Dragonball Movie Update! What is UP with this?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Post by JulieYBM » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:04 pm

Raki wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:I hear you brother. It's those sort of dub fans that make the moderates like me (who would easily admit FUNimation's changes are pretty stupid) but still tend to just want to watch the show in English with proper scripts and stuff.

It is funny though, if not also annoying.
I'm one that would accept an accurate dub with Funi's voices as well, but don't ever see it happening. Funi is almost proud of their DBZ work, and they don't care on improving.
Well, that's more or less a product of both time and money. Seemingly, Schemmel was too busy to stay in Texas long enough to rerecord his lines in any fashion and doing so also requires a large sum of money that FUNimation would rather spend on something else.

As for the film, I would rather Dragonball be a failure as it is, a colorful, off-beat, series with a dog as king o' the world. I mean, Narnia and TLoTR got away with what they did and if the film's going to be aimed at a PG audience it may as well play it up.
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Post by Kaboom » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:11 pm

The general idea seems to be that Grandpa Gohan has been substituted for Kuririn in this version of the story. I think the point that Xyex was trying to make is that it's much easier to use a character like Gohan, whom Goku will already, almost by default, have a good relationship with. With Kuririn, it'd be harder to introduce him and/or build him up enough for his death to make an impact, within the 2 hours the movie allows. Gohan dying has an impact just because he's the Grandpa. He doesn't NEED to have his character built up for it to be impactful.

In contrast, assuming Kuririn is introduced in the second movie, then killed by Freeza in the third, that's two whole movies worth of time for Goku and the audience to get to know and like him. Then bam, he's dead, and it's just as, if not more, significant and impactful an incident as Gohan's death was.

Besides, having the same character die twice within a short series of movies, it's not going to have as much impact the second time around. If anything, it needs to have MORE behind it the second time.

Plus what JAPPO said (minus about Speed Racer; that movie was SICK) while I was typing this. Kuririn's cool, and he shouldn't be entirely omitted, but he's not crucial to THIS movie. I agree; let's save some of the good stuff for the sequels.
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Post by Kendamu » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:03 pm

Xyex wrote: Laaaaaaaaaaaaame.
That's quite a detailed argument you have there.
30 second exposition does not a bond make. You need to display the bond and you can not do that in 15 minutes or less and expect the audience to give a shit.
Oh! Here it is!

That's why you have the rest of the movie for them to hang out and actually be best friends. Its not like you say, "This is my best friend," and then omit him from the rest of the movie until the very end. He's going to be there the whole time.

Just look at Spider-Man as an example. Its established rather quickly that Peter and Harry are friends and it works even without the 4.5 hours you think is necessary for the stupid people of Planet America to even start to comprehend what the Hell a "friend" is.
Alright. But, why is Goku even running into Piccolo? If Krillin's not dead why is Goku out there getting in Piccolo's way?
Do you not expect them to not face off against the villain in the movie? Krillin or not, Goku and Piccolo are going to fight. In my version, Krillin happens to be there.
Yeah... that'd be even worse than replacing Master Roshi with Bulma. >>
This is coming from the guy who has to ask me why Piccolo and Goku are going to fight each other in a movie called "Dragonball" that adapts the Piccolo Daimao arc... :roll:

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Post by Captain Awesome » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:07 am

There is absolutely no good reason for omitting Kuririn from this movie.

Shit, lets say the movie is an hour and a half long, is there any reason Kuririn can't die 45 minutes to an hour into that movie?

@Xyex

The majority of relationships (save romantic ones) in movies today are actually implied through character actions, a movie like this has to be plot driven, not character driven, you're acting like it's impossible to convey friendship without an hour of hardcore character development.

It's really as simple as having them meet, have a little rivalry, perhaps reach some kind of understanding, throw a year's timeskip in there (training under Muten Roshi) with a cute montage, and then throw them into some sort of dilemma and letting their actions (such as watching each others backs/friendly dialog) communicate to the audience that they have indeed become close friends.

And with that simple recipie folks, you have an on-screen friendship.

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Post by Daburcor » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:25 am

Captain Awesome wrote:The majority of relationships (save romantic ones) in movies today are actually implied through character actions, a movie like this has to be plot driven, not character driven, you're acting like it's impossible to convey friendship without an hour of hardcore character development.

It's really as simple as having them meet, have a little rivalry, perhaps reach some kind of understanding, throw a year's timeskip in there (training under Muten Roshi) with a cute montage, and then throw them into some sort of dilemma and letting their actions (such as watching each others backs/friendly dialog) communicate to the audience that they have indeed become close friends.

