Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have no doubt Vegeta would transform if he felt the need to, be it against 18/Piccolo or be it against Goku and Gohan. Even Gohan transformed the moment it was convenient to him.

[LightBing]

The kids play out the scenario by transforming against #18 at the tournament.

[DBZ Macky]

I have no doubt Vegeta would transform if he felt the need to, be it against 18/Piccolo or be it against Goku and Gohan. Even Gohan transformed the moment it was convenient to him.

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

The kids play out the scenario by transforming against #18 at the tournament.

Exactly, the same kids that are stated to be not that much weaker than Gohan who wasn't really that behind Vegeta and Goku either.
IMO:
Base Saiyans (all of them) < Frieza < Androids < Piccolo < Saiyans using their SS powers without transforming =< Super Saiyans

By the way guys, I was just going through DBZ Kakarot once again and I personally don't think the powerscaling here makes sense:


Z-Sword!Trunks ends up defeating SS2 Cell Games!Gohan without even having unlocked his own SS2 form yet and goes on to barely defeat Dabura after unlocking said SS2 form.

Do you think this adds up? Are Trunks and (by extension) Future Dabura just that much stronger? I'd rather believe the illusion just wasn't as strong as the real Gohan even if it was stronger than the Kaioshin.

[DanielSSJ]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

[DBZ Macky]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

I get what you're saying but I do think that there is enough "evidence" that these guys can use their SS powers in combat (and not just as a non-usable in-between state) even if it's never explicitly stated. Let's completely disregard that animation correction or "False Super Saiyan", we are still left with a lot:

We now have Daima Episode 5 where Goku momentarily flares into a Super Saiyan to power up and fight King Kadan's men and keeps some of that aura even after reverting to his base form. That one's recent enough that if you have seen Daima you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's also the Broly movie where Vegeta is on the losing end against Broly until he becomes a "partial Super Saiyan" with the same sliiight Super Saiyan aura as Daima Goku in the previous example. This kinda thing is exactly what I believe Vegeta would've used against Piccolo and 18 in the tournament if it ever came to a match between them.

Other than these, there's also DBZ episode 258 where Gotenks only momentarily transforms into a Super Saiyan and can use that aura even in his base form before actually going through the full transformation. There's probably at least a few other examples but I hope you get what I mean from this.

Worth mentioning that these characters have already or are momentarily going to go through the complete Super Saiyan transformation as they do this stuff but there's nothing stopping them from... stopping. So yeah, it might not be the most stable kind of power up to tap into consistently as you said, but it's still something that they absolutely can do.

[Koitsukai]

We know, as in we see it multiple times in the series even if it isn't outright stated, that the Saiyans can become as strong as their Super Saiyan forms without (completely) transforming. So that's probably why Vegeta is confident that he can defeat Piccolo and 18 without technically transforming.

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I kinda do think that a concept like partial Super Saiyan transformations does require direct confirmation, and all we have here is speculation based on occasional animation flares and one really big obvious animation correction. Like sure, Gohan definitely was in an in-between state when he was up against Kibito at the tournament, but that's because he was literally in the middle of transforming. There's no indication it's stable enough for characters to actively tap into consistently, without just going full Super Saiyan.

Right. Just yesterday I stumbled upon that scene and an explanation for it. Not sure if it's true, but apparently, they wanted Paikuhan to learn about SS during his fight with Goku, not in that scene. A production miscommunication that ended up with Goku getting his hair dyed black.

[DanielSSJ]

I get what you're saying but I do think that there is enough "evidence" that these guys can use their SS powers in combat (and not just as a non-usable in-between state) even if it's never explicitly stated. Let's completely disregard that animation correction or "False Super Saiyan", we are still left with a lot:

We now have Daima Episode 5 where Goku momentarily flares into a Super Saiyan to power up and fight King Kadan's men and keeps some of that aura even after reverting to his base form. That one's recent enough that if you have seen Daima you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's also the Broly movie where Vegeta is on the losing end against Broly until he becomes a "partial Super Saiyan" with the same sliiight Super Saiyan aura as Daima Goku in the previous example. This kinda thing is exactly what I believe Vegeta would've used against Piccolo and 18 in the tournament if it ever came to a match between them.

Other than these, there's also DBZ episode 258 where Gotenks only momentarily transforms into a Super Saiyan and can use that aura even in his base form before actually going through the full transformation. There's probably at least a few other examples but I hope you get what I mean from this.

