Do you think Goku would have still refused to be wished back if Cell never returned to Earth?

[fadeddreams5]

In this what-if scenario, as in the manga, Cell regenerates after his self-destruction. However, just as he's about to use IT to return to Earth and exact his revenge, he experiences a moment of introspection. The fact that he became significantly stronger after losing forces him to question his own claim of being the "perfect" lifeform. If perfection can be improved upon, was he ever truly perfect to begin with?

Driven by this contradiction, Cell abandons his plans for immediate revenge and retreats into the depths of space in search of answers and, perhaps, a path towards "true perfection."

Meanwhile, King Kai informs Goku that Cell is still alive. Naturally, this information would eventually reach Gohan as well, likely motivating him to continue training in preparation for Cell's eventual return. This begs the question, however: would Goku remain dead in this timeline, or would he accept a revival in order to pursue a rematch against Cell?

I ask because Cell is arguably the only villain Goku never seemed particularly eager to challenge for the thrill of competition. Before the Cell Games began, Goku had already decided that Gohan would be the one to defeat Cell, despite only witnessing Cell's Semi-Perfect form at the time. During the week leading up to the tournament, Goku accepted that he was outmatched and made no effort to bridge the gap at all to make the fight more exciting. When Gohan was sandbagging against Cell, Goku urged him to straight up kill him. Even after Cell's defeat, Goku never expressed any desire to fight him again like he did with Buu.

So with that in mind, would Goku even care enough to come back? Or would he simply let Gohan handle it?

[Zephyr]

I think the Cell Games is a difficult section to read and extrapolate from because it basically functioned during serialization as the original conclusion to Goku's character arc. So we can interpret what happened, Goku's actions, his words, and his motivations, through the lens of "this is how his story ends". But, of course, DB continued, and Goku came back, and so he got a new ending. And so we can interpret what happened at the Cell Games, Goku's actions, his words, and his motivations, through the lens of "this is just another chapter in the story that ends with Oob". We might get different answers depending on which of these two ways we frame the question.

If I think about the Cell Games as the conclusion to Goku's character arc, then I have to read him as basically trying to be (and one-up) Muten Roshi in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arcs. He's giving up to make way for the next generation, and he's gonna sacrifice his life to do it. And then he'll even stay gone, like his grandfather, whose student was also kinda partially responsible for his death. Some full circles here. Between his relative disinterest in the big fight, and his apparently strong desire to stay dead once it happened, he just seems kinda over it all. Fair enough I guess, time comes for us all. Now, I don't think this really works that well as an ending for a number of reasons. Gohan did a much worse job than Goku did when "the torch was passed" to him, so Goku's confidence in him is misplaced. And his badguy magnet thing falls apart under scrutiny. So it's a sloppy ending. But it is an ending. This Goku I don't think would be terribly interested in fighting Cell. Those days are behind him. His story is done.

But when I think of the Cell Games as a part of a larger story that ends with the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, then it all hits quite differently. His actions against Majin Vegeta make me feel like he was desperate for a fight on that level after spending 7 years in the afterlife. This in turn makes me feel like he thought staying dead 7 years ago would have been the more fun thing to do, and he was wrong. This, in turn in turn makes me feel like he stayed dead for the fun of it, and the badguy magnet thing was a bad excuse. Which means he wasn't necessarily "over it". This of course warrants that we give additional reasons for his disinterest in training and fighting Cell to the bitter end. I think the Senzu scene alone suggests that Goku is projecting himself onto Gohan, and Piccolo effectively calls this projection out. So I think the concession is the result of this projection as well. "This is Gohan's tournament", he said of his son who just spent the last year indulging in his father's favorite hobby with him. You can see the gears moving in Goku's head! But Gohan got his tournament, and he didn't like it as much as Goku'd hoped. I think there's a good chance this Goku would pursue a rematch against Cell, but it's also possible that he's still hoping the Afterlife has bigger fish than the bug man.

---

It's kinda funny and kinda sad how much more Cell wanted to fight Goku than the other way around. Goku threatened to withhold martial relations from Cell, and it seemed to have worked in the moment at least. Cell thought that Goku was the only person worth fighting, and so was basically designing that whole ring for Goku. Cell was disappointed when Goku conceded (even if Gohan was a fine substitute after powering up). And considering that Goku is basically one of Cell's near-dozen "parents", it's like a kid who just wants to play with his dad, but is forced to play with his brother instead. So I like the idea of Cell running away from his fight with Gohan, and training to get stronger. Maybe dad will finally respect you if you train.