And with that simple recipie folks, you have an on-screen friendship.
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Post by Chrono Trigger » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:43 am

Well if you ask me the movie already too busy as it is. Then again adding Krillin in the mix (who only really exists to die and give the plot a reason to move forward) would make the audience take "Lord Piccolo" more seriously. So they expect us to watch this and believe "Oh this dude just killed his Grandpa! He really means business!" They better have Marsters do some wild shit in this movie (which I know he probably won't) like killing random people and blowing up cities. There's a reason this guy got "sealed" for 2000 years and they better be able to sell that shit. That's a concern for this movie not Krillin. It's already been established for months that he isn't in the movie. You never see people bringing up the real issues. All we do is complain about what isn't there but sometimes you gotta look past that and see what is there. Then be overly critical, pessimistic, and complain about it. :lol:
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Post by Xyex » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:33 pm

You're kind of double talking here. First you say Kuririn isn't an important character then in the same breath you say that he is important. Kuririn is a very important character especially during this arc! Kuririn's shocking death is what caused Goku to come up against Daimao in the first place. Without Kuririn there is no hope for the movie being a faithful adaptation.
Yeah, I'm really having doubts you're reading my posts, despite your claims.

What I said was this: Krillin is important in the manga because there are years of backstory. In the movie there is 5 minutes of back story. 15 if we're lucky. And then death. No one would give a shit but the "wah, they changed my Dragonball!" people. The general public wouldn't even bat an eye.

Imagine if the first Spider-man movie had started with Peter reaching the bridge to fight Goblin and MJ had been Gwen and then died when she fell instead of being saved. Peter would be upset but would the audience give a shit? Nope. It's the same thing here.

Yes, in the manga Krillin's death spurnned Goku into his confrontation with Piccolo. In the movie it's Gohan's death. Seriously, what's the issue? The plot's still the same. Evil alien demon dude kills one of Goku's best friends, Goku goes out to kick evil alien demon dude's green ass.
I could see arguing about Yamcha being in the movie. He was barley involved during the Daimao arc. Although that really was only due to his injury, but still. Or hell even Bulma. What significant contribution did she make to the Daimao saga?
Uh, this isn't just the King Piccolo saga. This is all of Dragonball in a condensed version, ala Path to Power, but with Piccolo instead of the RRA. Where was Krillin in Path to Power? Not there. Why? Because he wasn't part of Goku's first adventure. Bulma and Yamcha are in this because they're part of the first adventure. Seriously, Krillin's appearance can wait one movie.
This is the thing I hate about most movie adaptations. Something important is almost always left out. A certain story element might be of extreme importance to you and might be inconsequential to someone else and vice-versa. Granted, it is a slippery slope that even the best have a hard time getting right
It's a lot better than the alternative. Trying to please everyone is why MK:A blows.
Oh! Here it is!

That's why you have the rest of the movie for them to hang out and actually be best friends. Its not like you say, "This is my best friend," and then omit him from the rest of the movie until the very end. He's going to be there the whole time.
....

What omit? He's DEAD. What, Goku's going to carry his corpse around for the last, like, 80% of the movie?
Just look at Spider-Man as an example. Its established rather quickly that Peter and Harry are friends and it works even without the 4.5 hours you think is necessary for the stupid people of Planet America to even start to comprehend what the Hell a "friend" is.
Yeah, sure, they established a friendship fairly quickly. But if you'll note, they waited until the second movie to deliver the blow to that friendship, and then the end of the third to kill him. What you're implying is that if he had died when Peter was bitten by the spider the audeince would have cared.
Do you not expect them to not face off against the villain in the movie? Krillin or not, Goku and Piccolo are going to fight. In my version, Krillin happens to be there.
I expect them to have a reason to face off. If Krillin is in the movie and alive why the hell would Goku give a shit?

Everyone's bitching about Krillin's lack of presence. You can not honestly tell me that people wouldn't be bitching worse I Krillin were in the movie and survived to the end instead of being the reason Goku starts on his journey.
This is coming from the guy who has to ask me why Piccolo and Goku are going to fight each other in a movie called "Dragonball" that adapts the Piccolo Daimao arc...
I'm asking why they would fight in your version since Goku would have no reason to ever leave home.
The majority of relationships (save romantic ones) in movies today are actually implied through character actions, a movie like this has to be plot driven, not character driven, you're acting like it's impossible to convey friendship without an hour of hardcore character development.
I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm implying they would need interaction of at least an hour, to give the audience time to witness their friendship, if they wanted them to care when he died.
It's really as simple as having them meet, have a little rivalry, perhaps reach some kind of understanding, throw a year's timeskip in there (training under Muten Roshi) with a cute montage, and then throw them into some sort of dilemma and letting their actions (such as watching each others backs/friendly dialog) communicate to the audience that they have indeed become close friends.

