The strength of the not-so-main fighters

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:50 pm

Raki wrote:
Forgotten Hero wrote:
Storm wrote:I think you underestimate Superman.

...especially pre-crisis.
Pre-crisis? That movie on Toonami where Superman fights his own clone?
Let's just leave it at this: The only being that could tango with Pre-Crisis Superman is the Christian god.

Ok, I'm not familiar with this form/or strength of Superman, but I'll take your word for it.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:51 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote:Ok, I'm not familiar with this form/or strength of Superman, but I'll take your word for it.

I'd advise not looking up to him too much... he was kind of a dick.

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:58 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Forgotten Hero wrote:Ok, I'm not familiar with this form/or strength of Superman, but I'll take your word for it.
I'd advise not looking up to him too much... he was kind of a dick.

I don't look up to Superman, I still think he is over rated!

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:57 pm

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:37 am

I totally understand! I also I agree with your last point.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:34 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:You gotta love it when people in their blind, almost amusing hatred for an inconsequential fictitious character like Yamucha try and spin him into someone who’s completely average in every sense and weaker than even Mr. Satan.

I personally love it when people in their blind, almost amusing fanboyism for the human characters try to spin them into the betters of Ginyu or Freeza.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:47 am

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:57 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:You gotta love it when people in their blind, almost amusing hatred for an inconsequential fictitious character like Yamucha try and spin him into someone who’s completely average in every sense and weaker than even Mr. Satan.
I personally love it when people in their blind, almost amusing fanboyism for the human characters try to spin them into the betters of Ginyu or Freeza.
Was that specifically aimed at me? Because I don't recall ever doing that. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just asking for clarification. Text without vocal tone makes other people's intent difficult to pinpoint sometimes.

Nope. It was aimed at the people who get so zealous about their pet character (somewhat understandably, as the humans do get a lot of crap from other asshole fans) that they refuse to acknowledge their limitations.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:55 am

Nope. It was aimed at the people who get so zealous about their pet character (somewhat understandably, as the humans do get a lot of crap from other asshole fans) that they refuse to acknowledge their limitations.

Yeah. It's the same thing that spawns the "Broly could could defeat SSJ4 Gogeta!" comments. Even the main characters get it. Though it's less obvious with them at times you'll get the really obvious occasions of "Base Vegeta is stronger than Freeza/18/17/Perfect Cell by the Android/Cell Games/Buu Saga!" now and then.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:01 am

Hey, I was one of the ones who thinks Base Vegeta in the Buu saga could defeat Freeza. I am not telling anyone else to believe it but it makes plenty of sense to me.

Anywho, power levels are irrelevant after the Freeza saga, so no one really knows how strong anyone got in comparison to then.

What people seem to ignore is that although the human characters might not be as strong as the Saiya-jins and the Nameks and what not, they are incredible Martial Artists. Excellent techniques and strategy can go a long way. For all we know, if Goku and Krillin had the same power level, Krillin might win. The humans are solely limited by the power they can obtain, not by the techniques and abilities they can learn. I hope that made sense.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:28 pm

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Hey, I was one of the ones who thinks Base Vegeta in the Buu saga could defeat Freeza. I am not telling anyone else to believe it but it makes plenty of sense to me.

While I disagree with that and think it's highly absurd and unlikely, it's not really that stand point that I have issue with. My comment was 'progressive'. IE, I was talking about people who say base Vegeta was stronger than Freeza by the time he fought Semi-Perfect Cell, that he was stronger than 17 and 18 by the Cell Games, and that he was then stronger than Perfect Cell by the Buu Saga.

And the reason I think it's absurd for the base Saiya-jins to be anywhere near Freeza's power is, aside from the amount of power we're talking about here, it also negates the entire purpose of Super Saiya-jin. People go on about how 'a couple of kids going SSJ makes it not so legendary' but that's nothing compared to: "The entire survival of everyone hinges on obtaining an absurd level of power the likes of which no one has seen in centuries and that can only be reached by unlocking a legendary transformation few have ever obtained.... or waiting 10 years and then just smacking him around like you would any other random enemy" is much, much, much worse.

EDIT:
Damnit, Kunzait, no posting while I have the thread open and can't see it. XP

I would argue that they’re irrelevant even within the Saiya-jin and Freeza sagas seeing as how (in the Japanese version at least) they play such a minor role in the grand scheme of things and have never once served any other major storyline purpose other than to get those who rely on them killed. Or at least get their ass severely beaten to a gelatinous pulp.

Not entirely. I agree that the numbers themselves, and taking stock in the numbers as the be-all end-all outline of the battle is what is tossed aside. But the core concept behind them has been present since the start of Dragonball and persists to the end of the series. A gauge of physical power. Prior to, and again following, the appearance of the numbers this was guaged by comparison to others.

Early on it was soley through combat, feeling out the other person's power. But by the Z era they could sense powers just as easily as the scouters could read them. And comparisons are made later in the series still, such as with Dabura being compared to Cell in terms of power. The sole difference in these instances with the Z fighters is that we have no assigned number or scale system by which to compare one to the next aside from "About as strong as so-and-so" or "stronger than so-and-so" without getting down to more specific levels like the numbers did.

The numbers themselves, in terms of maximum powers, were never wrong. The problems arose when those reading the numbers took them at face value and believed that power was superior to skill.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:22 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote: Mind you this made the large majority of Superman stories (with a few rare exceptions, namely some Alan Moore stuff in the late 70’s-early 80’s) incredibly dull, monotonous, and idiotic as all hell.

Thats an incredibly disrespectful assholish statement to make. Not to mention inaccurate in many ways. When people refer to pre Crisis Superman. What they mean is Mort Weisinger Superman. Which were some incfedibly creative comics that came up with concepts that are still used today. Superman of the 70s up to Crisis was very much scaled back.

I'm willing to bet you have not read any pre Crisis Superman not written by Alan Moore.

As for the discussion about base saiyans fighting Freeza. Its easy to see how they would get that idea. When Toei had base kid Goku beat up both Cell and Frieza with ease. Which I think was stupid. But Toei developed this pathological need to turn ever non Goku character into a useless chicken weakling.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:20 pm

omegacwa wrote:For all we know, if Goku and Krillin had the same power level, Krillin might win.

No, he wouldn't. Goku is the most brilliant fighter in the series. He beat Tien when they were equal, and beat Piccolo when they were equal (twice).

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:32 pm

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:05 pm

You were the one who made the comment. Yes it was incredibly disrespectful to the creators of thoe stories.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:32 pm

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:56 pm

I said the first post was. The second one included back peddling. But the first post by itself was disrespectful.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:52 pm

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:35 pm

Rocketman wrote:
omegacwa wrote:For all we know, if Goku and Krillin had the same power level, Krillin might win.
No, he wouldn't. Goku is the most brilliant fighter in the series. He beat Tenshinhan when they were equal, and beat Piccolo when they were equal (twice).

Yeah. Unfortunately, Goku has that "always overcomes the odds" thing in these hypothetical situations. You can't get past that. Its unfair, buts it is what it is.