[L3anD3RStar]

For me I think the bigger question is would he have chosen to stay dead if he’d known for sure that Chi-Chi was pregnant. Or does he carelessly decide that his second son doesn’t need to know his dad?

This begs the question, however: would Goku remain dead in this timeline, or would he accept a revival in order to pursue a rematch against Cell?

Why would he? He might check on Gohan, but Goku doesn’t want a rematch against Cell. He never planned to defeat Cell himself. He hobbled his own training in order to focus on Gohan. He will want it to be Gohan.

GOKU wants that. Gohan never wanted that. Goku made the choice for him, and Gohan lives with the consequences even now.

Really, Goku is lucky that Gohan is a deeply kind and gentle boy whose capacity for forgiveness is only equaled by his capacity for self-sacrifice. Gohan would be justified in harboring some resentment for what his father put him and his family through, all because he couldn’t de-activate his fight brain long enough to understand what they were going through.

I think the Cell Games is a difficult section to read and extrapolate from because it basically functioned during serialization as the original conclusion to Goku's character arc. So we can interpret what happened, Goku's actions, his words, and his motivations, through the lens of "this is how his story ends". But, of course, DB continued, and Goku came back, and so he got a new ending. And so we can interpret what happened at the Cell Games, Goku's actions, his words, and his motivations, through the lens of "this is just another chapter in the story that ends with Oob".

For what it’s worth, it seems obvious to me that Toriyama was desperate to pass the torch just so he could stop drawing the damn manga. Maybe that’s why he pulled the plug on Gohan and the Saiyaman stuff - because he didn’t see an end to it and didn’t have the gas in the tank to devote ten more years of his life to it.

In universe, I don’t think Goku has a very good record of training children. We saw what happened to Gohan and Gotenks. They both learned a lot and became really powerful, but… that was it.

We have no reason to think Uub will be any different. Just because Goku WANTS him to take over his job doesn’t mean that’s what Uub wants.

Goku makes a much better student than a teacher. He can’t really get into the heads of his students, or relate to them in any way other than enjoying the process of fighting and getting stronger.

[Zephyr]

For what it’s worth, it seems obvious to me that Toriyama was desperate to pass the torch just so he could stop drawing the damn manga. Maybe that’s why he pulled the plug on Gohan and the Saiyaman stuff - because he didn’t see an end to it and didn’t have the gas in the tank to devote ten more years of his life to it.

In universe, I don’t think Goku has a very good record of training children. We saw what happened to Gohan and Gotenks. They both learned a lot and became really powerful, but… that was it.

We have no reason to think Uub will be any different. Just because Goku WANTS him to take over his job doesn’t mean that’s what Uub wants.

Goku makes a much better student than a teacher. He can’t really get into the heads of his students, or relate to them in any way other than enjoying the process of fighting and getting stronger.

I don't think "passing the torch" was a way to end the manga, otherwise it would have ended at the Cell Games and not even continued with Gohan in high school. His starting point for the Boo arc was "this is the end", because he was pretty much at his limit for thinking of ways to make even stronger protagonists or antagonists. He pulled the plug on Gohan's slice of life stuff for the simple reason that he figured he should eventually make a new enemy show up. Which makes sense because Dragon Ball was a kung fu manga by design that got as popular as it did because of its focus on tournaments and battles. The people are here for fights, give them what they want.

I think Goku's a fine teacher. That his previous students learned a lot is testament to that. That they personally aren't nearly as into fighting as Goku is doesn't really serve as a blemish on his ability to teach, it just means he had students ill-fit to fill his shoes. He needs a student who loves fighting and getting stronger as much as he does. I think the story definitely expects us to see Oob as being that guy, otherwise it wouldn't have ended the way it did. A future writer could open the story back up after the 28th TB and make it so that Oob wasn't the ideal successor either, but until that happens I'm willing to take the story at its (implied) word here.

[Zebra]

The reason Toriyama moved away from the high school setting was obviously because he changed his mind on Gohan being the protagonist and decided to bring Gokuu back. If Gohan's not the protagonist, then there's no reason for the story to be set at Gohan's high school.

