Why are Beast and ''Ultra Instinct'' the same color?

[PhantomSaiyan]

Exactly. So apply this answer to the thread topic and you got your answer.


Different trees can have leaves of the same color, or similar colors. There's really nothing lore-breaking or "wrong" with Beast and UI sharing a similar color. You might think it's lame and redundant, but from a writing perspective, there's no issue.

You might be looking for a deep explanation, but sometimes it's just a coincidence.

Yeah I agree with you on that, there's no point in looking for deeper connections here

[SupremeKai25]

Exactly. So apply this answer to the thread topic and you got your answer.


Different trees can have leaves of the same color, or similar colors. There's really nothing lore-breaking or "wrong" with Beast and UI sharing a similar color. You might think it's lame and redundant, but from a writing perspective, there's no issue.

You might be looking for a deep explanation, but sometimes it's just a coincidence.

Yeah I agree with you on that, there's no point in looking for deeper connections here

Well, there might be a connection - a very faint one - between Gohan and Goku. If Super Saiyan Beast is building on Ultimate, then it would make sense that it has a similar color to UI because they would both be divine forms. UI from the Angels and Ultimate/Beast from the Kaioshin. That's the most popular headcanon as far as I've seen. I've read this headcanon several times over the years, people connecting Beast to Ultimate and thus to the Kaioshin. It's something to think about.

The Destroyers (Beerus, Top, Vegeta) having a different color entirely might be because Destroyers, unlike Kaioshin and Angels, are originally mortals from the mortal plane.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Well, there might be a connection - a very faint one - between Gohan and Goku. If Super Saiyan Beast is building on Ultimate, then it would make sense that it has a similar color to UI because they would both be divine forms. UI from the Angels and Ultimate/Beast from the Kaioshin. That's the most popular headcanon as far as I've seen.

The Destroyers (Beerus, Top, Vegeta) having a different color entirely might be because Destroyers, unlike Kaioshin and Angels, are originally mortals from the mortal plane.

That's actually a really good theory, I hadn't considered that, but it'd make sense.

If I remember correctly it was mentioned somewhere, either the games or an interview, that Beast is built upon or at least influenced by the Ultimate form, if that's the case, it's a good way of looking at it.

Of course, it remains to be proven if the writers thought of it or if it's a happy accident

[Zebra]

It's explicitly said that Beast isn't divine.



The theory that it's supposed to make Gohan in any way like a Kaioushin never made any sense. Not to mention, Gohan's Ultimate form (and by extension, Beast) isn't actually linked to Kaioushin, but rather the witch Elder Kaioushin merged with. It's only thanks to the witch that Elder Kaioushin is able to draw out Gohan's dormant ability beyond its limit.

[SupremeKai25]

It's explicitly said that Beast isn't divine.

The theory that it's supposed to make Gohan in any way like a Kaioushin never made any sense. Not to mention, Gohan's Ultimate form (and by extension, Beast) isn't actually linked to Kaioushin, but rather the witch Elder Kaioushin merged with. It's only thanks to the witch that Elder Kaioushin is able to draw out Gohan's dormant ability beyond its limit.

This doesn't really change the theory. Even if it's not divine, Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate. That is a technique unique to Gohan and it would make sense to be inspired by Ultimate if you're designing a Super Saiyan form tailor-made for Gohan.

[Zebra]

It's explicitly said that Beast isn't divine.

The theory that it's supposed to make Gohan in any way like a Kaioushin never made any sense. Not to mention, Gohan's Ultimate form (and by extension, Beast) isn't actually linked to Kaioushin, but rather the witch Elder Kaioushin merged with. It's only thanks to the witch that Elder Kaioushin is able to draw out Gohan's dormant ability beyond its limit.

This doesn't really change the theory. Even if it's not divine, Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate.

Ultimate isn't divine, either. You think it is because it was granted to Gohan by a Kaioushin, but Elder Kaioushin's special powers only come from the witch he merged with. Nothing about Ultimate is actually Kaioushin-related.