Worth mentioning that these characters have already or are momentarily going to go through the complete Super Saiyan transformation as they do this stuff but there's nothing stopping them from... stopping. So yeah, it might not be the most stable kind of power up to tap into consistently as you said, but it's still something that they absolutely can do.

Yeah I see what you mean. That said, it seems to me like something Toei likes to do on occasion, rather than anything applicable to the manga specifically.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Gotenks one is just an extended transformation.

I think Vegeta vs Broly and Daima Goku are the only real examples we have of this. Could the Saiyans have used this in the Budokai? I have no idea.

[DanielSSJ]

I started a new list with a new format, kinda based that one chart from Weekly Shonen Jump (and that old fake V-Jump image). It's only the Saiyan arc, so far (not the most riveting thing in the world), but I just wanted to get it out there.

Spoiler:

Most of the numbers here are going to be familiar to everybody, but there are a few changes.

• I decided not to use Raditz's official 1500 power this time. It's not something I feel too strongly about, but I do prefer the idea that Gohan and Piccolo were able to squeeze out slightly higher power than him.

• Likewise, Kuririn and Tenshinhan drop a bit as well, to be closer to the 1500 Kuririn was clocked at on Namek.

• This isn't anything new, but Nappa's official 4000 number never made with how well he does against Goku when he finally locks in, so I moved him up to nearly Goku's 8000.

• Rather than making up something wholly new, I just swapped Yajirobe and Chaozu's official numbers around. Chaozu's always been on the weaker side, but only 600 always felt like a colossal low-ball to me. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to imagine Yajirobe only ever getting that high, especially since it's strongly implied he stopped training as soon as he left the Heavenly Realm.

[LightBing]

I started a new list with a new format, kinda based that one chart from Weekly Shonen Jump (and that old fake V-Jump image). It's only the Saiyan arc, so far (not the most riveting thing in the world), but I just wanted to get it out there.

Spoiler:

Most of the numbers here are going to be familiar to everybody, but there are a few changes.

• I decided not to use Raditz's official 1500 power this time. It's not something I feel too strongly about, but I do prefer the idea that Gohan and Piccolo were able to squeeze out slightly higher power than him.

• Likewise, Kuririn and Tenshinhan drop a bit as well, to be closer to the 1500 Kuririn was clocked at on Namek.

• This isn't anything new, but Nappa's official 4000 number never made with how well he does against Goku when he finally locks in, so I moved him up to nearly Goku's 8000.

• Rather than making up something wholly new, I just swapped Yajirobe and Chaozu's official numbers around. Chaozu's always been on the weaker side, but only 600 always felt like a colossal low-ball to me. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to imagine Yajirobe only ever getting that high, especially since it's strongly implied he stopped training as soon as he left the Heavenly Realm.

That's pretty, I like the format.

As for the numbers:
Agree on Raditz, 1500 is far too big of a gap to be compared to Saibaimen. I like the symbolic 1250.

Kudos for the Nappa number; 4000 is so ridiculous I don't know how they allowed it to be published. My theory has always been that whoever came up with it only read until Nappa's reaction to Vegeta's first 5000 reading of Goku.

By picking a realistic Nappa I think all other numbers need to be pulled up to better portray the events.

Specifically Piccolo should be way higher.
Grand Elder reads Kuririn's mind in Namek and says how Piccolo reduced his power in half by splitting and how he might not have died if he was one.
So about half of Nappa's power seems to be correct.

For Chaozu, while he should be weaker than everyone else except Yajirobe. I think at the very least he should be close to a Saibaiman, based on the performances of everyone else who had no issues at all with them.
A bit of a head cannon, I think Tenshinhan would have told him to stand back if he was that much weaker than a Saibaiman.

[DanielSSJ]

That's pretty, I like the format.

As for the numbers:
Agree on Raditz, 1500 is far too big of a gap to be compared to Saibaimen. I like the symbolic 1250.

Kudos for the Nappa number; 4000 is so ridiculous I don't know how they allowed it to be published. My theory has always been that whoever came up with it only read until Nappa's reaction to Vegeta's first 5000 reading of Goku.

By picking a realistic Nappa I think all other numbers need to be pulled up to better portray the events.

Specifically Piccolo should be way higher.
Grand Elder reads Kuririn's mind in Namek and says how Piccolo reduced his power in half by splitting and how he might not have died if he was one.
So about half of Nappa's power seems to be correct.

For Chaozu, while he should be weaker than everyone else except Yajirobe. I think at the very least he should be close to a Saibaiman, based on the performances of everyone else who had no issues at all with them.
A bit of a head cannon, I think Tenshinhan would have told him to stand back if he was that much weaker than a Saibaiman.