[L3anD3RStar]

I don't think "passing the torch" was a way to end the manga, otherwise it would have ended at the Cell Games and not even continued with Gohan in high school. His starting point for the Boo arc was "this is the end", because he was pretty much at his limit for thinking of ways to make even stronger protagonists or antagonists. He pulled the plug on Gohan's slice of life stuff for the simple reason that he figured he should eventually make a new enemy show up. Which makes sense because Dragon Ball was a kung fu manga by design that got as popular as it did because of its focus on tournaments and battles. The people are here for fights, give them what they want.

Eh, I’m not going to get into arguing about it. I know there are lots of theories and nobody can really know for sure. To me, and this is just my own opinion, it seems fairly plausible that he wanted an out, and when shifting the focus to Gohan didn’t actually give him that, then he more squarely looked for an end. Notice he still chose to end it on Goku setting up another small child to take over as Guardian of Earth, even though in Uub’s case he hasn’t done it yet, he just says he’s going to. Uub is also not a part of Goku’s family and actually seems interested in fighting. (Pan was also interested in fighting but she’s a girl)

I think it’s intentional that Uub is a total blank slate. Toriyama could end it on a hopeful note, full of potential. The secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits. Better roll em quick before something else goes wrong.

I think Goku's a fine teacher. That his previous students learned a lot is testament to that.

Yes and no. Yes his students learned a lot. No, they did not succeed. They learned enough to confront and engage with the situation, not enough to resolve it. Gohan became the strongest being in the universe…. And also burned out so badly he didn’t touch martial arts for years. He’s not a fraction of the warrior he might have become if he hadn’t been pushed so far, so fast.

Goten and Trunks also screwed up and made everything worse not because they actually did anything bad, but because they were children, and acted like children, which is apparently not something Goku saw coming. Even though they were younger, less experienced and less well-trained then Gohan was when Goku made HIM responsible for the fate of the world, and that decision ended with Gohan breaking, Goku dying, and Goten growing up without a dad. You’d think Goku would’ve realized his mistake but instead he doubled down on, no, putting the pressure on the child wasn’t the mistake, I just picked the wrong child. I’m sure Goten and Trunks won’t let everybody down!…. Uh…. But hey, I’m sure Uub will do great! What are the odds Goku makes the same mistake a THIRD time?

That they personally aren't nearly as into fighting as Goku is doesn't really serve as a blemish on his ability to teach, it just means he had students ill-fit to fill his shoes.

I’m more inclined to blame the adult for the child. Cell saga onwards, Goku is looking not just for students but for replacements, and he lies and conceals his own power in order to get the match-ups he wants. He could’ve ended the Buu threat before it spiraled out of control, but he admits he wanted the kids to get to contribute. And so he arranged it so they would be Earth’s last line of defense. These kids are 7 and 8 years old. Goku did the thing where he saw only their power, and forgot they were kids.

He needs a student who loves fighting and getting stronger as much as he does.

Pan seemed to like it, but she’s a girl, so Goku ditches her first tournament to fly off with some boy he just met. I’m sure he’ll check back in a few years to make sure she’s ok.

I think the story definitely expects us to see Oob as being that guy, otherwise it wouldn't have ended the way it did.

I think the idea that Uub could potentially be that guy was enough for Toriyama to call it. The secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits. Roll em before something else goes wrong.

[fadeddreams5]

Speaking of Uub, I wonder if Super will still end with EoZ, or if they will ever time skip past it and pull another GT.

It's a shame we will never see Toriyama's actual vision for this character if they ever reintroduce him into the franchise. What GT did to him was vile.

[Zephyr]

stuff

Re: Teachers vs. Students
I guess it's not just that his students learned a lot, it's that his students learned specifically what he wanted to teach them. I think on that front he is a successful (and, thus good) teacher. He's performing the function that a teacher is meant to perform. We can certainly take him to task for not offering a complete lesson plan, such as "when and how to close out a match". Though I can't exactly blame anyone for his students holding back or extending a fight, because A: Goku routinely does that sort of thing, and B: he routinely gets away with it. I don't know if Goku routinely getting away with this sort of thing when pretty much nobody else does is anyone's fault, student or teacher. But if it's more than luck and is actually intended to be a byproduct of Goku's knack for combat, then yeah that's something he's not sufficiently imparting onto his students, and he should be.

