Kid Buu vs Buuhan(Article):

[PhantomSaiyan]

Kid Buu is stronger and I don't even wanna begin arguing about it because this topic had me probably a whole year ago at this point. You just have to disagree with way too many official sources to think than buuhan is stronger than kid Buu,ignoring the context of the arc itself which literally debunks the only 2 scans that buuhan riders like to use

The official sources in question have not even been written by toriyama, imo the only thing that has to be taken into consideration is the manga itself, and the manga itself speaks clearly as many people have pointed out in this thread already. Using basic observation and logic one can pretty easily deduce who is stronger without needing to be handheld by an official guide book written by toei employees aka not the original creator.

Yeah, sure. It's a real shame that many of that sources come from toriyama interviews in which he explains his writing and native style

But sure, continue thinking what you like more champ. You don't liking guides just because they contradict your bias doesn't strip them of their value as a source. Official guides>>whatever opinion you may have, like it or not

Nope, none of what you've said is true I'm afraid. Toriyama never directly stated kid buu > buuhan in any of his interviews, and official guides (according to which ox king is stronger than king piccolo and 23 bt goku to name just one of the many many inconsistencies in those guidebooks) are absolutely not worth more than what a human with a brain can get out of reading the official source: the one and only dragon ball manga. Mental handholding is not necessary to undersand a shonen manga.

Deciding your opinion based on books which are not even written by the original author and have been proved to have been wrong and filled with inconsistencies over and over instead of trusting one's own logic and ability to interpret things wil never not be baffling to me, it's the antithesis of rational thought.

To come to the conclusion that kid buu is stronger than buuhan you have to completely forgo logic, and twist things around and make insane leps in reasoning in order to make it make sense. Kinda like trying to make daima and super fit into one continuity.

[daniel1]

First off, I apologize for bumping a year old thread. However, I continue to get views on my website from this thread, so I felt it is still somewhat relevant. Just today I received 4 views from here, for example. Admins and mods, please feel free to delete this post if you feel like I'm unnecessarily necroposting.

To anyone reading this thread, I encourage you to form your own opinion on my writing after you've read it. I know this is a big ask as the deep dives are quite long. But if you really read what I wrote, you'll find that most of the comments in this thread do not engage with what was written. And some of the comments here are... well, let's go with "colorful" and "creative." Also, I've made significant readability improvements to it, so it should be easier to read than it was a year ago. I will start working on YouTube video versions of the deep dives later this summer. They should be even more accessible than the current written iterations. So keep an eye out for that, if you're interested.

The truth of the matter is that this particular debate is almost religious in nature with how seriously people ascribe to their position. Some people will simply never agree on this, and that's fine. I just ask that everyone tries their best to act civil about it. I am directing this to the people who share my deep dives online, as well. This is an incredibly niche subject in pop culture, and it's not the end of the world if one side is right or wrong.

I work roughly 52 hours a week outside of updating my website, so I simply forgot about this thread. A fan (?) of mine shared images with me today that are from here and I was genuinely shocked that these are still being used in contemporary discussions. I don't find anything meritous in going through these images one-by-one and debunking them. At most, I ask that you treat images shared in this thread with healthy skepticism and to read my deep dives with an open mind.

Thank you.

[Zebra]

Not that I disagree with your stance that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo, but looking through the article, I gotta say there's no reason to include any info that comes straight from Funimation, be it DVD summaries, character bios, or any of their other products. At that point, you may as well be citing the Funimation dub. They're pretty irrelevant in telling us what Toriyama, Toei, Shuiesha, etc ever intended. Unless the info originates in Japan, it's pretty insignificant. I don't see any reason to count anything that only comes from the franchise's IP holders in other countries.

[daniel1]

I gotta say there's no reason to include any info that comes straight from Funimation

I agree with you. I only included them because I've seen people cite them online for this debate and my goal was to address every point that exists in English arguments. I also only included Le Manga de Légende for the same reason, as El Manga Legendario is frequently cited. At the very least, I think I can change the tally to remove the points given by Funimation. Off-hand, I believe my Broly and Janemba deep dives use non-Japanese sources much more sparingly.