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding Piccolo, I've never taken the Grand Elder's line about him and God halving their power by splitting up super literally. Especially with how it's phrased ["genius power with which he was gifted at birth"], it sounds to me like he was talking more about their overall potential than literal power. Like, he though Piccolo must've been killed by a Super Saiyan. A 7 or 8000 power level isn't really in that ballpark. So I'm not really married to the idea that recombining is necessarily an automatic 2x boost.

Regardless, Piccolo's that low both because of how he was even less confident fighting Nappa than when he fought Raditz, who was 2 to 3 times stronger than him, AND that Piccolo's line about Gohan's power surpassing his when Gohan "puts his mind to it", puts Piccolo firmly below 2800 (Personally, I think the numbers would work better if Gohan's peak was 4 or 5000, but I'm not here to rewrite the manga). 2500 is about as high as I'd even go for Piccolo.

Chaozu probably could be a little higher, but I figure his telekinesis is enough of an equalizer that a 20% gap isn't insurmountable for him. So long as nobody asks him a math problem anyways.

[LightBing]

Thanks for the feedback. Regarding Piccolo, I've never taken the Grand Elder's line about him and God halving their power by splitting up super literally. Especially with how it's phrased ["genius power with which he was gifted at birth"], it sounds to me like he was talking more about their overall potential than literal power. Like, he though Piccolo must've been killed by a Super Saiyan. A 7 or 8000 power level isn't really in that ballpark. So I'm not really married to the idea that recombining is necessarily an automatic 2x boost.

Regardless, Piccolo's that low both because of how he was even less confident fighting Nappa than when he fought Raditz, who was 2 to 3 times stronger than him, AND that Piccolo's line about Gohan's power surpassing his when Gohan "puts his mind to it", puts Piccolo firmly below 2800 (Personally, I think the numbers would work better if Gohan's peak was 4 or 5000, but I'm not here to rewrite the manga). 2500 is about as high as I'd even go for Piccolo.

Chaozu probably could be a little higher, but I figure his telekinesis is enough of an equalizer that a 20% gap isn't insurmountable for him. So long as nobody asks him a math problem anyways.

The Grand Elder talked about SSJ before reading Kuririn's mind. Only after did he make the assessment of a possible victory if Piccolo/Kami wasn't partitioned.

Personally, I don't remember contradictory information after this line was uttered and it fits nicely latter in the Android arc.
I always go with the last known knowledge unless there's plausible contradictions in-universe to scrutinize it.

That said, that line you mention using Gohan as a comparison is something to take into account. Might be one of the cases where it was supposed to be 2500 but Toriyama retconned it latter.
I really need to re-read the manga again. Starting to have a bunch of gaps in my memory.

That's true about Chaozu, it would also make sense to have him lacking decently compared to others. He was already being sidelined in the 23rd Budokai arc, it's a good way to justify his presence here in tandem with his character path.
His suicide attack also lacked any punch.

[DanielSSJ]

It's not so much that I think there's anything particularly contradictory, so much as I just don't think it's meant to be taken super literally as a power level formula.

[LightBing]

It's simple and straightforward, I think the line is there for a reason and if there's nothing contradicting it, I take those at face value.

[dbgtFO]

I started a new list with a new format, kinda based that one chart from Weekly Shonen Jump (and that old fake V-Jump image). It's only the Saiyan arc, so far (not the most riveting thing in the world), but I just wanted to get it out there.

Spoiler:

Most of the numbers here are going to be familiar to everybody, but there are a few changes.

• I decided not to use Raditz's official 1500 power this time. It's not something I feel too strongly about, but I do prefer the idea that Gohan and Piccolo were able to squeeze out slightly higher power than him.

• Likewise, Kuririn and Tenshinhan drop a bit as well, to be closer to the 1500 Kuririn was clocked at on Namek.

• This isn't anything new, but Nappa's official 4000 number never made with how well he does against Goku when he finally locks in, so I moved him up to nearly Goku's 8000.

• Rather than making up something wholly new, I just swapped Yajirobe and Chaozu's official numbers around. Chaozu's always been on the weaker side, but only 600 always felt like a colossal low-ball to me. On the other hand, it's a lot easier to imagine Yajirobe only ever getting that high, especially since it's strongly implied he stopped training as soon as he left the Heavenly Realm.

I can't see your image

But I would probably agree with most of it regardless.
Though personally I don't have a problem with Yajirobe being that strong. He was already introduced like a pretty strong guy, so him getting bigger gains than Chaozu wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.