Also someone losing doesn't necessarily mean they had a bad teacher. You could have the best teacher in the world, and if they trained both students and had them fight, someone's gotta lose. Doesn't mean their training was bad. You can aim well, but you can never guarantee the arrow will hit the target, etc.

Re: Children
I mean we can't forget that Goku's been fighting the strongest people around and saving the world since he was a kid, so I can understand his willingness to put trust in others, especially ones related to him. It's also not like he had a plethora of options to choose from in the Cell and Boo arcs; these kids were the last and best shot at winning the day,* just like he once was. Either these kids be responsible for the fate of the world, or there's no more world.

*: Boo arc Goku lying though lol

Re: Gohan
I've never seen the read that Gohan was pushed too far at the Cell Games, which burned him out on martial arts, which is why he stopped training. I think that Gohan already wanting to grow up and be a scholar suggests that he'd have slacked off in peace time anyway. He never really had very much of that before. Plus he seems to have developed a different sort of relationship with combat (alongside a timeskip and new character design, as Goku had at the 23rd TB). So I think that path was in place regardless of Goku's actions during the Cell Games.

Re: Pan
Yeah Oob's arguably not even needed if Pan's there and is down to train and fight. I think that the eventual successor being the final antagonist is a really good thematic closing note though, so I like Oob. I've seen it floated that Pan could simply be Boo's reincarnation, which certainly could work and would be neat and open a lot of possible narrative doors. One point against merging the two characters is that it wouldn't make much sense in terms of naming system for Gohan and Videl's child to be named Oob. Sure we could have the child not named Oob, but then we wouldn't get Goku remarking on name puns as a bookend, which is another funny little thing I like. Also yeah I'm sure Pan who can fly around the world will probably see her teleporting grandpa again pretty soon. Toriyama seemed to think so in 2005.

[L3anD3RStar]

Re: Teachers vs. Students
I guess it's not just that his students learned a lot, it's that his students learned specifically what he wanted to teach them.

Then his failure is that he didn’t want to teach them the right things. Sure, they got better at fighting, but that was all. None of them were able to solve the problems he wanted them to without his own direct intervention, and none of them continued down the path he’d set them on after he did so.

I think on that front he is a successful (and, thus good) teacher. He's performing the function that a teacher is meant to perform.

Incorrect. The ultimate goal of any teacher is to make yourself redundant. To train up someone who will be BETTER than you. Roshi and King Kai both did this when they trained not just one but a handful of students to become stronger then they themselves have ever been.

Goku’s one attempt at training a student to be stronger than himself was Gohan, and we know how that ended. Turns out it takes more than just power. Goku has never understood that, and probably never will. Everything else comes to him so effortlessly he can’t imagine that everybody else isn’t just like him, deep down.

Re: Gohan
I've never seen the read that Gohan was pushed too far at the Cell Games, which burned him out on martial arts, which is why he stopped training. I think that Gohan already wanting to grow up and be a scholar suggests that he'd have slacked off in peace time anyway.

This is where Goku choosing to stay dead really backfired, because yes, Gohan would’ve slacked off, but he would’ve kept up at least the habit of training if someone else had been there to hold him accountable and get him into the habit. Gohan is the training equivalent of a binge dieter - he’s either living and breathing martial arts for months or years at a time, or he hasn’t thrown a punch in years, there is no middle ground. And really that’s not even his fault because that’s how the adults in his live always trained him. Piccolo and Goku isolated Gohan for months or years so they could do nothing but train, so of course when they weren’t around to enforce the law anymore, Gohan no longer felt the need to inflict that on himself. He doesn’t have healthy sustainable practice habits because he was never taught them. And that means he wasn’t trained adequately.

Re: Pan
Yeah Oob's arguably not even needed if Pan's there and is down to train and fight.

Yeah but she’s GIRL so she doesn’t count. Toriyama wasn’t malicious about it, he didn’t hate women, but he would never understand them. He liked them, he admired their kindness and strength, but he couldn’t really connect with them. He would never know what they did all day. He thought that was best kept mysterious. Man was not meant to know secrets of woman activity.