[SupremeKai25]

It's explicitly said that Beast isn't divine.

The theory that it's supposed to make Gohan in any way like a Kaioushin never made any sense. Not to mention, Gohan's Ultimate form (and by extension, Beast) isn't actually linked to Kaioushin, but rather the witch Elder Kaioushin merged with. It's only thanks to the witch that Elder Kaioushin is able to draw out Gohan's dormant ability beyond its limit.

This doesn't really change the theory. Even if it's not divine, Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate.

Ultimate isn't divine, either. You think it is because it was granted to Gohan by a Kaioushin, but Elder Kaioushin's special powers only come from the witch he merged with. Nothing about Ultimate is actually Kaioushin-related.

Again, I'm no longer saying it's divine. I dropped that point. It's not important. I'm just saying Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate, another Gohan-related form, to make a new Gohan-related Super Saiyan form.

[Zebra]

This doesn't really change the theory. Even if it's not divine, Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate.

Ultimate isn't divine, either. You think it is because it was granted to Gohan by a Kaioushin, but Elder Kaioushin's special powers only come from the witch he merged with. Nothing about Ultimate is actually Kaioushin-related.

Again, I'm no longer saying it's divine. I dropped that point. It's not important. I'm just saying Toriyama might have been inspired by Ultimate, another Gohan-related form, to make a new Gohan-related Super Saiyan form.

What does that have to do with its color? If it's based on Ultimate, you'd think it'd be black.

[angeldreamZ004]

Just a reminder tho that I personally never considered it to be a divine transformation or something like that. The fact that it lacks the god ki tag in the mobile games speaks for itself.
In regards to its link to Kaioshin, I think it makes sense for what I said before, but I'll repeat with some clarifications.

1-Gohan had his power awakened from the contact with a Kaioshin. It was never my point to consider the witch thing because I think it doesn't really matter as it's not about where Ro Kaioshin got that power from, but who gave that power to Gohan, and regardless of it, it was a Kaioshin, fusing with a witch didn't make Ro Kaioshin a non-Kaioshin as far as I know, he was still a Kaioshin, thus, who awakened Gohan's power was a Kaioshin, that's my point.

2-Gohan trained with a Kaioshin, and he was literally the only character to do such thing in the present timeline, and he's conveniently the only one to get that unique transformation misteriously. The only other character in the series who trained with Kaioshin was Trunks in the future timeline, and he got some Kaioshin abilities from that training. So my theory is that Power Boost from Ro Kaioshin + Training with Kaioshin must've given something else to Gohan other than just his Ultimate form.

Another thing is that my hypothesis didn't rely solely on the Original Series or Super. In my first post in the thread I also mentioned Daima, as one of the aspects I really liked about that series is how it tells where the Kaioshin come from, and it was revealed to be the Makai, which is also where the Namekuseijins came from.
In order to become SSJ4, Goku needed a power boost from a Namekuseijin. Daima SSJ4 also "looks like a beast", also has red eyes, also lacks god ki but originates from the contact with supernatural entities.
So my hypothesis also considers that SSJ Beast (I really liked this name) is some kind of equivalent to SSJ4, but originated from Kaioshin contact rather than Namekuseijin contact.

SSJGod has red eyes too, but for me this is because each transformation is a distinct entry in different separate supernatural evolutions, it's at least how I see each new transformation in the modern era of the series. (UI being some kind of evolution to SSJG to my understanding, as it has god ki too. If I apply this to Gohan, his Ultimate Form could be equivalent to SSJG, while Beast is his equivalent to UI)
Basically:

SSJG = Ritual / God Ki Training
UI = Training with Angel
UE = Training with Hakaishin
DSSJ4 = Power Boost from Namekuseijin
Beast = Power Boost from + Training with Kaioshin

(I ignored SSJ Blue because it's just SSJG + SSJ, though it requires training too)

Edit: and even if we discard anything Kaoshin related, Goha back then still got another power boost originating from a Namekuseijin. Though I personally think that if this counts, Beast is more likely the result of a mix between that power boost + Training and Power Boost from Kaioshin.