As for Piccolo I do agree he comes off as a bit too strong conpared to Gohan.
It never sat well with me that he was supposedly that close to Nappa, but was still convinced only an enraged Gohan would be enough and then enraged Gohan being a good chunk below Piccolo's best...
Really seems like someone was trolling with those power levels...

There's also the fact that he really started thinking Nappa was unbeatable once the Kikoho was tanked, yet Piccolo somehow can't produce his own charged attack beyond his limits like he did against Raditz?
If his starting point truly was 3,500, you'd think he should be able to produce a blast close to Nappa's supposed 4,000 at the very least

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nappa is a really weird case because he visibly struggles with power levels below 3k and then fights evenly with a power of 8k. He effectively shows two different levels of power, even if he can't hide his power level.

It's simple and straightforward, I think the line is there for a reason and if there's nothing contradicting it, I take those at face value.

Kami finger flicks Goku off of his fight with Piccolo Daimao. The split was never even. We tend to think the reunion is 2x because it's convenient, but it's not something flat out spelled in the manga.

[LightBing]

Kami finger flicks Goku off of his fight with Piccolo Daimao. The split was never even. We tend to think the reunion is 2x because it's convenient, but it's not something flat out spelled in the manga.

But that's my argument...
That this is spelling it out in the manga and that there's no contradictory information after the line.

Toriyama used a character to relay information. You can't ask for more direct information than this.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kami finger flicks Goku off of his fight with Piccolo Daimao. The split was never even. We tend to think the reunion is 2x because it's convenient, but it's not something flat out spelled in the manga.

But that's my argument...
That this is spelling it out in the manga and that there's no contradictory information after the line.

Toriyama used a character to relay information. You can't ask for more direct information than this.

I just gave you the contradiction: Piccolo was originally just a fraction of Kami.

What we’re doing is that the split was even (and even that wasn’t even true), that says nothing about the merge back.

[LightBing]

Kami finger flicks Goku off of his fight with Piccolo Daimao. The split was never even. We tend to think the reunion is 2x because it's convenient, but it's not something flat out spelled in the manga.

But that's my argument...
That this is spelling it out in the manga and that there's no contradictory information after the line.

Toriyama used a character to relay information. You can't ask for more direct information than this.

I just gave you the contradiction: Piccolo was originally just a fraction of Kami.

What we’re doing is that the split was even (and even that wasn’t even true), that says nothing about the merge back.

That's not a contradiction.

We do not know the original split power difference. It happened hundreds(?) of years before the story and Daimao was locked in a rice cooker for most of it, while Kami was not.
As we know one of the parts can become much stronger than the other.

Plus it happened before the line by the Elder. The most recent information overrides the previous one or contextualizes it.

The Grand Elder line offers both: a split value, half; a scenario for the merge back, not killed by the Saiyans.

[DanielSSJ]

I can't see your image

But I would probably agree with most of it regardless.
Though personally I don't have a problem with Yajirobe being that strong. He was already introduced like a pretty strong guy, so him getting bigger gains than Chaozu wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me.

As for Piccolo I do agree he comes off as a bit too strong conpared to Gohan.
It never sat well with me that he was supposedly that close to Nappa, but was still convinced only an enraged Gohan would be enough and then enraged Gohan being a good chunk below Piccolo's best...
Really seems like someone was trolling with those power levels...

There's also the fact that he really started thinking Nappa was unbeatable once the Kikoho was tanked, yet Piccolo somehow can't produce his own charged attack beyond his limits like he did against Raditz?
If his starting point truly was 3,500, you'd think he should be able to produce a blast close to Nappa's supposed 4,000 at the very least

Yeah I deleted the original to fix a visual error and forgot to repost it. Here it is.

Spoiler:

It's not so much that I had a problem with Yajirobe being that strong as it's more believable to me that he'd be the one lagging behind the rest of the gang, not Chaozu, since he more than anyone else doesn't want to be involved in the death battles, and I had a wild thought that their Shonen Jump power levels were swapped accidentally (probably not, but a boy can dream).

Nappa is a really weird case because he visibly struggles with power levels below 3k and then fights evenly with a power of 8k. He effectively shows two different levels of power, even if he can't hide his power level.

I actually like that about Nappa. It shows the value in being a good fighter over just being really strong in a way you don't see often in Dragonball. He's nearly as strong as Goku, but because he's an arrogant meathead who's easily provoked and leaves himself open a lot, they can juke him pretty well until he starts throwing around huge, hard to avoid ki attacks.