The Final Strength of Human Z-Fighters

[Forgotten Hero]

I believe Tenshinhan would beat Freeza if for some reason Freeza somehow returned again when 17 and Piccolo were fighting. Tenshinhan was holding down Cell (2nd form) pretty well, even though he was killing himself in the process ha ha. And Cell (2nd form) is much stronger than Freeza.

I don't think Tien could have beaten Freeza at any time but I know Freeza would have had a long and tough battle with Tien. As for Cell, Tien was only really able to slow Cell because he surprised Cell. Secondly, Tien's
Neo Kikoho drains a lot of life force, so that explains the huge power but only for a brief time.

[SSj_Rambo]

(Goku) 416 to 9000 = 2063% increase of power
(Tien) 1830 with 2063% increase = a power level of 37,752

It's a fact that Goku's power level increased about 54 points per day while training on Kaio-sama's planet. But according to your theory Tien gained 135 power level points per day. There is no way that Tien gained strength 2.5x as fast as Goku...especially since Tien started at a higher power level (so the increases must have been smaller than Goku's) and since Tien doesn't get Zenkai and since Tien just isn't a Saiya-jin.

[Drunken Master]

It was heavily eluded to after Goku and Tenshinhan nearly equal as fighters during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and yet after a few years of training Goku had far surpassed Tenshinhan despite them both having training by supernatural beings.

Goku was only at Ten's level at the 22nd because of that water he drank when he was with Yaj, Goku was trained by "God" at the 23rd Budokai, Tenshinhan did normal training, but still was powerful...But Goku was around 50% stronger than Tenshinhan when Raditz came because of his training with Kami put him up there, hard to catch up with that. Then Tenshinhan gets his Kami training, and receives a much bigger % boost in power at a higher power to even begin with, but Goku gets training with North Kaio...Do you see where am going? They never had the same training at the same time, they were equal at the 22nd, then at every instance Goku had a trump card by getting better training than him.

Tenshinhan's power would not have increased as fast because he would not have received any Zenkai. Also, we have seen that Saiya-jins are naturally more efficient trainers than Tenshinhan and the other Z Senshi.

His power would not increase during what periods of this zenkai discussion? I mean, what part of training are you reffering to?

It's a fact that Goku's power level increased about 54 points per day while training on Kaio-sama's planet. But according to your theory Tenshinhan gained 135 power level points per day. There is no way that Tenshinhan gained strength 2.5x as fast as Goku...especially since Tenshinhan started at a higher power level (so the increases must have been smaller than Goku's) and since Tenshinhan doesn't get Zenkai and since Tenshinhan just isn't a Saiya-jin.

How is it not possible? Tenshinhan started his Kami training at a higher power than Goku did, and got a waaaay bigger % increase of power, plus he trained with Kami waaaaay shorter. You can't really use logic and points for that, cause I doubt Mr. Akira did as you can see. Also, you can't get zenkai power when you're already dead, plus why would he come close to dying with a friendly master? I just see no proof that Saiyans naturally gain power faster. They use gravity training, they lived on a planet with 10x gravity, and have the zenkai power, all which don't count as normal training energy growth. And just because they have a higher level of power when comparing with someone weaker in the past, does not mean it's easier for them, IE Yamcha said he could barely move in the 10x gravity on North Kaio's planet, and Piccolo stayed there for a small amount of time, and like I said before, Nail was "astonished" at his power. The gravity made Piccolo really strong, way past 3,000 which the normal namekian warriors were at. I'd say Piccolo had to be at least double the strength of a normal namekian warrior for him to be astonished.

[SSj_Rambo]

"]Tenshinhan's power would not have increased as fast because he would not have received any Zenkai. Also, we have seen that Saiya-jins are naturally more efficient trainers than Tenshinhan and the other Z Senshi.

His power would not increase during what periods of this zenkai discussion? I mean, what part of training are you reffering to?

I'm sure that at some points whiles training under Kaio-sama Goku pushed himself to the point of "near death", which would induce a Zenkai when he healed back up.

"]It's a fact that Goku's power level increased about 54 points per day while training on Kaio-samasama's planet. But according to your theory Tenshinhan gained 135 power level points per day. There is no way that Tenshinhan gained strength 2.5x as fast as Goku...especially since Tenshinhan started at a higher power level (so the increases must have been smaller than Goku's) and since Tenshinhan doesn't get Zenkai and since Tenshinhan just isn't a Saiya-jin.

How is it not possible? Tenshinhan started his Kami training at a higher power than Goku did, and got a waaaay bigger % increase of power, plus he trained with Kami waaaaay shorter. You can't really use logic and points for that, cause I doubt Mr. Akira did as you can see. Also, you can't get zenkai power when you're already dead, plus why would he come close to dying with a friendly master? I just see no proof that Saiyans naturally gain power faster. They use gravity training, they lived on a planet with 10x gravity, and have the zenkai power, all which don't count as normal training energy growth.

There is no proof that Tien received a higher percentage increase from his training than Goku did, you're just assuming that.