[Yuji]

Why would two completely different forms be the same color?

Why wouldn't they?

If you want to be pedantic about Kaioken, then UI isn't a transformation either.

Again, the two forms have different attributes besides colour and they're not even the same hue anyway.

Plus if any two characters are to share the same hair colour it'd better be father and son.

[Zebra]

Why would two completely different forms be the same color?

Why wouldn't they?

If you want to be pedantic about Kaioken, then UI isn't a transformation either.

Again, the two forms have different attributes besides colour and they're not even the same hue anyway.

Plus if any two characters are to share the same hair colour it'd better be father and son.

Because that defeats the purpose of them being different.

It clearly is one for Gokuu. Kaiouken doesn't actually change Gokuu's physical appearance.

The color is the main attribute.

Not when they're using different forms.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

Because that defeats the purpose of them being different.

It clearly is one for Gokuu. Kaiouken doesn't actually change Gokuu's physical appearance.

The color is the main attribute.

Not when they're using different forms.

To say this I think you're giving a hyperfocus to the hair. It's not like as if a "UI Gohan" wouldn't be any different from Beast in design. Beast still gives him a different hair style and eye colors. UI Goku gives Goku white eyes and barely changes his hair style.

Whether it's good or not it's a different discussion as I could write about a huge contrast I have with a big part of the Dragon Ball fanbase. If we discuss that we won't really get anywhere because it depends purely on your liking, a lot of fans love how SSJ3 and SSJ4 look so different, but I personally enjoy the new forms introduced in Super a lot more as they invest less in drastic changes in appearance and offer more distinct and unique power traits and concepts, and I'm not fan of how SSJ3 & 4 change the appearance too much, so you can already figure out my taste only by this, opposites will think the new forms are meaningless and that's the way it is, not much can be done about. I personally have no issue with Beast having the same hair color as MUI as the few other design details and power feats are more than enough for me to distinguish them personally (and if Toyotaro confirms my headcanon I would really like it)

Also, I know you didn't write about other forms or that this is exclusive to Beast, but I'll still say it in just case. We also have more examples with other forms. Both in GT and Daima there are SSJ4 with Red Hair, just like SSJGod. Broly Ikari has black hair and yellow eyes just like GT SSJ4 Goku. The differences are the fur around the body, hair styles and a few other small details like the border of the eyes. Also Trunks in Modern Era (mostly in Manga) having blue hair just like SSJB, the differences being hair style and pupils.

There were also a few cases back in the 90s such as Broly in the second movie having yellow hair for his LSSJ form, making his transformation and Trunks' SSJ Dai San Dankai look very similar to each other. And also most forms not having different hair colors, which led to a confusion in the Boo arc where there are moments we don't know a character is supposed to be SSJ1 or 2 like Gohan vs Dabura.

[Zebra]

To say this I think you're giving a hyperfocus to the hair. It's not like as if a "UI Gohan" wouldn't be any different from Beast in design. Beast still gives him a different hair style and eye colors. UI Goku gives Goku white eyes and barely changes his hair style.

A transformation's hairstyle varies depending on the character using it. Gohan Beast just looks like a person with long, upward-standing hair turned "UI".

It's not "hyperfocus" when the hair color is the most noticeable aspect of these transformations. The eye color is minor.

We also have more examples with other forms. Both in GT and Daima there are SSJ4 with Red Hair, just like SSJGod. Broly Ikari has black hair and yellow eyes just like GT SSJ4 Goku.

Different continuities. Not that the confusion doesn't exist, but it's not as jarring looking at the context.

The differences are the fur around the body, hair styles and a few other small details like the border of the eyes. Also Trunks in Modern Era (mostly in Manga) having blue hair just like SSJB, the differences being hair style and pupils.