[DanielSSJ]

The different versions of the Legendary Manga are at least based on some unpublished Japanese text, so I think it's fair to at least consider them (certainly over an English dub famous for making shit up from wholecloth)

[coola]

Personally, i'd say Kid Buu is not strongest, but most dangerous, very temporary, but you could buy time or reason with Buuhan, use his pride against him, Kid Buu is just pure evil who want destruction and chaos.

[Kid Buu]

See, Kid Buu is stronger, take that!

All jokes aside, it seems Kid struggled a bit with Fat Buu but Evil Buu (Grey) dominated the Fat Buu. So I question if Kid Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, let alone Gohan Buu.

[PhantomSaiyan]

All jokes aside, it seems Kid struggled a bit with Fat Buu but Evil Buu (Grey) dominated the Fat Buu. So I question if Kid Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, let alone Gohan Buu.

Well if Kid Buu himself says so, then it's official

Jokes aside, I agree with you, logic obviously dictates that Buuhan is stronger. You gotta do some serious leaps in logic to ever say that Kid Buu is the strongest, like this thread shows, and take non canon material written by non Toriyama people instead of the actual manga.

And even then, that material has to be morphed and interpreted in such a way that makes Kid Buu appear like the strongest. I'll never understand this obsession with trying to "prove" this point

[Kid Buu]

All jokes aside, it seems Kid struggled a bit with Fat Buu but Evil Buu (Grey) dominated the Fat Buu. So I question if Kid Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, let alone Gohan Buu.

Well if Kid Buu himself says so, then it's official

Jokes aside, I agree with you, logic obviously dictates that Buuhan is stronger. You gotta do some serious leaps in logic to ever say that Kid Buu is the strongest, like this thread shows, and take non canon material written by non Toriyama people instead of the actual manga.

And even then, that material has to be morphed and interpreted in such a way that makes Kid Buu appear like the strongest. I'll never understand this obsession with trying to "prove" this point

Well, the anime does say Kid Buu is the strongest, which is where I think the confusion comes from. The manga makes no such claim, so just a claim of Toei gonna Toei.

[Supaman9g]

I gotta say there's no reason to include any info that comes straight from Funimation

I agree with you. I only included them because I've seen people cite them online for this debate and my goal was to address every point that exists in English arguments. I also only included Le Manga de Légende for the same reason, as El Manga Legendario is frequently cited. At the very least, I think I can change the tally to remove the points given by Funimation. Off-hand, I believe my Broly and Janemba deep dives use non-Japanese sources much more sparingly.

My dear Dan,
Your entire Gish gallop was debunked on page 2 of this thread.

viewtopic.php?t=49350&sid=6e8fa7aa67afa ... 6&start=20

On the other hand, I congratulate you on the world record for the length of your Gish gallop. Really.
We rarely see anything like it.

[Supaman9g]

All jokes aside, it seems Kid struggled a bit with Fat Buu but Evil Buu (Grey) dominated the Fat Buu. So I question if Kid Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, let alone Gohan Buu.

Well if Kid Buu himself says so, then it's official

Jokes aside, I agree with you, logic obviously dictates that Buuhan is stronger. You gotta do some serious leaps in logic to ever say that Kid Buu is the strongest, like this thread shows, and take non canon material written by non Toriyama people instead of the actual manga.

And even then, that material has to be morphed and interpreted in such a way that makes Kid Buu appear like the strongest. I'll never understand this obsession with trying to "prove" this point

Well, the anime does say Kid Buu is the strongest, which is where I think the confusion comes from. The manga makes no such claim, so just a claim of Toei gonna Toei.

Here is my private exchange with Takao Koyama, which we will soon publish on a French website dedicated to Dragon Ball. This is an exchange in Japanese that I am translating into English for you.
Of course, I still have the original exchange, which will be published on the website.

Supaman: “Hello Koyama-sensei. The anime adaptation of Dragon Ball often featured notable differences from the original manga, particularly regarding character management and power scaling. An iconic example is the depiction of Kid Buu. In Toriyama-sensei’s manga, Kid Buu is described as an incarnation of pure chaos, but it is never explicitly stated that he is the most powerful form of Buu. However, in the Z anime fillers written by Mr. Hiroshi Toda, it is suggested that Kid Buu is indeed the strongest form, surpassing the other versions of Buu, including Super Buu with Gohan absorbed. This discrepancy seems to stem from the production conditions at the time.
The anime staff received drafts of Toriyama-sensei’s unfinished chapters via fax, often moving forward without a clear vision of how the story would end. You have stated yourself that these constraints led to inconsistencies, and that you sometimes wrote without knowing future developments, such as the heroes transforming into Super Saiyans.
Question:
In the scripts written by Mr. Hiroshi Toda and supervised by you for the Z anime, Kid Buu is described as the most powerful form of Buu. However, this seems to contradict Toriyama-sensei’s vision in the manga, where this superiority is not explicitly established. Was this an intentional decision by the staff, or a simple inconsistency due to a lack of information and the simultaneous production of the anime and the manga's publication? Was this interpretation meant to add suspense for the anime viewers, or did it reflect a misunderstanding of Toriyama’s intentions?”