And with that simple recipie folks, you have an on-screen friendship.
And I repeat. How? He's DEAD. He's been dead since the 15 minute mark of the movie. He never meets Roshi. He never trains with Roshi. There is no montage. There's 15 minutes of "Hey Krillin." "Hey Goku." "Wanna get some lunch?" "Sure." "Yay!" *dead* "Krillin?" *still dead* "Krillin!?" *still dead* "KRILLIN!" *still dead*

Also, where the hell would they have the time to get in a year of training when Piccolo's minions are out there stealing Dragonballs and causing chaos?
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Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:27 pm

Well, if Kuririn's not going to die he's going to need some sort of best friend to hang with him through the it all. Y'know, what with Gohan supposedly taking the bullet this time around.
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Post by Kaboom » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:29 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Well, if Kuririn's not going to die he's going to need some sort of best friend to hang with him through the it all. Y'know, what with Gohan supposedly taking the bullet this time around.
That's what we've got Bulma, Yamcha, and Chi-Chi for this time around. Expecially Yamcha; let the poor guy have his time in the spotlight. We can wait for the next movie for Krillin, and the eventual Freeza movie for him to die. He'd just be dead weight in this first film.
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Post by LeprikanGT » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:40 pm

I kind of see this whole first movie as dead weight, they are "barely" sticking to any part of the story and are missing multiple charaters and have gotten many character designs wrong, not to mention the very plot line.

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Post by desirecampbell » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:53 pm

Xyex, why do you think Kuririn would be killed so quickly? You are assuming that, everyone else has seen movies where every death didn't happen in the first act.

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Post by Raki » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:10 pm

LeprikanGT wrote:I kind of see this whole first movie as dead weight, they are "barely" sticking to any part of the story and are missing multiple charaters and have gotten many character designs wrong, not to mention the very plot line.
Most of the 17 DB/Z movies don't follow the main storyline, but we all still enjoy them.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by Anonymous Friend » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:27 pm

The story of Dragon Ball has about twenty characters by the time we get to the Piccolo arc. With six or seven of them being main characters. and if we're going to merge that with a "from the biggining of the series" as well, having only four or five of these characters won't overwelm anyone at the theater. and we don't want to dilute any characters as well.

All in all, you can't compress 30 or so episodes (the first thirteen and the King Piccolo arc) and still keep everything in tact.

Also, to the person who compared keeping Krillin to the relationship between Peter Parker and Harry Osborn, Dragonball has a more from the beginning sort of story telling, while Spiderman had the more "life has been going on for some time and now something new happens" type of thing going on.
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Post by LeprikanGT » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:37 pm

IF they are going to make a DragonBall movie, I just feel that they should follow the story line.

Lets see, act 1: Goku and Chi-Chi in high school. The movie fails for me right there; we dont even see a mention of high school until the Great Saiyaman Saga.

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Post by Chrono Trigger » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:43 pm

Nothing ever really gets a word for word, panel for panel, frame for frame adaptation. It didn't happen with Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Spider-Man, Batman, Iron-man, A Series of Unfortunate Events, X-Men, and Goodfellas. All of them made significant changes in plot and didn't follow the exact storyline in their respective series so by your logic all of those movies automatically "fail".
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Post by Raki » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:44 pm

LeprikanGT wrote:IF they are going to make a DragonBall movie, I just feel that they should follow the story line.

Lets see, act 1: Goku and Chi-Chi in high school. The movie fails for me right there; we dont even see a mention of high school until the Great Saiyaman Saga.
I guess all the 17 DB/Z films fail then.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by KaiserNeko » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Raki wrote:
LeprikanGT wrote:IF they are going to make a DragonBall movie, I just feel that they should follow the story line.

Lets see, act 1: Goku and Chi-Chi in high school. The movie fails for me right there; we dont even see a mention of high school until the Great Saiyaman Saga.
I guess all the 17 DB/Z films fail then.
You know that's not even remotely what he meant... Animated movies for shows that are already animated are never retellings of the show.
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Post by Chrono Trigger » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:50 pm

KaiserNeko said: Animated movies for shows that are already animated are never retellings of the show.
Not even that 10th anniversary movie ?
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Post by Raki » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:53 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
Raki wrote:
LeprikanGT wrote:IF they are going to make a DragonBall movie, I just feel that they should follow the story line.

Lets see, act 1: Goku and Chi-Chi in high school. The movie fails for me right there; we dont even see a mention of high school until the Great Saiyaman Saga.
I guess all the 17 DB/Z films fail then.
You know that's not even remotely what he meant... Animated movies for shows that are already animated are never retellings of the show.
Dragonball's films are.
The series doesn't start with the arrival of Raditz. Stop being lazy and watch Dragonball.

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Post by Xyex » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:57 pm

desirecampbell wrote:Xyex, why do you think Kuririn would be killed so quickly? You are assuming that, everyone else has seen movies where every death didn't happen in the first act.
Uh, maybe because before the death occurs there's no plot? We already know for fact that Gohan dies near the start. How do we know this? Because Gohan's death is what starts Goku on his quest in the movie. Thusly, if it were Krillin in the movie he'd be, you guessed it, dying near the start so that Goku could start on his quest.

Also, please, someone, explain something to me. Because the more I read of this thread the more my head hurts.

Changing the story = Bad.
Keeping things the same = Good.
Including Krillin and keeping him round for the majority of the movie, despite the fact this is a change of the story = ....Good?

The hell? Am I missing something here? Am I the only one who sees the logical paradox involved in this?
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