But you're right "real world" logic really shouldn't be used in the Dragonworld to this extent, so I'm pretty much done using mathematics and equations to answer things that never had a though out answer to begin with.

[Drunken Master]

But...he was already dead. You can't almost die, when you're already dead.

I'm not assuming that he gained more power, I mean it's pretty much stated in the manga...You even quoted the evidence.

Goku trained with Kami for 3 years. I don't know the increase, cause I don't know the power levels, but the Daizenshuu lists them. Tenshinhan trains with Kami, at a higher power level for a lot less time. Not even a year, how many months was it before Nappa and Vegeta would arrive? Anyhow, they even finished early, and Ten went from 250 to 1,830. That's a way bigger increase. There's no assuming in that, it's fact.

The same would apply to Ten's North Kaio training. Then add the harder training, the sparring partners, the way longer training period, how fast Piccolo got strong, and Yamcha not be able to move well in 10x gravity at around 1400 and it's just looking good for Tenshinhan to be WAY past 11,000.

[Forgotten Hero]

Something funny, I remember when Kuririn used the Kienzan on Kid Buu. Of course it does work or help in anyway, but Yamcha says something to the extend "Ah, it would have work on any other guy." I'm not sure how true that statement is, but I'm sure it would have work on a lot powerful guys. Like our fellow member Snail says:

Thinking strategically, a nice Solar Flare + Kienzan Disc combo can do wonders against Freeza.

I think he is right!

[Xyex]

I get that you're a Tien fan. Hell, so am I. But at certain points you just have to step back and look at things objectively. It's stated during Dragonball that as you get stronger it becomes harder to get stronger, the same training will not yield the same levels of increases, etc. This is fact. So as you gain in power you have to push harder just to match the gains you made before. Hell, this is part of the reason Kaioken and Super Saiya-jin exist. The characters just couldn't get that strong that fast without them.

Now, it's true that Tien had an advantage going into both the training with Kami and the training with King Kai. That being, training partners. He could train with Yamcha and Chaotzu in both instances which would help with boosting his results from the training than if he were to train solo. But even replicating the gains he made with Kami while on King Kai's that still puts him at 13,000 post King Kai.

However, there's the added benefit of the increased gravity. So, we'll work that into things as well. With that Goku went from 416 to about 8,000. A 19.2x increase. Factoring in the extra time Tien stayed there, his sparring partners, and the fact he started off stronger I would say a 15x increase (27,450) would be the absolute maximum, but likely stretching it, if only a little. However, let's use that number from here on, just to go with the best possible.

So, we've got Tien coming back shortly before Trunks arrives. He's at 27,450. Trunks comes and they get the warning. Tien heads off to train with just Chaotzu (who's probably in the 6 or 7 thousands so a non factor as far as sparing) and no extra benefits like Kami or increased gravity or anything special. Where can he go from there?

According to the Daizenshuu he went from 180 at the 22nd to 250 8 years later. An increase of 1.38~x. But I'm going to use my numbers for this, they give him a little more credit. With those he went from 115 to 250 in 8 years, about a 2.2x increase. Now, obviously he's going to be training a lot harder than he did in those 8 years, however he's also stronger so his training wont be nearly effective. An increase of about 1.8x to 2x is likely in these conditions, consdiering he's also got less than half the time to train, but I'll once again go with the greatest possible maximum and use 2.2x once again.

So, we go from 27,450 to a new level of 60,390. Well, that's pretty good actually. All things considered. I mean, he's not getting the shortcuts that Goku and Vegeta got with their Zenkai abuse on Namek. So these are exceptional gains. Especially when considering that the human race is presented as highly skilled but not highly powerful and Tien is now cappable of one shoting the likes of the Ginyu Force (minus Ginyu), something achieved by Goku and Vegeta only via extreme conditions.

Alright. So, we've now got a Tien of 60,390. A Tien that passes on RoSaT training before the Cell Games. Once again he goes off to train on his own (at this point Chaotzu's really a non factor in his training) for 7 years now. He doesn't have the drive to surpass Goku anymore. He doesn't have the threat of imminent death to fight against. He's just training for the sake of training.

Again, let's go with the utmost stretching of his possible gains for this span of time. If a gain of 2.2x is him pushing himself, driven to survive, over three years what would a more relaxed amount of training over 7 years produce? Well, I don't really see him slacking that much in his training, truthfully, despite the lack of imminent death as a motivation. But he would still train a little less rigorously and he is stronger so his gains would drop for that reason. So, let's say about... 2x for the 7 years.

That's a final Buu Saga total of 120,780. Or about even with Ginyu. Which is pretty damned good. Don't let the absurdly over powered characters get you mixed up. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo... they're all well beyond normal. Well beyond natural. This is emphasised greatly in the Buu Saga when it's shown that the Saiya-jins are all more powerful than the Supreme Kai, of all people.

Those top fighters are abberations with powers that are inately absurd in nature. Powers that defy explanation and shouldn't really be possible. Forget about them. Forget about the Saiya-jins and Zenkais and Super Saiya-jin and Namekian fusion and transformations and Freeza and think about the rest of the universe. The Ginyu Force, greatest fighters in the entire universe. The strongest of them now has a match in Tien.