Trunks naturally has blue hair, or dyes it blue. As jarring as it is for him to resemble SSB in base form, there's a given or implied reason for it. There's no reason for "UI" and Beast to resemble each other.

There were also a few cases back in the 90s such as Broly in the second movie having yellow hair for his LSSJ form, making his transformation and Trunks' SSJ Dai San Dankai look very similar to each other.

At the end of the day, they're both Super Saiyan forms, so there's some logic in them resembling each other. Same thing with other Super Saiyans resembling each other; they all fall under the same basic transformation.

"UI" and Beast are supposed to be completely different transformations.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

To say this I think you're giving a hyperfocus to the hair. It's not like as if a "UI Gohan" wouldn't be any different from Beast in design. Beast still gives him a different hair style and eye colors. UI Goku gives Goku white eyes and barely changes his hair style.

A transformation's hairstyle varies depending on the character using it. Gohan Beast just looks like a person with long, upward-standing hair turned "UI".

It's not "hyperfocus" when the hair color is the most noticeable aspect of these transformations. The eye color is minor.

We also have more examples with other forms. Both in GT and Daima there are SSJ4 with Red Hair, just like SSJGod. Broly Ikari has black hair and yellow eyes just like GT SSJ4 Goku.

Different continuities. Not that the confusion doesn't exist, but it's not as jarring looking at the context.

The differences are the fur around the body, hair styles and a few other small details like the border of the eyes. Also Trunks in Modern Era (mostly in Manga) having blue hair just like SSJB, the differences being hair style and pupils.

Trunks naturally has blue hair, or dyes it blue. As jarring as it is for him to resemble SSB in base form, there's a given or implied reason for it. There's no reason for "UI" and Beast to resemble each other.

There were also a few cases back in the 90s such as Broly in the second movie having yellow hair for his LSSJ form, making his transformation and Trunks' SSJ Dai San Dankai look very similar to each other.

At the end of the day, they're both Super Saiyan forms, so there's some logic in them resembling each other. Same thing with other Super Saiyans resembling each other; they all fall under the same basic transformation.

"UI" and Beast are supposed to be completely different transformations.

I meant to write "hair color" not just "hair" but it went incomplete for some reason so my bad. But the reason I think it's giving a hyperfocus is because of what I said previously that it's subjective on what you consider most important in these transformations.
For example, there aren't only the examples I gave before, but there are also the differences in aura. I don't consider the eyes to be a minor difference. When we see Beast for the first time in the movie, we have a slow full look on his design, and after showing the hair, the camera focuses on the eyes last, almost identical to what was done with MUI in the anime but with the difference that MUI's full body is seen first then the zoom in the eye.

Also the point of my comparison with UI was that UI would not give a similar hairstyle to Beast in any way unless the user already had the same hair style in base form, with the same enormous size and length.
The Hair style matters more than the hair color in the case of this transformation, I think it's at least what Toriyama implied with his comment on it, where he doesn't talk about the color at all (except for pale skin in an early design, which could be the reason the hair color is the way it is) but emphasises how long and upward the hair looks. So it seems that was the most important for him.

I believe the problem here is that with the previous transformations’ hair color, it gave the impression that there was a “rule”, but Toriyama not really thinking about I think shows how it was more of a pattern where Gohan's transformation became an exception (and maybe Daima SSJ4 as well, though you can use the different continuity argument like you did.)

[Zephyr]

Yeah, there's no special reason why Beast and Ultra Instinct both give the characters white/grey/silver hair. Just kinda arbitrary, like many things in this series.

Ultra Instinct is an angel technique, so it's got the angel's hair color, makes enough sense. Beast is not an angelic state, nor is it even divine. As has been pointed out, Ultimate isn't rooted in Kaioshin abilities, but in those of a witch. But more importantly, Beast isn't rooted in Ultimate. Toriyama said this about what the form is:

Gohan has achieved his own unique evolution, based off the sort of awakenings he had as a boy. I've even named this transformation "Son Gohan Beast", in the sense that the wild beast within him has awakened.

