This has probably been brought up before.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:09 pm

Who's stronger: Roshi or Mr. Satan? I might be forgetting someting but the ability to shoot ki blasts =/= overall power.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:11 pm

Roshi is much stronger in both regards.

Post by **Herms** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:16 pm

I'm not sure how on topic this is, but in DragonBall Forever Toriyama gets asked how strong Mister Satan is, and his tongue-in-cheek reponse is that he didn't feel Satan was as strong as Bob Sapp.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:27 pm

Mr.Satan is probably the strongest man in the world without surpassing his normal limits.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:46 pm

If the punching machine at the 25th Budokai can be considered a primitive Earth scouter, then Mr. Satan's at 137 and Roshi (casually sitting at home not powering any attack) 139.

Post by **Herms** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:44 pm

It seems a pretty big stretch to assume the punching machine units and the scouter units would correspond that exactly.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:49 pm

And don't the scouters measure the usable ki in a person, whereas the punching machine only measures the strength in one arm?

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:If the punching machine at the 25th Budokai can be considered a primitive Earth scouter, then Mr. Satan's at 137 and Roshi (casually sitting at home not powering any attack) 139.

Well the daizenshuu states that Goku has only a power level of 10 in the Saga of Goku. And even as an oozaru has a power level of 100, so if you want to take that as canon Satan would have to be able to defeat an Oozaru to have a power level of 137...i think he'd sooner wet his pants.

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:43 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:And don't the scouters measure the usable ki in a person, whereas the punching machine only measures the strength in one arm?

No the Scouters seem to get a base reading, because they change when a person uses a special attack. If the scouter measured the usable ki in a person then Piccolo fighting Raditz would have measured a fighting strength of 1330.

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:57 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:If the punching machine at the 25th Budokai can be considered a primitive Earth scouter, then Mr. Satan's at 137 and Roshi (casually sitting at home not powering any attack) 139.

That doesn't really work at all. Are you saying that the farmer from the first episode would only score a 5 on the punching machine?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:36 am

Well the daizenshuu states that Goku has only a power level of 10 in the Saga of Goku. And even as an oozaru has a power level of 100, so if you want to take that as canon Satan would have to be able to defeat an Oozaru to have a power level of 137...i think he'd sooner wet his pants.

I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. IMO, Goku's displays of strength with his 10 rating were the result of ki control. Subconcious though it may have been he knew how to use his ki to go beyond what is naturally, physically, possible. Meanwhile a person with a power of fifty billion who doesn't know jack about using ki would have as much trouble pushing a car as Joe Average.

So I think it's entirely feasible for Hercule to have a fairly decent ki level but still not have the power displays of that level. Perhaps not over a hundred but still larger than people often consider. Same goes with Videl, hence why she was able to fly so easily, and so well, when it was established earlier in the series the flying takes a fair amount of energy to achieve.

No the Scouters seem to get a base reading, because they change when a person uses a special attack. If the scouter measured the usable ki in a person then Piccolo fighting Raditz would have measured a fighting strength of 1330.

Ummm, why would it read a level higher than he has? Piccolo's useable level of energy at that point is only 408, period. That's it. He can focus his power to generate attacks greater than his own power reserves but his maximum power is only 408. Otherwise he'd have just fought at 1330 so that Raditz wouldn't have smacked him around like a rag doll.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:52 am

That punching machine doesn't measure battle power! Who thinks that???

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:54 am

I really don't see Mr. Satan beating Goku at the start of Dragonball.

The guy has trouble breaking tiles.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:57 am

Captain Awesome wrote:I really don't see Mr. Satan beating Goku at the start of Dragonball.

The guy has trouble breaking tiles.

Yeah, and lil' Son was carrying huge fish and breaking numerous blocks of wood daily. Talk about child labor without pay, and parents.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:06 am

Pain wrote:
Captain Awesome wrote:I really don't see Mr. Satan beating Goku at the start of Dragonball.

The guy has trouble breaking tiles.
Yeah, and lil' Son was carrying huge fish and breaking numerous blocks of wood daily. Talk about child labor without pay, and parents.

True, but the tone of the show changed a lot in between those times and Toriyama's in-universe logic was different between the two events in question.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:55 am

Xyex wrote:Meanwhile a person with a power of fifty billion who doesn't know jack about using ki would have as much trouble pushing a car as Joe Average.

Like this guy, for example.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:15 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote: True, but the tone of the show changed a lot in between those times and Toriyama's in-universe logic was different between the two events in question.

Even so, gags aside, Goku has super strength even then, Mr. Satan does not have super strength at any point.

I think everyone here is giving Mr. Satan too much credit, sure he's a strong regular guy, but we know for a fact Mr. Satan can't take a bullet, unlike Goku when he first appears.

So if we're to take the Daizenshuu power levels as fairly accurate, if Goku is a 10, whats Mr. Satan? five and a half?

Post by **Herms** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:28 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:I think everyone here is giving Mr. Satan too much credit, sure he's a strong regular guy, but we know for a fact Mr. Satan can't take a bullet, unlike Goku when he first appears.

So if we're to take the Daizenshuu power levels as fairly accurate, if Goku is a 10, whats Mr. Satan? five and a half?

Well, Daizenshuu 7 kind of treats Goku's bullet-proofness as something he has in addition to his battle power:

First Appearance: 10
He already has twice the power of an ordinary person. What’s more, his body is tough enough to repel a gun’s bullet.

And putting Mister Satan at 5.5 would make him pretty close to that farmer who Raditz kills.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:36 pm

Herms wrote: Well, Daizenshuu 7 kind of treats Goku's bullet-proofness as something he has in addition to his battle power:

I never knew that, I always thought 10 was a little low to be able to take a bullet.

Herms wrote: And putting Mister Satan at 5.5 would make him pretty close to that farmer who Raditz kills.

5.5 Is a little low, but Mr. Satan is still just a regular human, I think it would be excessive to place him any higher than a seven (and that is pushing it)

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:39 pm

I refuse to believe the Daizenshuu in its saying that Goku had only a power of ten at the beginning. Perhaps that's going against "canon", but that concept has just always bugged me. If the farmer was around five (please correct me if I'm wrong), there's no way that Goku was only a 10. And really - Grandpa Gohan did train him, at least a tiny bit. We saw at Baba's place that Gohan was a very capable fighter, and at least some of that must have gone to Goku.
Am I saying that there's the possibility that wasn't his "surpressed" state, per se? Like, he had power but only used it when truly in danger? No, I'm not. In fact, I belive that - if ten was TRULY his power level - then that would be the case.

Anyway, ON topic, Mr. Satan is strong for a normal human. I could place him just below Namu... or maybe Giran. But then again, I could be overestimating his power.