Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 15, 2026 10:06 am
In that case, what about Base Goku (Super Hero) vs. SS1 Goku (Cell Games)?
Could go either way. Goku not being KO’d by Rumsshi’s scream while the Kaioshin were.
I think the biggest power up Goku has in the manga happens even before the series starts, when he’s already reclaimed his title as the strongest on Earth. That requires him to be a few times stronger than he was vs Boo. After that he only gets gradually stronger through the years (with a big, but unquantifiable boost training with Merus), but I think that’s enough for him to catch up.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
I don’t think there is anything that directly suggests there is a big difference in Goku’s same forms between his fight against Boo and Beerus. Most of this notion derives from the movie and anime placing Goku above Gohan and Gotenks, but this is something implied even during the Boo arc anime and movies, not something that time changed through characters getting weaker or stronger. Goku even beats an enemy that Gotenks and Gohan failed to defeat back then, which basically assured his position as the strongest.
But I agree that his training with Merus and adding Ultra Instinct to his base form are clear signs of overall big improvement. That’s why I suggested this match.
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue May 19, 2026 6:52 am
I don’t think there is anything that directly suggests there is a big difference in Goku’s same forms between his fight against Boo and Beerus. Most of this notion derives from the movie and anime placing Goku above Gohan and Gotenks, but this is something implied even during the Boo arc anime and movies, not something that time changed through characters getting weaker or stronger. Goku even beats an enemy that Gotenks and Gohan failed to defeat back then, which basically assured his position as the strongest.
But I agree that his training with Merus and adding Ultra Instinct to his base form are clear signs of overall big improvement. That’s why I suggested this match.
The manga throws some hints as well.
1. Goku’s image training
2. Goten says Chi Chi is the strongest because she bosses Goku around
3. The very premise of the story - This guy beat Goku, there’s nothing anyone else can do.
4. Beerus isn’t impressed by Gohan and Gotenks
5. Vegeta being compared to Goku specifically (could be because of their rivalry though).
I think the movie has a big say here because the dialogue was all Toriyaka (though the manga isn’t very different from the movie in this area - it’s only the anime that spells it with big, bright neon letters).
I think Toriyama just went the simple route of making Goku the strongest (As in Daima), and the anime writers were all too happy to follow.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
I get it, but my point is more about Toriyama not specifically framing Goku as a whole lot stronger in comparison to when he faced Boo. At the same time, Toriyama doesn’t frame Gotenks and Gohan as weaker than what they were supposed to be in Boo arc. Either because he didn’t remember how they compared to each other back then or he simply never intended for Goku to be weaker than them in the first place. Just as in Daima, the memory of Goku being the strongest is the most vivid, and he didn’t even need to show SS4 to give this nod. Gohan and Gotenks are also not as skilled as Goku and Vegeta are, which probably affected Beerus’ evaluation of them.
picc wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 10:20 pm
SSJB Goku from the end of the Granolah Arc
vs.
Jiren from the ToP
Can Goku's improvements and his addition of UI to Blue overcome Jiren?
I'd say so, as long as Jiren isn't retconned to still be above everybody, that is.
SSB Goku was trading blows with Gas, he was surviving, sure, not really pushing Gas back who was not holding back, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same vs Jiren: survive him at the very least. Goku would probably land some good blows, too.
The gaps are always retconned in DB, no matter how big they were when introduced (Goku had surpassed Gohan by BoG without any substantial training), so if the huge gap between Jiren and SSB Goku also suffers the same fate, I can see UI+SSB defeating Jiren, or at least doing as good as he did in the ToP.
picc wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2026 10:20 pm
SSJB Goku from the end of the Granolah Arc
vs.
Jiren from the ToP
Can Goku's improvements and his addition of UI to Blue overcome Jiren?
I'd say so, as long as Jiren isn't retconned to still be above everybody, that is.
SSB Goku was trading blows with Gas, he was surviving, sure, not really pushing Gas back who was not holding back, so I don't see why he couldn't do the same vs Jiren: survive him at the very least. Goku would probably land some good blows, too.
The gaps are always retconned in DB, no matter how big they were when introduced (Goku had surpassed Gohan by BoG without any substantial training), so if the huge gap between Jiren and SSB Goku also suffers the same fate, I can see UI+SSB defeating Jiren, or at least doing as good as he did in the ToP.
I can see it too. Gas was multiple times what Jiren was at that point and Goku was holding his own, while Gas was trying to kill him.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
- The Pride Troopers vs. The Ginyu Force (equal power for both)
Aren't there twice as many Pride Troopers as there are Ginyu Force members? Kinda think they take it on that alone, not to mention their superior teamwork. Though I guess Gurdo could come in clutch with his Time Stop.
Kid Buu wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:55 am
So let's say Kaioshin is aware of potara fusion, and in a last ditch effort, he and Gohan combine to fight against Fat Buu.
Who wins?
I think Goshin (Gohare/Nahan) could take him. Fat Buu was stronger than SS2 but weaker than SS3, I would expect Gohan fusing with someone that should be as strong as a regular SS, or close enough, to surpass the level of a SS2. Not sure if the fusion would be as strong as a SS3, but it should be strong enough to find a way to win.
Of course, it should be a swift attack, because if they fool around and Buu feels cornered, he can release Grey Buu and that's the end of Nahan.
The fusion's base form should be as strong as Gohan's SS, so turning SS and SS2, I think powerwise, Fat Buu would be facing someone much stronger than Majin Vegeta.
Even if there is big power gap between Nahare and Gohan at that point, I think the power boost from their fusion would be big enough like the Kami and Piccolo fusion to be able to outmatch not only Fat Boo, but Super Boo as well.
I don't know about Gotenks absorbed though, or potential fights against Goku Absorbed or Vegeta absorbed etc.
✪ Good Afterlife to Toriyama, the Ultimate Consciousness of the Dragon Ball World. Good Mortal Life to Toyotaro, the Successor. ✪
Kid Buu wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:55 am
So let's say Kaioshin is aware of potara fusion, and in a last ditch effort, he and Gohan combine to fight against Fat Buu.
Who wins?
They're probably not as compatible as Gotenks or Vegetto, but if we accept that Fat Boo was only a bit more than twice as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (based on how much Gohan's stolen energy filled up the gauge), then even on the low end, Shinhan ought to be more than strong enough to comfortably take it, though it might depend on if they can pull off Super Saiyan 2 (Gohan lacking the form against Dabra in the manga implies he couldn't tap into it at will 100% of the time)
Kid Buu wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2026 8:55 am
So let's say Kaioshin is aware of potara fusion, and in a last ditch effort, he and Gohan combine to fight against Fat Buu.
Who wins?
They're probably not as compatible as Gotenks or Vegetto, but if we accept that Fat Boo was only a bit more than twice as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (based on how much Gohan's stolen energy filled up the gauge), then even on the low end, Shinhan ought to be more than strong enough to comfortably take it, though it might depend on if they can pull off Super Saiyan 2 (Gohan lacking the form against Dabra in the manga implies he couldn't tap into it at will 100% of the time)
Yeah Fat Buu was released from SS2 Gohan's energy and the damage SS2 Goku took from Majin Vegeta, so I've always viewed him as being around 2x the SS2 fighters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