Gohan's "awakenings" as a boy were tied to rage and anger. If this is based off of those, then it is a state rooted in rage and anger. That is wholly unrelated to the abilities of a witch.

For the design, he said:

For the design, I tried drawing him with a scary face and pale skin, but somehow this didn't feel like Gohan. So instead I just gave him the usual big upturned hair...

One of Gohan's "awakenings" as a boy was when he turned Super Saiyan 2. That's arguably his most iconic and memorable "awakening". So it makes sense that Beast, meant to be rooted in the "awakenings", would copy that exact iconography (this is also commercially very convenient lol).

But real quick I want to wildly speculate and make shit up that clearly wasn't in Toriyama's mind while making these comments, because they kind of invite this idea. What if Beast looks like Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan because both states are rooted in rage and anger? Yes, obviously, anger is typically a major feature of Super Saiyan transformations, but only as the trigger, and not really the source of the power. What I'm suggesting then is that during the Cell Games, Gohan was using both Super Saiyan 2 and a sort of "Beast -Sign-", at the same time (as many characters often use two transformations at once). An interesting idea for fanfiction lore, perhaps.

---

Unrelated to Beast, but thinking about Ultimate and the witch again. I think Daima's lore additions retroactively make the parallels between Ultimate and the Grand Elder's potential unlocking abilities (and Bobbidi's) less coincidental. Namekians and Kaioshin (as Glind) both originate from the Demon Realm. "Demon" of course being one end of the definitional spectrum that the term ma (魔) contains. The other end is "Magic". People in the Demon Realm, Majin, use magic. Thus, Namekians and Kaioshin, Majin, are magic users. Bobbidi, his father, and the witch (I'm pretty sure) lack pointed ears, so they aren't Majin of the Demon Realm, but they are all clearly magic users.

All that to say, what the Namekian Grand Elder does, what Bobbidi does, what the half-witch Elder Kaioshin does, and what Shenlong does are all a great big load of 魔. That makes Piccolo giving Gohan a gi with that very kanji on it kind of retroactively hilarious. Now I want Ultimate Gohan to have that kanji on the orange gi.

[Zebra]

One of Gohan's "awakenings" as a boy was when he turned Super Saiyan 2. That's arguably his most iconic and memorable "awakening". So it makes sense that Beast, meant to be rooted in the "awakenings", would copy that exact iconography (this is also commercially very convenient lol).

Out of universe, we know it's inspired by his child SS2 form, which is the basis for its hairstyle. But in-universe, it doesn't actually have anything to do with SS2 as it's not a Super Saiyan form. It's clearly supposed to be an evolution of Ultimate. That's why Gohan was in his Ultimate form when he unlocked it.

[angeldreamZ004]

It's clearly supposed to be an evolution of Ultimate. That's why Gohan was in his Ultimate form when he unlocked it.

But aside from Ultimate being the previous form he uses in the movie, there's no indication that Beast has connection to Ultimate. Remember in the Moro arc in the manga when Goku as a SSJGod gets his energy drained, and then reverts to SSJ3? That doesn't mean SSJG is a evolution of SSJ3.
In the Super Hero epilogue arc, Gohan goes straight up from base form to Beast. Sure you can argue that this is just him skipping the Ultimate Form, but I don't think the moment he transformed for the first time is proof that it's supposed to be a evolution of Ultimate just because it was the form he was using before the awakening.

When the new forms are the "next phase" of a previously seen one, we'll normally see the character going through all levels before reaching the final stage, Goku did that multiple times with the SSJ forms, sometimes you'll see him jumping straight from base to SSJ2, but other times you'll also see SSJ1-2-Then 3.
I know he (and Vegeta) jumps from base form to SSJB multiple times (especially in the anime), but that is because SSJB is not exactly a evolution of SSJG, as it's just SSJ1 + God Ki, so makes sense why we often don't see him going through SSJG first.