Takao Koyama: “Regarding considering this as an inconsistency because future developments were not clearly defined, one could say that is probably valid.”

[PhantomSaiyan]

Takao Koyama: “Regarding considering this as an inconsistency because future developments were not clearly defined, one could say that is probably valid.”

Crazy that we got to the point where you had to ask an actual writer of the show, when using our brain and common sense already gives us the very obvious answer, but I'm glad you did it

[Kid Buu]

Well, in that case it was needed because the anime did say Kid was strongest.

If it were up to me I'd have it directly stated that Buu's power went down but I think it should have been a trait for Kid Buu that anyone that dies fighting him in combat just vanishes from existence rather than die (via some Bibidi magic hax).

Like Goku and Vegeta destroy potara, saying they can just abuse being in the afterlife to win, and than Kabito Kai reveals this plot twist. It makes Kid Buu the most dangerous villain without being strongest.

[DanielSSJ]

Well, in that case it was needed because the anime did say Kid was strongest.

If it were up to me I'd have it directly stated that Buu's power went down but I think it should have been a trait for Kid Buu that anyone that dies fighting him in combat just vanishes from existence rather than die (via some Bibidi magic hax).

Like Goku and Vegeta destroy potara, saying they can just abuse being in the afterlife to win, and than Kabito Kai reveals this plot twist. It makes Kid Buu the most dangerous villain without being strongest.

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

[Supaman9g]

Takao Koyama: “Regarding considering this as an inconsistency because future developments were not clearly defined, one could say that is probably valid.”

Crazy that we got to the point where you had to ask an actual writer of the show, when using our brain and common sense already gives us the very obvious answer, but I'm glad you did it

Thank you. Yes, it’s sad that it has to come to this. But just look at the sheer size of our friend Dan's Gish gallop.
If we listen to him, we'd have to read the longest Gish gallop in history just to understand a manga that was meant to be a simple, straightforward story for primary school children.

[Kid Buu]

Well, in that case it was needed because the anime did say Kid was strongest.

If it were up to me I'd have it directly stated that Buu's power went down but I think it should have been a trait for Kid Buu that anyone that dies fighting him in combat just vanishes from existence rather than die (via some Bibidi magic hax).

Like Goku and Vegeta destroy potara, saying they can just abuse being in the afterlife to win, and than Kabito Kai reveals this plot twist. It makes Kid Buu the most dangerous villain without being strongest.

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

Wow I love that. I'd definitely feel like that would help raise the states while not sacrificing characterization too much.

[DanielSSJ]

It'd also work around the whole "if you die while dead, you cease to exist" which while not necessarily a problem, does feel unnecessarily bleak for the afterlife.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Well, in that case it was needed because the anime did say Kid was strongest.

The anime does a lot of things, since when did we start believing them? The list of contradictions the anime created is endless

It's always been accepted that the Toei filler is just Toei filler, except for the fraction of people that held on to that Kid Buu line for dear life

If we listen to him, we'd have to read the longest Gish gallop in history just to understand a manga that was meant to be a simple, straightforward story for primary school children.

Exactly, perfectly said

[Koitsukai]

It was always a contradiction within itself, Goku claims Kid Buu is the strongest... while fighting him as a SS2.

[Kid Buu]

It was always a contradiction within itself, Goku claims Kid Buu is the strongest... while fighting him as a SS2.

You know I've never actually minded this (the fight, not the line about Buu being strongest). It always just seemed like the SS2 Goku portion of the fight was a warm up than an actual fight, as neither side seems to be taking any real damage.

Then again, maybe I'm biased as the SS2 Goku Vs. Kid Buu battle is my favourite fight.