during his fight with Goku, not in that scene. A production miscommunication that ended up with Goku getting his hair dyed black.