I think the only stronger indication that it's a evolution of Ultimate is the way the movie treats Piccolo's new transformation, with his yellow form being like his equivalent to Ultimate, while Orange is the evolution of that, so his equivalent to Beast. But the movie is clear with that, with Beast I feel it's too vague, both in-universe and with Toriyama's comment on it.

Unrelated to Beast, but thinking about Ultimate and the witch again. I think Daima's lore additions retroactively make the parallels between Ultimate and the Grand Elder's potential unlocking abilities (and Bobbidi's) less coincidental. Namekians and Kaioshin (as Glind) both originate from the Demon Realm. "Demon" of course being one end of the definitional spectrum that the term ma (魔) contains. The other end is "Magic". People in the Demon Realm, Majin, use magic. Thus, Namekians and Kaioshin, Majin, are magic users. Bobbidi, his father, and the witch (I'm pretty sure) lack pointed ears, so they aren't Majin of the Demon Realm, but they are all clearly magic users.
All that to say, what the Namekian Grand Elder does, what Bobbidi does, what the half-witch Elder Kaioshin does, and what Shenlong does are all a great big load of 魔.

This pretty much sums up why I made my headcanon. And if you think about the other form, SSJ4, which has a even more bestial appearance, was also awakened by one of these beings. I can't do anything but immediately think that there could be a connection.
Also Orange Piccolo who originated from Shenlong's ritual, also got red eyes, all these forms that are entries into non-conventional evolutions share the same eye color.

[Zebra]

The only time Gohan transformed from base straight to Beast was when he saw Magenta again. That was probably because he was pissed to see him.

Right before turning Beast to fight Gokuu, Gohan briefly turned Ultimate.




He's also Ultimate right before he transforms against Broly.




The intent is probably that Gohan can skip Ultimate and go straight to Beast when he gets really mad, but he needs to turn Ultimate when he's composed.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think you can argue either way given the diversity in presentation. To transform for the first time he had to get angry in Ultimate form. In this case you could say that he trained off-screen in order to control the form better, which is why we see him doing the soft transformation with no explanation.
If he has to turn Ultimate before turning Beast "without anger" (he still does intense scream), I can connect to what I said before about Orange Piccolo, where his Potential Awakaned form is supposed to be "his Ultimate form" while Orange is equivalent to Beast. His transformation didn't need to be awakened through anger.
Gohan obviously must have his specifications though. The bottom right of that second page suggests that he still "loses his mind" when transforming, as you can see in his eyes and facial expression.

[Zephyr]

It's clearly supposed to be an evolution of Ultimate. That's why Gohan was in his Ultimate form when he unlocked it.

On the one hand....
Toriyama had every opportunity to mention Ultimate when explaining what he had in mind with Beast, and he didn't. I don't think it's clear in that panel that Gohan is briefly Ultimate while powering up to Beast. And I don't think that using a weaker form before a stronger form necessarily means that the weaker form is the foundation of that stronger form.

For instance, Goku starting out a fight in Blue before turning on Ultra Instinct wouldn't mean that the latter is rooted in the former, it would mean that he started the fight at one level of strength and decided partway through the fight that a higher level was needed. And if I remember correctly, Gohan goes from Super Saiyan to Ultimate in the film, and I don't think anyone's going to try to argue that Ultimate is rooted in Super Saiyan.

But on the other hand....
Maybe Ultimate is rooted in Super Saiyan, at least in part? In the manga, the Elder Kaioshin tells Gohan to power up like he's turning into a Super Saiyan in order to turn Ultimate on. Not to mention this page from Supplemental Daizenshuu: TV Animation Part 3 places Ultimate in with the Super Saiyan forms. So maybe Ultimate is both 魔 and Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 魔. Super Saiyan Ma. Super Saiyan Magic. Super Saiyan Demon.

And if we make all of those moves, then it wouldn't be weird at all for Beast to be rooted in both rage/anger and Ultimate. Which would mean Beast is rooted in rage/anger, and 魔, and Super Saiyan. Which makes it looking like a Super Saiyan form make that much more sense.