The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In that case, what about Base Goku (Super Hero) vs. SS1 Goku (Cell Games)?

Could go either way. Goku not being KO’d by Rumsshi’s scream while the Kaioshin were.

I think the biggest power up Goku has in the manga happens even before the series starts, when he’s already reclaimed his title as the strongest on Earth. That requires him to be a few times stronger than he was vs Boo. After that he only gets gradually stronger through the years (with a big, but unquantifiable boost training with Merus), but I think that’s enough for him to catch up.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think there is anything that directly suggests there is a big difference in Goku’s same forms between his fight against Boo and Beerus. Most of this notion derives from the movie and anime placing Goku above Gohan and Gotenks, but this is something implied even during the Boo arc anime and movies, not something that time changed through characters getting weaker or stronger. Goku even beats an enemy that Gotenks and Gohan failed to defeat back then, which basically assured his position as the strongest.

But I agree that his training with Merus and adding Ultra Instinct to his base form are clear signs of overall big improvement. That’s why I suggested this match.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t think there is anything that directly suggests there is a big difference in Goku’s same forms between his fight against Boo and Beerus. Most of this notion derives from the movie and anime placing Goku above Gohan and Gotenks, but this is something implied even during the Boo arc anime and movies, not something that time changed through characters getting weaker or stronger. Goku even beats an enemy that Gotenks and Gohan failed to defeat back then, which basically assured his position as the strongest.

But I agree that his training with Merus and adding Ultra Instinct to his base form are clear signs of overall big improvement. That’s why I suggested this match.

The manga throws some hints as well.
1. Goku’s image training
2. Goten says Chi Chi is the strongest because she bosses Goku around
3. The very premise of the story - This guy beat Goku, there’s nothing anyone else can do.
4. Beerus isn’t impressed by Gohan and Gotenks
5. Vegeta being compared to Goku specifically (could be because of their rivalry though).

I think the movie has a big say here because the dialogue was all Toriyaka (though the manga isn’t very different from the movie in this area - it’s only the anime that spells it with big, bright neon letters).

I think Toriyama just went the simple route of making Goku the strongest (As in Daima), and the anime writers were all too happy to follow.

[Hugo Boss]

I get it, but my point is more about Toriyama not specifically framing Goku as a whole lot stronger in comparison to when he faced Boo. At the same time, Toriyama doesn’t frame Gotenks and Gohan as weaker than what they were supposed to be in Boo arc. Either because he didn’t remember how they compared to each other back then or he simply never intended for Goku to be weaker than them in the first place. Just as in Daima, the memory of Goku being the strongest is the most vivid, and he didn’t even need to show SS4 to give this nod. Gohan and Gotenks are also not as skilled as Goku and Vegeta are, which probably affected Beerus’ evaluation of them.