Despite what the SSJ/2/3's and the twice fused Piccolo would lead you to believe that 120,000 is amazing. It's the best of the best of the 'normal people' of the universe. The people that can't get power out of their asses.

[Forgotten Hero]

Were you talking to me?

[Super 17]

I think he was talking to Drunken Master. Anyway yeah Tenshinhan in no doubt can beat the whole Ginyu Squad. Also I know this is filler, but is Garlic Junior and his men weaker, about the same or stronger than the Ginyu Force? Either way Tenshinhan can beat them alll except for the main villains, androids, and Dabura.

[Forgotten Hero]

I think he was talking to Drunken Master. Anyway yeah Tenshinhan in no doubt can beat the whole Ginyu Squad. Also I know this is filler, but is Garlic Junior and his men weaker, about the same or stronger than the Ginyu Force? Either way Tenshinhan can beat them alll except for the main villains, androids, and Dabura.

Yeah, I think you are right. Tien can beat every villain up to Freeza, but can beat the Garlic Jr. henchman.

[Victator Supreme]

But...he was already dead. You can't almost die, when you're already dead.

Vegeta did fighting Kid Buu.

[SSJ2bardock]

I just don't understand why Tien beating Ginyu doesn't seem feasible to a lot of people. Tien at his peak during the series is probably the strongest non Golden haired/green skinned character.

[Xyex]

I think he was talking to Drunken Master.

Yeah, mainly. Though also to everyone else in the "Tien could one shot Ginyu and fight evenly with Freeza" camp. Hell, even if you're talking 1st form Freeza that's still way out of the realm of possibility. That's not to say that a Buu era tri-beam couldn't kill 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd form Freeza. But I don't think it'd do much more against 100% Freeza than it did against Nappa.

Also I know this is filler, but is Garlic Junior and his men weaker, about the same or stronger than the Ginyu Force?

It's impossible to tell. As is typical with Toei they put very little thought into the powers of the actual fighters. Krillin and Gohan both do about the same against them despite a pretty sizeable gap in their powers now.

EDIT

I just don't understand why Tenshinhan beating Ginyu doesn't seem feasible to a lot of people. Tenshinhan at his peak during the series is probably the strongest non Golden haired/green skinned character.

Sure. He's the strongest non Saiya-jin non Piccolo character. And Ginyu was the second strongest being in the universe until Goku and Vegeta Zenkai abused their way passed him and Piccolo fused his way passed him. Tien gets neither of these leg-ups in power gains. He's got to go the old fashioned way. Being anywhere near Ginyu's power is a quite the accomplishment in such conditions. Especially since the biggest 'leg up' he got for power gains was his time with King Kai, which likely started to really lose effectiveness pretty quickly.

[SSJ2bardock]

Now that I'm thinking about it a little deeper I can see how people are saying he couldn't be as strong as Ginyu. However, I still think he would beat him in a fight because Ten has lots of cool techniques he can use!

[Forgotten Hero]

We will never how strong Tien was, but I think out of all the non-saiyajin and nameks he was the strongest man in the universe.

[Super 17]

We will never how strong Tenshinhan was, but I think out of all the non-saiyajin and nameks he was the strongest man in the universe.

Wait wouldn't it be Uub? Or is he not human because Majin Buu was made out of magic?

[Xyex]

Now that I'm thinking about it a little deeper I can see how people are saying he couldn't be as strong as Ginyu. However, I still think he would beat him in a fight because Ten has lots of cool techniques he can use!

Oh, sure. So long as Ginyu didn't decide to body-swap Tien would win simply due to skill. A tri-beam to the face from Buu era Tien would remove Ginyu's head without any issues what-so-ever. Hell, if you put him even in power with anyone, with the possible exception of Piccolo, he could kick their asses due to skill.

[Forgotten Hero]

We will never how strong Tenshinhan was, but I think out of all the non-saiyajin and nameks he was the strongest man in the universe.

Wait wouldn't it be Uub? Or is he not human because Majin Buu was made out of magic?

Oh yeah!! *Smack myself!*
Second strongest human!

[Rocketman]

But...he was already dead. You can't almost die, when you're already dead.

This is apparently extremely common, so...

Zenkai does not rely on 'near-death'. Zenaki relies on 'very, very, very damaged', and that happens to coincide with being near to death normally. Natural reactions do not have a conscious force behind them to say "technically, you are unable to die, so the phrase 'near-death' as defined in your contract article 156, section PEN-15, line 8008 does not come into effect".

[Super 17]

But...he was already dead. You can't almost die, when you're already dead.

This is apparently extremely common, so...

Zenkai does not rely on 'near-death'. Zenaki relies on 'very, very, very damaged', and that happens to coincide with being near to death normally. Natural reactions do not have a conscious force behind them to say "technically, you are unable to die, so the phrase 'near-death' as defined in your contract article 156, section PEN-15, line 8008 does not come into effect".

I always thought that.